And in the interests of rereailing the thread...Racism has only ever been a factor in one of my games and that was Anti Mutant hysteria in a Marvel supes campaign.

Other than that and it just doesn't factor into things.

Quote from: jhkimI was part of the set who were screaming about the Taliban prior to 2001 -- but at the time we were generally dismissed as bleeding-heart liberals because our top complaints included their oppression of women and destruction of Buddhist and other cultural relics.

Out of curiosity, what were you screaming to do to the Taliban prior to 2001?  Would you have supported an invasion?  More cruise missiles?  UN sanctions?  A protest march?  And who exactly was doing the dismissing?  I'm seriously interested in what you have in mind here.

Quote from: jhkimFor that matter, I was also part of the set who were screaming about the horrors Saddam Hussein at the time when we were dealing arms to him in order to fund the Sandinistas.  And at the time we again were dismissed as idealists who didn't know what we were talking about.

Uh, Oliver North funded the Contras against the Sandanistas and it was primarily arms sales to Iran and not Iraq that were the issue at the time (that's why the scandal was called "Iran-Contra" not "Iraq-Sandanista").  At the time liberals seemed far more concerned about stopping funding to the Contras than anything Saddam was doing.  As for that whole issue, I suggest taking a look at the recent presidential election in Nicaragua and the role Oliver North played in the results and think about what that means with respect to how many of the people of Nicaragua view Oliver North and his rogue funding of the Contras.

On the other hand, I do agree with you about attacking all Muslims for the sins of the militants.  Not smart.  Not good.

Ugh.  Alright, hasty and ill-thought reply -- though I think the preceding post was worse.  

Quote from: John MorrowOut of curiosity, what were you screaming to do to the Taliban prior to 2001?  Would you have supported an invasion?  More cruise missiles?  UN sanctions?  A protest march?  And who exactly was doing the dismissing?  I'm seriously interested in what you have in mind here.

An invasion of Afghanistan in the nineties?  Hell, no.  I'm well convinced that pre-emptive invasion is a stupid idea in general -- and I didn't think much of the cruise missles, either.  (As far as foreign policy, Clinton was clearly a step down from Bush Sr., in my opinion -- but we all pretty much knew that at the election.)  I did support stronger sanctions, along the lines of what was successful on South Africa.  And diplomatic efforts to cut off their lines of support.  

Quote from: John MorrowOn the other hand, I do agree with you about attacking all Muslims for the sins of the militants.  Not smart.  Not good.

Yes, well, here we agree.  Obviously I was grasping with the Iran-Contra stuff, which I was in grade school during.  I didn't know much about Nicaragua one way or the other at the time -- what enraged me was the blatant gun-running to militant muslims.

Quote from: jhkimUgh.  Alright, hasty and ill-thought reply -- though I think the preceding post was worse.

Agreed.  Thanks for the answers (seriously, not sarcasm).

Could we perhaps move the political and religious stuff to another thread? And yeah, I know I was partly responsible for creating it.

Has anyone seen a game with mechanics for racism? I've seen systems with random NPC generators that have a chance at rolling up racist. Also mutants in MSH start with much lower popularity than everyone else.

Quote from: James McMurrayHas anyone seen a game with mechanics for racism?

At least one of the old D&D or AD&D books included a table for how the various races felt about each other.

True. I'd forgotten those. I know AD&D (1e) had them. 2e may have politically corrected them into oblivion, I don't recall. I have to assume Hackmaster has something similar.

Quote from: James McMurrayCould we perhaps move the political and religious stuff to another thread? And yeah, I know I was partly responsible for creating it.

Has anyone seen a game with mechanics for racism? I've seen systems with random NPC generators that have a chance at rolling up racist. Also mutants in MSH start with much lower popularity than everyone else.

I've seen a short bit of rules for shadowrun at one time.... second edition I think, that were about specific prejudices that NPC's... and PC's.... could have.  You could randomly roll it and it had...AFAIK levels of hatred.

But really, once you get past the fact that the racial groupings are completely made up, Shadowrun is the most openly racist game there.  Elves are 'dandylion eaters' Orks and Trolls are openly reviled as 'Trogs', dwarves are 'Stumpy' and ghouls...well they have a hard time even lobbying for basic human rights.  If the other premises of the game were more serious it would be THE game to study the impacts of racism in a gaming environment.

Quote from: SpikeBut really, once you get past the fact that the racial groupings are completely made up, Shadowrun is the most openly racist game there.  Elves are 'dandylion eaters' Orks and Trolls are openly reviled as 'Trogs', dwarves are 'Stumpy' and ghouls...well they have a hard time even lobbying for basic human rights.  If the other premises of the game were more serious it would be THE game to study the impacts of racism in a gaming environment.

Well, Shadowrun is really just borrowing the same tropes that appear in most fantasy games.  For example, orcs are actually considerably more accepted in Shadowrun than they are in most fantasy worlds.  It's simply the fact that Shadowrun is otherwise like the modern world that reminds one that this is racism.

Quote from: Dominus NoxHmm, just out of curiousity, do you also object to terms like "Honkie" and "cracker"?

I don't.  I just find the terms kind of silly - not offensive.  Other racial slurs that could be used against me, like "mick", don't do much for me, either.  I think, in general, the average white guy probably doesn't get as upset because his people didn't have generations of abuse and being treated like less of a person.

There are exceptions, though.  One of my Korean friends in college used to use the term "DAWBER" to get a rise out of his roommate - another friend (a white guy).  It stood for "Dumb Ass White Boys Eating Rice" - an Asian version of WIGGER, perhaps (he has an odd sense of humor).  When their friendship went south, my Korean friend actually had to have a talk with the dean in charge of multi-cultural affairs because the guy reported him as making "racist attacks".

As for my games, I can't recall a time when racial tension came into play (even though I usually use a fairly multi-cultural cast of NPCs).

Quote from: jhkimWell, Shadowrun is really just borrowing the same tropes that appear in most fantasy games.  For example, orcs are actually considerably more accepted in Shadowrun than they are in most fantasy worlds.  It's simply the fact that Shadowrun is otherwise like the modern world that reminds one that this is racism.

Well, I stated on another thread that today is my 'bone headedly inarticulate day' for posting.  Yes your point has merit, but shadowrun brings the racism to the forefront, with groups like Humanis policlubs, Mother Of Metahumans (MOM), and more.  The Setting is explicitly racist, which jars horribly with the way it is so often played.  While I am sure there is a far more racist game out there, Shadowrun's handling of it is from the perspective of 'this shit exists' rather than 'this shit is good'.  Extrapolation of fantasy tropes or not.