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Attributes for Female Characters in a Campaign

Started by SHARK, August 03, 2021, 05:13:59 PM

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SHARK

Greetings!

I have long considered the merits of creating specific attribute caps and modifiers for female characters in the game, especially Human women.

Human Female Attribute Table

Strength: Capped at 14.
Dexterity: +2
Constitution: Capped at 16
Intelligence: --
Wisdom: +1
Charisma: +2

Attribute Caps refer to the female character's ability being capped. No penalties are actually applied to specific attribute dice rolls--they are just resized to the cap if they roll higher, for example. If the female character rolls lower for the particular attribute, the score remains, as there is no actively applied penalty.

Strength: I've read that contrary to current popular culture and brainwashing--even the best, most uber female athletes are only generally as strong as an average fit man. Some studies suggest about a 60% achievement in strength. Even in the highest brackets of competition and achievement--the best and strongest women absolutely pale in comparison to the elite men. There really is no comparison. At best, a strong woman can aspire to be as strong as or moderately stronger than an average, fit adult man.

Constitution: Aside from women's ability to endure childbirth, and resist long-term, lethal illnesses, it seems that they are distinctly and consistently weaker than men throughout life in a plethora of ways, dealing with Constitution. Women have huge rates of chronic injuries compared ro men. Throughout life, women also become plagued by debilitating non-lethal illnesses and diseases at a significantly higher rate than men. Women routinely experience muscle, joint, and bone problems, again, at a significantly higher rate than men.

Dexterity: I think on average, even typical women can often display superior characteristics of coordination and flexibility than men. Higher professional levels, well, women can move their bodies in truly impossible ways compared to men. I've seen Chinese gymnasts bend their bodies in half, and put their ass on top of their head. Jaw-dropping feats of dexterity. ;D

Wisdom: I think while there are many common examples of plentiful stupidity and poor judgment--on balance, women's historical collectivistic tendencies, attraction to herd mentality, deference to authority and being obedient, aversion to risk-taking, lower rates of criminal behavior, combined with hyper-concerns for security, safety, provisions, and resource management, provides women with a general advantage in wisdom compared to men. Then, there is also the hstorical testimony and widespread beliefs in women having different spiritual abilities and enhanced mystical awareness compared to men, across widely different cultures. For thousands of years, everyone seems to agree that women have some kind of special mystical consciousness.

Charisma: Research shows as well as numerous examples of everyday observation, even ordinary women possess significant social advantages compared to men. They talk and express themselves easier, pick up on social cues and non-verbal communication with far greater skill and accuracy than average men. Really beautiful and smooth women can be stellar, and absolutely amazing and mind-bogglingly dangerous as well. Perhaps the funny thing is, so many women can engage in higher socialization while making it look supremely easy, and effortless to do. They engage in such communication and socialization like breathing air.

What do you all think, friends? I have heretofore mostly just gone by the book, and handwaved it all as fantasy. Keeping things simple and straightforward has its attractions, after all. I think though that having some discussion and consideration of such topics has some merit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

trechriron

I don't think limiting attributes by sex is useful or needed. These are fantasy games. IF a player wants to choose particular attributes OR when rolling randomly, decides they are a certain sex, then all power to them.

These sort of "stereotypes and scientific stats" are good for someone studying anthropology (biological anthropology is a thing!). But in a fantasy game? Why try to enforce it? There are too many exceptions in reality to determine that "the common person" has different stats based on sex.

I believe that prevailing attitudes clearly demonstrate people are over sex-based and race-based attribute standards. It gives fuel to people spewing bigoted anti-trans and anti-gender ideology. It enforces stereotypes. It's a fantasy game. We don't need to be stereotypical. Let that be in the purview of player choice as an element of the character vs. something "baked in" to the rules.
Trentin C Bergeron (trechriron)
Bard, Creative & RPG Enthusiast

----------------------------------------------------------------------
D.O.N.G. Black-Belt (Thanks tenbones!)

Trond


Trond

Being a bit more serious, I think it makes sense in "realistic" settings, and even more so if you're playing e.g. Medieval or Renaissance periods, where women were supposed to do completely different things from men.

I agree that STR is a no-brainer, it's not even close on average. I can see the CHA argument, particularly in Western Society, though in some cultures women are not taken seriously in certain contexts. The CON thing is tricky though; women are generally more resistant to some diseases and live longer than men (though part of this has to do with men's risk-taking). On the other hand, a man would be able to take more physical damage than a woman (men's bones are literally thicker for instance). So if CON is only used for purposes of violence and such it makes sense for men to be higher in that regard, but not in every other sense.

SHARK

Quote from: Trond on August 03, 2021, 06:38:34 PM
This is super controversial......





I love it :D

Greetings!

I thought you would love it, Trond! ;D

Good stuff! It is definitely fun to consider. Especially all of the "inconvenient truths" that emerge from research that contradicts the established ideology and dogma.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Shasarak

Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 05:13:59 PM
Constitution: Aside from women's ability to endure childbirth, and resist long-term, lethal illnesses, it seems that they are distinctly and consistently weaker than men throughout life in a plethora of ways, dealing with Constitution. Women have huge rates of chronic injuries compared ro men. Throughout life, women also become plagued by debilitating non-lethal illnesses and diseases at a significantly higher rate than men. Women routinely experience muscle, joint, and bone problems, again, at a significantly higher rate than men.

Except for all these ways that woman have better Constitution then men, I am going to give them lower constitution?

???
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

There will be poor always,
pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Steven Mitchell

As I said in the other thread, don't cap and don't add on the upper end.  Instead, boost the low stats differently for males and females, after the stats are otherwise set.  Of course, you have to keep the stats somewhat reasonable for that to work.  It really helps when not many people period are getting into the 16-18 range.

Using your categories, a male character with a lousy Str or Con boost whichever is lowest.  (I'd expand that list a little to Dex or Cha for a character that already had Str and Con in the positives but Dex or Cha in the negatives, but you could also see this as a way of giving the male a lot better shot at a 16+ in both of them.)  Meanwhile, a female character with lousy Wis, Dex, or Cha gets a boost to whichever is lowest. 

Jam The MF

No caps, but how about Modifiers instead?

Strength -3
Dexterity +1
Constitution +1
Intelligence -1
Wisdom +1
Charisma +2

Yeah, that feels about right.

(Yeah, that's what she said....)
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

SHARK

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 03, 2021, 07:05:16 PM
No caps, but how about Modifiers instead?

Strength -3
Dexterity +1
Constitution +1
Intelligence -1
Wisdom +1
Charisma +2

Yeah, that feels about right.

(Yeah, that's what she said....)

Greetings!

Hey Jam The MF! ;D Yeah, I like the attribute arrangement you have here too! It seems quite reasonable to me.

Interestingly, when I have discussed these things with *normal* women--not SJW Feminists--the normal women all tend to solidly agree with such assessments.

Having such attribute modifiers definitely appeals to my sense of verisimilitude.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Steven Mitchell

My acid test for gender modifiers to stats is that there is a character generation option that is completely random, such that any player could end up with anything, include either gender.  If the gender modifiers survive that, then the players can tolerate them.  They rarely do.  For some bizarre reason, people are a lot more indulgent of Elves with a Str penalty than the human female with one, even if it leads to similar class choices.

BTW, in games where I use picked stats, point buy, etc., or even Fantasy Hero or GURPS, and I want some degree of realism--then my only rule is that your stats have to be reflected in your personality, appearance, and play.  I kid you not, I had one campaign where three different ladies lowered their Str score because they didn't want to look "that muscle bound".  I had to talk one of them out of lowering a very modest score for that reason by finding a picture of an athletic but not body building female to give them an idea of what that Str looked like. :D

SHARK

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 03, 2021, 07:34:38 PM
My acid test for gender modifiers to stats is that there is a character generation option that is completely random, such that any player could end up with anything, include either gender.  If the gender modifiers survive that, then the players can tolerate them.  They rarely do.  For some bizarre reason, people are a lot more indulgent of Elves with a Str penalty than the human female with one, even if it leads to similar class choices.

BTW, in games where I use picked stats, point buy, etc., or even Fantasy Hero or GURPS, and I want some degree of realism--then my only rule is that your stats have to be reflected in your personality, appearance, and play.  I kid you not, I had one campaign where three different ladies lowered their Str score because they didn't want to look "that muscle bound".  I had to talk one of them out of lowering a very modest score for that reason by finding a picture of an athletic but not body building female to give them an idea of what that Str looked like. :D

Greetings!

Very interesting, Steven! Yeah, for many women, having sex appeal and an overall satisfying feminine appearance is absolutely priority NUMBER 1! *laughing* Everything else be damned! "What? My girl has bulging muscles? Ewww! Lets reduce her strength, please!" I can totally see that as a reaction! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Steven Mitchell

Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 07:42:20 PM
Greetings!

Very interesting, Steven! Yeah, for many women, having sex appeal and an overall satisfying feminine appearance is absolutely priority NUMBER 1! *laughing* Everything else be damned! "What? My girl has bulging muscles? Ewww! Lets reduce her strength, please!" I can totally see that as a reaction! ;D


Another way to get a similar dynamic is to add a Size attribute, similar to Runequest.  Then tie some of the traditional Str things to Size.  Alternately, just let them specify their size and adjudicate appropriately as the GM, since big and small have pros and cons by situation.  In that style of play, your Str has an implied "for your size" modifier.

In my system that I'm play testing, I've got a cat race that is about halfling size.  One of the players got a random 18 Str on one.  So the strongest character in the part is a female, 50 pound cat.  She's very strong for such a cat.  But when she had to pull the 7 foot muscle bound barbarian wolfman out of a trap, I gave her a big penalty on the roll and only let her attempt it at all because there was a stone ledge that she could use to brace herself.  No one had any problem with that, and it created a cool moment where the whole party had to determine how to help from there, at some risks to themselves.  On the other hand, if she falls and needs to grab the edge of a pit to pull herself up, I'm giving her a bonus.

Kyle Aaron

Stupid idea. If you want to talk about realism, cool, bring me your PHB, DMG and MM, I'll tear out all the spells, magic items and monsters other than men and animals.

Just roll 3d6 in order and you get what you get.
The Viking Hat GM
Conflict, the adventure game of modern warfare
Wastrel Wednesdays, livestream with Dungeondelver

SHARK

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on August 03, 2021, 07:52:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 07:42:20 PM
Greetings!

Very interesting, Steven! Yeah, for many women, having sex appeal and an overall satisfying feminine appearance is absolutely priority NUMBER 1! *laughing* Everything else be damned! "What? My girl has bulging muscles? Ewww! Lets reduce her strength, please!" I can totally see that as a reaction! ;D


Another way to get a similar dynamic is to add a Size attribute, similar to Runequest.  Then tie some of the traditional Str things to Size.  Alternately, just let them specify their size and adjudicate appropriately as the GM, since big and small have pros and cons by situation.  In that style of play, your Str has an implied "for your size" modifier.

In my system that I'm play testing, I've got a cat race that is about halfling size.  One of the players got a random 18 Str on one.  So the strongest character in the part is a female, 50 pound cat.  She's very strong for such a cat.  But when she had to pull the 7 foot muscle bound barbarian wolfman out of a trap, I gave her a big penalty on the roll and only let her attempt it at all because there was a stone ledge that she could use to brace herself.  No one had any problem with that, and it created a cool moment where the whole party had to determine how to help from there, at some risks to themselves.  On the other hand, if she falls and needs to grab the edge of a pit to pull herself up, I'm giving her a bonus.

Greetings!

Having a SIZE stat. That's interesting, Steven Mitchell. I like that. It seems to allow for an easy process of modifiers for other considerations.

Did the wolf man survive? I have wolf-humanoids in my campaign as well!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Trond

Quote from: SHARK on August 03, 2021, 07:42:20 PM


Greetings!

Very interesting, Steven! Yeah, for many women, having sex appeal and an overall satisfying feminine appearance is absolutely priority NUMBER 1! *laughing* Everything else be damned! "What? My girl has bulging muscles? Ewww! Lets reduce her strength, please!" I can totally see that as a reaction! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Can confirm. I had a girl player whose character had a massive strength, and I asked "oh, cool, so maybe she looks like one of those Russian weightlifter women?", and she went "noooo!" as if it was the end of the world :D