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Author Topic: At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?  (Read 2959 times)

Chris24601

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2019, 04:27:31 PM »
I'd say it depends a bit on the campaign premise. Sometimes you want everything strictly within the limits of what a human in the real world could do (ex. a no-magic "real world" campaign). Other times you want mortal heroes to be Batman in a Justice League comic where dodging the inescapable Omega Beams of a physical god and turning a world-destroying McGuffin back on the "Ender of Worlds" is not only possible, but all but assured by sheer badassery.

Dimitrios

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2019, 05:32:59 PM »
Around 10th for me as well, which is around what used to be "name level" in AD&D.

One of the more momentous decisions they made with 3e (and I wonder if they were clear on how momentous it was) was to flatten out the progression curve so that high level play (18-20) became common instead of rare. D&D was always in many ways a different game at high level.

PrometheanVigil

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2019, 12:15:23 PM »
Quote from: Rhedyn;1076183
A good power level is when the system is an interesting game but not yet bogged down in crunch.

Quote from: tenbones;1076224
I want my systems to handle from this: [pic]

to players doing this [pic]

with the most minimal of mechanical fiddling possible. Somewhere between these poles 5e loses coherence mechanically to do this due to its adherence to sacred cows more than by intention on the part of actual good design.

Quote from: EOTB;1076256
The problem with high level play is that it requires more of both the player and the DM than the "sweet spot".  Kind of like how Algebra 1 is the "sweet spot" for math, for most people.

1. Well, you'll be happy to know a system exists where each sub-system is loosely coupled leading to minimal fiddly-ness but high-level characters casually tearing enemies apart.

2. You can "juggle" enemies in this system. It's quite satisfying. That's really what good high-lvl play is all about.

3. You'll be happy to know you can quickly and easily calc your stats with basic BODMAS in the system. It's cool to see the power-level rise in "real-time", too.

SHAMELESS PLUG ASIDE...

...onto the question. (hahahahahah)

Quote from: Razor 007;1076179
Where would you draw the line, if at all?

I've found higher level play is dependent on the players at the table and the system itself. A player's particular approach to RPGs primarily determines if they'll get anything out of the interpretation of high-level play that the system has.

NWOD can get pretty crazy at high-levels but the math doesn't necessarily break down as much as there's no way lower level enemies can take high-level PCs. Even though it was apparently toned way down from OWOD, Werewolves are still Dimension Door'ing at-will while Geists are RESURRECTION'ing just as a basic feature. Many players of this system IME though don't usually care for the mechanical power in a D&D or HERO sense, moreso the capacity for narrative power.

I am particularly fond of SOTDL's approach but that's because it's implementation of classes is far more fluid from the ground-up. You don't need to have calculated a particular leveling strategy to have a strong character (although certain combinations can definitely turn your character OP in certain situations). This coupled with the fact that the magic level in the game is slanted towards low-powered (equiv to 3.5e 4th-5th w/ a few 6th exceptions) means PCs never become unto gods.

Also, SOTDL caps out at lvl 10 (having started at lvl 0) in RAW. They become pretty badass but there are still plenty of things out there that can squash em' if they're not extremely careful. The PCs definitely feel more like actual "adventurers" as a result, akin to elite mercenaries at the top-end.

Quote from: EOTB;1076256
But high level play almost purposely thwarts what DMs try to do with it, because they don't understand that only someone without agency would allow themselves to end up in a movie-like situation.

Kind of. At that level of play, your character's basic life is a movie in and of itself -- possibly an Oscar winning one! Now, if you're talking about some anime crap, that's different, I can entirely get on-board with that opinion. You tend to see this problem at far more with GMs who just "start" their group at high-level without ever having actually taken a group from first level to twentieth.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 12:17:33 PM by PrometheanVigil »
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Spinachcat

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2019, 12:54:09 PM »
You should do a thread in Design & Development discussing SITREP. AKA, shameless promotion, but with discussion of what your system does and why people should play it. Links to actual play are good too.

S'mon

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2019, 02:39:58 PM »
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1076390
Kind of. At that level of play, your character's basic life is a movie in and of itself -- possibly an Oscar winning one! Now, if you're talking about some anime crap, that's different

He was talking about 1e AD&D :D - scry/buff/teleport et al.

Shasarak

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2019, 05:40:47 PM »
I like high level DnD having the party being able to team up and take down Orcus or Gazzt or Demogorgon.

It gives you something to look forward to when your characters are knee deep in mud and Kobolds.
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jhkim

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2019, 07:11:02 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
For D&D, I don't care for much past 9th level or so. Partly, I think this is from the rules getting increasingly fiddly and bloated for higher levels - tracking multiple feats, modifiers, and so forth. It's more an issue of rules bloat than power level, though power level can get tricky.

For example, I'm good with pulp campaigns with the likes of Flash Gordon or Tarzan who take on superhuman foes. But even then, there are limits to believability. One of the potential problems of D&D can be a fighter falling 200 feet onto hard rocks and get up fighting.
Quote from: S'mon;1076301
Pulp heroes wouldn't die from a fall - they would survive somehow. So 70 damage in 1e seems fine to me. For 4e and 5e the damage is out of wack with the pc durability so I prefer 1 point damage per foot fallen, enough to kill low level and squishy pcs.
As far as heroes in real pulp stories - they would probably survive - but they wouldn't survive by just taking the damage. The story would arrange some coincidence which saves them - a passing plane, or a pool of water, or whatever. There needs to be some explanation other than just being tough and experienced heroes.

S'mon

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 01:44:11 AM »
Quote from: jhkim;1076418
As far as heroes in real pulp stories - they would probably survive - but they wouldn't survive by just taking the damage. The story would arrange some coincidence which saves them - a passing plane, or a pool of water, or whatever. There needs to be some explanation other than just being tough and experienced heroes.

Well yes - read Gygax's 1e DMG description of the chained Fighter making his save vs dragon breath - the DM is supposed to narrate some reason for survival, such as bouncing off cliff into the pool of water. Player could also narrate a reason though this isn't in the DMG.

Chris24601

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2019, 08:35:42 AM »
This is why we redid the falling rules. Instead of plunging to the bottom, as long you have hit points left after the falling damage you instead end up clinging to the edge of whatever you would have fallen from (unless you wanted to fall because of what's below). It takes advantage of "hit points aren't meat" and instead you're burning your luck to be in a position where a successful climb check can get you back in the action.

ArtemisAlpha

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2019, 09:37:36 AM »
For me, it really depends on the game and the setting. I have run supers games, and I'm currently running a Naruto-ish ninjas game (but I repeat myself), and in games like those I'm fine with, and indeed want, the characters to regularly be performing superhuman feats. I'm also currently running a Call of Cthulhu game - where the characters are decidedly very much human, and I would not be happy if they were performing at more than what we all determined was a proper level for people who were competent professionals in their respective fields. Somewhere between is the Shadowrun game I'll be starting soon - yes there's magic, yes there's people who have bodies enhanced by magic or cybernetics - but I wouldn't be expecting them to perform like the ninjas in the first game, even as they consistently outperform the "normal men and women" from my Call of Cthulhu game.

Which is all a preamble to my answer as it pertains to D&D - it depends on the campaign that I'm interested in running and my players are interested in. I've run games that we all agree will have a maximum level of 6, I've run a lot of games that just come to a natural conclusion somewhere between 8-10th level, and recently we ran a game to 12th level. It's been a long time since I've run a game that went higher than that - so empirically, I can say that in D&D we prefer our games to top out at 12th level. But in our games, we don't generally aim for a specific max level.

BeholderThief

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At what point, do you prefer the mortal pc power curve to top out, level wise?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2019, 12:24:06 AM »
For mortal PC's, I like the scale used in B/X or ACKS. 14th level sounds like a good pinnacle  of mortal character power. At that level characters are powerful and have no fear of any common threat, but still within the upper limits of mortal capability (they are not quite demigod level yet).

This is primarily due to the reduction of hit point accumulation, reduced acquisition of higher level spells and fundamental rules used in the game (I'd probably prefer a limit of 10th level in 5E, for example).

Psikerlord

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Around 10th for me. Which in older dnd and some later ones that PCs can acquire followers/castles etc and presumably retire as successful adventurers. They made it.
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Where do I prefer the mortal PC power curve top out? Somewhere around Indiana Jones, maybe maxing out around Conan beating up a giant ape, serpent or weird elephant headed man. Whatever level that is.

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Well, in my OSR campaigns, typically I like worlds where a 9th level character is extremely powerful, and the most powerful characters in the world are maybe 14-16th.
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Quote from: tenbones;1076224
If we're talking D&D - the natural progression of the game will dictate that around 10th... and only grow more ridiculous post 10th.

If you're talking about nonD&D - my stipulation is I want "low-level" monsters/NPC's to always pose some kind of threat. D&D isn't really designed for that implicitly these days.


You can get that in Lion & Dragon.
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Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.