Quote from: James Gillen;537949But if you read Spirit of the Century it's pretty obvious that it starts from a premise that is kind of science fiction in itself

SotC seems to be mimicking the comic books of the 1930's more than the men's adventure fiction.

Quote from: The Butcher;538017I still want to track down whoever came up with the "pulp is not gritty" meme and kick him in the nuts.

Amen, brother!

And while I'm here...You MUST run 2FT. You will not regret it.

Quote from: The Butcher;538017Spot-on regarding the medium vs. genre confusion. When people say "pulp RPG" what they usually mean is "pulp men's adventure RPG" which is the genre that best describes masked crime-fighters, globe-trotting adventurers, daring ace aviators and other stalwarts of "pulp" gaming.

I get where you're coming from; however, I think what we've got here is a bit of language evolution. You're entirely correct that "pulp" is a medium, not a genre... and yet, in gamer parlance, I would argue that it has become a genre of sorts. I think we can agree that unless you preface "pulp" with "horror," "fantasy," or the like, when applied to an RPG, gamers are going to expect 1930s two-fisted action.

Quote from: The Butcher;538017I actually think BRP is a good fit, because pulp men's adventure stories were never about bullet-proof heroes. Sure, they had "plot immunity" (which most action point systems do a fine job of representing, in a limited degree, while assuring the game remains challenging enough to be interesting). 2FT has a very convincing screed on why a pulp men's adventure RPG can feature lethal combat and remain faithful to the genre.

I still want to track down whoever came up with the "pulp is not gritty" meme and kick him in the nuts.

I've picked up a copy of 2FT but I have yet to run it. Looks like a good, dependable, solid system, and actually one that's conductive to more than "men's adventure" pulp (the one pulp genre gamers usually mean when they say "pulp RPG"; masked crime-fighters, globe-trotting adventurers, etc.). BRP has the advantage of being a known quantity, though 2FT is easy to grasp and its novelty is no deal-breaker.

Will this book require the BRP Core big gold book, or is it a stand-alone RPG?

2FT does go the extra mile to emulate actual pulp stories. As it points out, Doc Savage wouldn't leap into action if someone got the drop on him.

Still, having played the game, I found that 2FT may have gone too far in the other direction: the heroes are so fragile that being as daring as Doc in the first place seems suicidal. I did manage to mitigate this by becoming a lot more generous with the number of cards I handed out.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;538092I would argue that it has become a genre of sorts. I think we can agree that unless you preface "pulp" with "horror," "fantasy," or the like, when applied to an RPG, gamers are going to expect 1930s two-fisted action.

I think the common gamer usage of 'pulp' has about as much to do with the actual pulps as 'punk' (as in Clockpunk, Lacepunk, Dungeonpunk...) has to do with punk rock... yet they attach it to loads of random genre descriptors for some reason I've never been clear about. 'Pulp' is a term lots of gamers use to mean 'whacky' rather than 'gritty'... so I'd rather just ignore them when they do that... as I would a little kid that likes to say 'poop' a lot.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;538092I get where you're coming from; however, I think what we've got here is a bit of language evolution. You're entirely correct that "pulp" is a medium, not a genre... and yet, in gamer parlance, I would argue that it has become a genre of sorts. I think we can agree that unless you preface "pulp" with "horror," "fantasy," or the like, when applied to an RPG, gamers are going to expect 1930s two-fisted action.



2FT does go the extra mile to emulate actual pulp stories. As it points out, Doc Savage wouldn't leap into action if someone got the drop on him.

Still, having played the game, I found that 2FT may have gone too far in the other direction: the heroes are so fragile that being as daring as Doc in the first place seems suicidal. I did manage to mitigate this by becoming a lot more generous with the number of cards I handed out.

This wasn't my experience in the campaign I ran.  I think that it depends on which power level you use.  SOTC fanboys like to pretend that 2FT is only good for running the Maltese Falcon or something, but in fact you can use it to run everything from gritty crime drama to cosmic-level adventures.  I think it could pretty easily handle anything from Sam Spade to Kirby's Fantastic Four.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dan Davenport;538092I get where you're coming from; however, I think what we've got here is a bit of language evolution. You're entirely correct that "pulp" is a medium, not a genre... and yet, in gamer parlance, I would argue that it has become a genre of sorts. I think we can agree that unless you preface "pulp" with "horror," "fantasy," or the like, when applied to an RPG, gamers are going to expect 1930s two-fisted action.

2FT does go the extra mile to emulate actual pulp stories. As it points out, Doc Savage wouldn't leap into action if someone got the drop on him.

Still, having played the game, I found that 2FT may have gone too far in the other direction: the heroes are so fragile that being as daring as Doc in the first place seems suicidal. I did manage to mitigate this by becoming a lot more generous with the number of cards I handed out.

I agree with Dan's language evolution point - for RPGs 'pulp' does mean 1930s two-fisted action. Another difference from the original source material is that the inspiration for rpgs often comes more from Indiana Jones and the Steven Sommers Mummy movies.

I don't find 2FT makes the heroes too fragile, as you can vary the scale of the game quite easily. But I know what Dan means about the number of cards allowed being on the mean side - I've also upped the numbers available on occasion.

As I said up thread, the BoL Pulp supplement Dicey Tales gives the characters a bit more of an edge when played RAW. I'm a fan of both rule sets: 2FT when I want to get a play experience like the original source material, and Dicey Tales for when I'm after an Indy/Rick O'Connell vibe.

I think the BRP adaptation might sit somewhere in the middle. It might also be a better fit for running Masks of Nyarlathotep than straight Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: Gruntfuttock;538269I think the BRP adaptation might sit somewhere in the middle. It might also be a better fit for running Masks of Nyarlathotep than straight Call of Cthulhu.

My hopes are that Astounding Adventures! will allow us to adapt CoC to somewhat less gritty levels so we can take our investigators adventurin' without having to come up with motivations for a plethora of back-up characters to join the group when yet another member dies.

Quote from: The Butcher;538017I still want to track down whoever came up  with the "pulp is not gritty" meme and kick him in the nuts.

Yeah. People complaining that starting heroes in Hollow Earth Expedition are too weak for pulp gets tedious.

That's an example of where (among various places) "Spirit of the century" gets it wrong, and Two-Fisted Tales gets it really right.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;636161That's an example of where (among various places) "Spirit of the century" gets it wrong, and Two-Fisted Tales gets it really right.

RPGPundit

And as I read the first novel related to SotC, I would have to agree. Some of the characters (and main villain) are more akin to actual superheroes than pulp characters.

And I love Two Fisted Tales, but have no one locally to play it with

Quote from: RPGPundit;636161That's an example of where (among various places) "Spirit of the century" gets it wrong, and Two-Fisted Tales gets it really right.

RPGPundit

Spirit of the Century assumes certain conceits (like all PCs being 'century children') that are fairly mystical in themselves and are not common to all Pulp.  Two-Fisted Tales or even Pulp HERO are intended to be useful for all kinds of Pulp, and thus follow that philosophy that it's easier to start "normal" and add "weird" stuff than make the game premise weird or superpowered and dial it down from there.  That doesn't mean the "super" approach is inherently bad.

JG

Quote from: RPGPundit;636161That's an example of where (among various places) "Spirit of the century" gets it wrong, and Two-Fisted Tales gets it really right.

RPGPundit

I'm really torn on the subject.

"Right" in this context is a bit of a loaded term. If you mean "right" as in "true to the actual pulp stories," then 2FT is dead-on.

If you mean "right" as in "what's most enjoyable," that's trickier. Again, like it or not, "pulp" in gamer parlance seems to have morphed into something resembling a cross between Hong Kong action movies and low-level superheroics in an alternate 1930s.

That being the case, presenting a pulp game in which the heroes are likely to be mowed down when crashing through a skylight, both guns blazing, is a little problematic in terms of player expectations. There's nothing at all wrong with "true" pulp roleplaying -- I think it just requires a bit more explanation.

I'm looking forward to this! I hope it allows for genre emulation across the spectrum, as others have suggested. I'd like to be able to run Black Mask style murder mysteries with it, proto-superhero "The Spider" style games with it, and shudder pulp style exploitation stories with it!

Quote from: Dan Davenport;636442I'm really torn on the subject.

"Right" in this context is a bit of a loaded term. If you mean "right" as in "true to the actual pulp stories," then 2FT is dead-on.

If you mean "right" as in "what's most enjoyable," that's trickier. Again, like it or not, "pulp" in gamer parlance seems to have morphed into something resembling a cross between Hong Kong action movies and low-level superheroics in an alternate 1930s.

And a big reason for that is that except for those whose parents kept old copies of the original novels and magazines, most of us got our first exposure to "Pulp" through the Indiana Jones movies, which were a. more based on the Saturday serials which were the movie equivalent of Pulp, and b. while not exactly "low-level superheroics in an alternate 1930s" are a lot closer to that description than a lot of the original Pulp stories.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;636334Spirit of the Century assumes certain conceits (like all PCs being 'century children') that are fairly mystical in themselves and are not common to all Pulp.  Two-Fisted Tales or even Pulp HERO are intended to be useful for all kinds of Pulp, and thus follow that philosophy that it's easier to start "normal" and add "weird" stuff than make the game premise weird or superpowered and dial it down from there.  That doesn't mean the "super" approach is inherently bad.

JG

Certainly not.  That's what's great about Two-fisted Tales: you can play it at just about any level, from noir-film style to cosmic badasses.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;636955Certainly not.  That's what's great about Two-fisted Tales: you can play it at just about any level, from noir-film style to cosmic badasses.

RPGPundit

Speaking of the latter, I wonder if that Golden Age supers variant is ever going to come out...