Anyone here run/play this? I am a bit of a collector, and I missed this when they had a volume of books in print, and am waiting for them to print another run of books. What core mechanic does the game run on? The art looks like it was taken directly from a marriage of Savage Sword of Conan and DCC. The art alone makes the game look like something I would be willing to play. Whether I play it or not, I think it will look good on the book shelf beside the others.
It is a cross between AD&D and OD&D with some unique spins on mechanics and classes. Jeff T did a brilliant job on this.
It is a humanocentric setting that is Swords, Sorcery, Cthulhu, and some weird science.
I've owned the first edition forever, and own several of the adventures. I don't play the game as a whole (I ran some of the adventures back when I got them) as I find it a little too dense compared to other TSR D&D based games, but I've stolen plenty of ideas and some mechanics from it. Like DCC RPG, it's a great idea mine, even if you don't play it.
Aesthetically, I prefer the unified (amazing!) art of the 1st edition. I have the PDF of the 2nd edition but never did anything with it- it seemed "fluffed up" with presnetation and art mainly, but did add a fair amount of new stuff (classes, etc). The art is good in the 2E book but it the styles vary in significant ways, and IMO is jarring to look through. YMMV.
I don't think I'll go in for the 3E KS when it's live, just because I know it would be a shelf queen and see little use.
I like ASSH very much, its one of my favorite systems. Its rules are quite dense, and it expresses a few mechanics a bit different than normal (it has descending AC but uses an ascending score called Fighting ability instead of something like THAC0 which for whatever reason took me a second to get used to).
Normally im not a huge fan of built in settings, but i think the Hyperborea setting is very cool too. 8t and DCC are probably my top two systems
I think "a little too dense" is a great description. I liked the worldbuilding, but felt like I would rather play a house-ruled ACKS or 5e in that (kind of) world than something that read like "1e + lots of specialised caster classes".
I have played it a couple times at conventions with J. Talanian as DM
It was a lot of fun: pretty fast moving, with clever integration of "Weird Tales" elements into standard AD&D. I think there was a nice box set available back in the day, and the art is pretty cool. Recommended
They are currently prepping a third edition and I imagine they will launch a kickstarter soon. The art will be updated and it will be separated into two books. Combat will be streamlined a bit, but I think it may still be too crunchy for me. Nothing about the setting changes, as far as I know. The stated intent is that everything will be backward compatible.
Quote from: Slambo on June 23, 2021, 11:39:11 AM
I like ASSH very much, its one of my favorite systems. Its rules are quite dense, and it expresses a few mechanics a bit different than normal (it has descending AC but uses an ascending score called Fighting ability instead of something like THAC0 which for whatever reason took me a second to get used to).
...
Unless you are specifically cloning a pre 3e edition of D&D; there is
no reason not to use the current gaming standard of Ascending AC in your d20 based game. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Blows me away every time I see this.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 24, 2021, 07:45:32 PM
Quote from: Slambo on June 23, 2021, 11:39:11 AM
I like ASSH very much, its one of my favorite systems. Its rules are quite dense, and it expresses a few mechanics a bit different than normal (it has descending AC but uses an ascending score called Fighting ability instead of something like THAC0 which for whatever reason took me a second to get used to).
...
Unless you are specifically cloning a pre 3e edition of D&D; there is no reason not to use the current gaming standard of Ascending AC in your d20 based game. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Blows me away every time I see this.
Smaller numbers.
Blows me away every time I see people stating a subjective preference as an objective fact.
what classes are available in AS&SoH?
4 basic classes
Fighter
Magician
Cleric
Thief
Then there are optional subclasses for each of the 4 (GM discretion on access)
Fighter
Barbarian
Berserker
Cataphract
Huntsman
Paladin
Ranger
Warlock
Magician
Cryomancer
Illusionist
Necromancer
Pyromancer
Witch
Cleric
Druid
Monk
Priest
Runegraver
Shaman
Thief
Assassin
Bard
Legerdemainist
Purloiner
Scout
Quote from: moonsweeper on June 25, 2021, 01:49:13 AM
4 basic classes
Fighter
Magician
Cleric
Thief
Then there are optional subclasses for each of the 4 (GM discretion on access)
Fighter
Barbarian
Berserker
Cataphract
Huntsman
Paladin
Ranger
Warlock
(...a bunch of other subclasses)
I haven't got my book with me but IIRC, the subclasses are the book's way of handling multiclassing. So you can be a fighter/cleric = paladin. But only at chargen - I don't think there was multiclassing after character creation. However I never got to play and it's been a while since I saw my book so I might be wrong.
ASSH is specifically inspired by and a further development of AD&D 1st edition. There was absolutely zero reason to use ascending AC. It was not meant to be a "retroclone" with some modern sensibilities thrown in. Tits on a bull.
Quote from: Marchand on June 25, 2021, 04:46:24 AM
Quote from: moonsweeper on June 25, 2021, 01:49:13 AM
4 basic classes
Fighter
Magician
Cleric
Thief
Then there are optional subclasses for each of the 4 (GM discretion on access)
Fighter
Barbarian
Berserker
Cataphract
Huntsman
Paladin
Ranger
Warlock
(...a bunch of other subclasses)
I haven't got my book with me but IIRC, the subclasses are the book's way of handling multiclassing. So you can be a fighter/cleric = paladin. But only at chargen - I don't think there was multiclassing after character creation. However I never got to play and it's been a while since I saw my book so I might be wrong.
Yes, that is correct. There is no multiclassing and a number of the subclasses fill that gap.
Our group had an online Session 0 last night where we generated characters and everyone was highly impressed. This group mainly plays B/X - OSE based games so the game's little bit of extra crunch was actually a nice surprise for them.
The inherent setting is fantastic imo. I simply don't have the time anymore to work on settings and background lore to the extent that I can make a well rounded setting. Hyperborea is an excellent mix of Clark Ashton Smith, Jack Vance and Gary Gygax.
One of the reasons I steer clear of DCCRPG is that it doesn't really have a default game setting and I find the Pundit's world a tad too gonzo for my taste. I also have Hubris but it didn't quite sit right either. Of course with the Dying Earth KS just starting, I will reassess that next year.
As far ascending AC, it is quite easy to just say that a characters FA (Fighting Ability) is their base attack bonus, and just flip the game's armor class.
The one thing that kept me away from ASSH for a long time was convoluted initiative system. Its actually fairly easy but its presentation wasn't intuitive at all.
J. Talanian has been teasing new bits and pieces of the upcoming third edition of the game which thankfully cleaves closer to B/X d6 based initiative. He discusses the changes in this thread: https://hyperborea.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=1439&p=1
The upcoming kickstarter can be found here:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffreytalanian/hyperborea-3e
Cheers!
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
Smaller numbers.
Blows me away every time I see people stating a subjective preference as an objective fact.
For d20 games the industry standard is now ascending AC.
Unless you are appealing to a specific audience that wants the old standard - It's like making a game that uses a d20 for task resolution but is not a d20 game – you are limiting your audience.
Of course people can make the game they want and no one can stop them.
Quote from: JeffB on June 25, 2021, 09:23:38 AM
ASSH is specifically inspired by and a further development of AD&D 1st edition. There was absolutely zero reason to use ascending AC.
Then he is making the game for a specific audience, which is his privilege.
Quote from: JeffB on June 25, 2021, 09:23:38 AM
It was not meant to be a "retroclone" with some modern sensibilities thrown in. Tits on a bull.
I guess I fall into the pro-ascending camp. It is just more intuitive for those who did not come up with descending being the standard.
I just don't see how it would be titties on a bull to go with ascending AC.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 25, 2021, 05:51:28 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
Smaller numbers.
Blows me away every time I see people stating a subjective preference as an objective fact.
For d20 games the industry standard is now ascending AC.
Unless you are appealing to a specific audience that wants the old standard - It's like making a game that uses a d20 for task resolution but is not a d20 game – you are limiting your audience.
Of course people can make the game they want and no one can stop them.
You can make an argument along those lines. It's a half decent argument. It's an argument I would have made, except I wouldn't have included that appeal to conformity.
But that's not the argument you made.
This is the argument you made:
Quote from: Jaeger on June 24, 2021, 07:45:32 PM
Unless you are specifically cloning a pre 3e edition of D&D; there is no reason not to use the current gaming standard of Ascending AC in your d20 based game. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Blows me away every time I see this.
And that's still completely wrong. There are valid arguments in both directions.
Quote from: Pat on June 25, 2021, 05:55:55 PM
...
But that's not the argument you made. This is the argument you made:
Quote from: Jaeger on June 24, 2021, 07:45:32 PM
Unless you are specifically cloning a pre 3e edition of D&D; there is no reason not to use the current gaming standard of Ascending AC in your d20 based game. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Blows me away every time I see this.
And that's still completely wrong. There are valid arguments in both directions.
You are correct in that I did specifically say "no reason" before I properly thought through the business side of things.
That is on me. Because there is a case for appealing to a specific audience that likes THACO/descending AC..
Quote from: Jaeger on June 25, 2021, 06:22:31 PMBecause there is a case for appealing to a specific audience that likes THACO/descending AC..
If you're interested, Delta's D&D Hotspot does a good analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the d20 system, THAC0, and Target 20 that brings in some elements that I'm familiar from other sources, like UX theory. Basically, it's a trade off between what we know about how people process numbers. One of the strengths of descending AC is it primarily deals with single digit numbers, which are a lot easier for most people to process than the two-digit numbers that appear in the d20 system. The biggest hit against descending AC is the negative numbers, which tend to throw people for a loop, especially if it involves subtracting negatives (which it does in THAC0). But THAC0 is just one specific implementation. The original method was a table lookup, which doesn't have that weakness. In fact, the table lookup replaces not just subtraction, but also addition, with a simple comparison operation -- you just skim your finger down a row looking for a number to beat. From a processing standpoint, that's hard to top. It does require a table, but from the player side you don't need a whole matrix, just a single line, which is trivial to put on a character sheet. It's also worth noting that negative ACs didn't actually exist in the first implementation of descending AC. In OD&D, there are no negative ACs. Magical bonuses and the like affect hit rolls, not AC. (This changed in the Supplements.)
It ultimately boils down to preference, but we can take a hard look at why people have the preferences they do. Ascending AC is certainly more popular today, and it does have a number of virtues. It's probably safe to say it's better than THAC0, for instance. But it becomes much more ambiguous when compared to table lookups, the Target 20 system, or systems that avoid negative ACs. Those all have strengths that ascending systems do not. So there are valid reasons for preferring both, beyond simple familiarity and custom.
I'm still holding out for a setting book for Hyperborea. It's one of the more interesting settings.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 25, 2021, 05:51:28 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
Smaller numbers.
Blows me away every time I see people stating a subjective preference as an objective fact.
For d20 games the industry standard is now ascending AC.
Unless you are appealing to a specific audience that wants the old standard - It's like making a game that uses a d20 for task resolution but is not a d20 game – you are limiting your audience.
Of course people can make the game they want and no one can stop them.
Quote from: JeffB on June 25, 2021, 09:23:38 AM
ASSH is specifically inspired by and a further development of AD&D 1st edition. There was absolutely zero reason to use ascending AC.
Then he is making the game for a specific audience, which is his privilege.
Quote from: JeffB on June 25, 2021, 09:23:38 AM
It was not meant to be a "retroclone" with some modern sensibilities thrown in. Tits on a bull.
I guess I fall into the pro-ascending camp. It is just more intuitive for those who did not come up with descending being the standard.
I just don't see how it would be titties on a bull to go with ascending AC.
If you are an AD&D disciple writing a game that is a further development of that system, ascending AC is as useless as tits on a bull. Just like adding a skill point system, Prestige Classes and feats would be.
FWIW- I prefer ascending AC. I change everything to it. It's easy to flip on the fly. I have done Deltas's Target 20, and that's IME a fun way to do descending AC (and why it never made it into published OD&D when it's obvious it was the intention early on in development, I guess we will never know)
Quote from: Mind Crime on June 25, 2021, 09:25:15 PM
I'm still holding out for a setting book for Hyperborea. It's one of the more interesting settings.
I believe that J. Talanian mentioned that there might be a separate map book and gazetteer. I hope so, I love the setting but that map can be hard to navigate.
Quote from: Jaeger on June 25, 2021, 05:51:28 PM
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
Smaller numbers.
Blows me away every time I see people stating a subjective preference as an objective fact.
For d20 games the industry standard is now ascending AC.
Unless you are appealing to a specific audience that wants the old standard - It's like making a game that uses a d20 for task resolution but is not a d20 game – you are limiting your audience.
Of course people can make the game they want and no one can stop them.
Quote from: JeffB on June 25, 2021, 09:23:38 AM
ASSH is specifically inspired by and a further development of AD&D 1st edition. There was absolutely zero reason to use ascending AC.
Then he is making the game for a specific audience, which is his privilege.
Quote from: JeffB on June 25, 2021, 09:23:38 AM
It was not meant to be a "retroclone" with some modern sensibilities thrown in. Tits on a bull.
I guess I fall into the pro-ascending camp. It is just more intuitive for those who did not come up with descending being the standard.
I just don't see how it would be titties on a bull to go with ascending AC.
I don't really know if you could classify ASSH as a d20 game. Yes, it uses the d20 for attacks, but task resolution builds on and expands the old (x) in (x) (2) in (d6) chance for its general task resolution, when the DM calls for one.
I don't really think ASSH can be classified as 1E or d20, it most definitely takes queues from both game types though.
I have the boxed set, the 2nd Ed Hardback, all the modules and plan to go in on 3e. It's worth every penny. Not only does Talanian get Sword and Sorcery and the source material, he's also a class act.
Quote from: Pat on June 24, 2021, 08:28:22 PM
Unless you are specifically cloning a pre 3e edition of D&D; there is no reason not to use the current gaming standard of Ascending AC in your d20 based game. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Blows me away every time I see this.
Smaller numbers.
Blows me away every time I see people stating a subjective preference as an objective fact.
Boy, me too. I hate that almost as much as people using popularity as an Appeal to Authority in an attempt to pass their subjective preference off as objective fact. 8)
Quote from: crkrueger on June 27, 2021, 06:28:12 AM
I have the boxed set, the 2nd Ed Hardback, all the modules and plan to go in on 3e. It's worth every penny. Not only does Talanian get Sword and Sorcery and the source material, he's also a class act.
This.
Quote from: crkrueger on June 27, 2021, 06:34:00 AM
Boy, me too. I hate that almost as much as people using popularity as an Appeal to Authority in an attempt to pass their subjective preference off as objective fact. 8)
Jaeger had the grace to paddle that back in a latter post.
(Also, your quotes got combined.)
I've got the basics in pdf, but my group hasn't had the interest to play it yet. From what I've read, it looks like a fun system to play.
Just an FYI the Hyperborean Kickstarter has launched.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffreytalanian/hyperborea-3e
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on July 02, 2021, 07:42:33 AM
Just an FYI the Hyperborean Kickstarter has launched.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffreytalanian/hyperborea-3e
Nice. Looks like they have crushed their goal as well.
Quote from: The Spaniard on July 02, 2021, 07:55:36 AM
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn on July 02, 2021, 07:42:33 AM
Just an FYI the Hyperborean Kickstarter has launched.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jeffreytalanian/hyperborea-3e
Nice. Looks like they have crushed their goal as well.
Goddamn it. I said I wouldnt do any more kickstarters. I have a few days to back away from my overwhelming desire to dive in on it. I have a feeling in a week I am still going to go in on it. I do wonder about the odds of them delivering that dec 2021 though.
I think he has been working on all these edits for a while, so I'm hopeful that the date is accurate.
I don't mind a sprinkle of "weird science" and that kind of thing every now and then, but it is not my favorite aspect of sword and sorcery. (Didn't care for Expedition to Barrier Peaks, for example.) How far does ASSH go in that vein? For those that have done both, how would you compare it to DCC for the "weird" aspect?
Quote from: oggsmashAnyone here run/play this?
I've run/played it a bunch and written a couple of modules for it.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawn
As far ascending AC, it is quite easy to just say that a characters FA (Fighting Ability) is their base attack bonus, and just flip the game's armor class.
Yep.
Quote from: TheShadowSpawnThe one thing that kept me away from ASSH for a long time was convoluted initiative system. Its actually fairly easy but its presentation wasn't intuitive at all.
Yeah, as you point out, it has been simplified and clarified. I don't think it will confuse anyone anymore.
Quote from: Steven MitchellI don't mind a sprinkle of "weird science" and that kind of thing every now and then, but it is not my favorite aspect of sword and sorcery. (Didn't care for Expedition to Barrier Peaks, for example.) How far does ASSH go in that vein?
You can usually ignore it if you want, as it mostly manifests as rare treasure ("ancient technology") and strange/forgotten devices/machines in some very remote locations in certain modules. There aren't any classes/abilities that depend on it or feature it and it's not common to daily life. You might find a radium pistol buried in an ancient Atlantean's lost tomb, for example, but the local town guard isn't packing heat.
Is there something about the game that would prevent the authors from offering a 1 page set of conversion instructions for Ascending AC. I know OSE does something like that.
Quote from: PencilBoy99 on July 12, 2021, 09:51:28 AM
Is there something about the game that would prevent the authors from offering a 1 page set of conversion instructions for Ascending AC. I know OSE does something like that.
Not really, but after reading the second edition (barely started running it, got excited for the kickstarter) it seems that when you actually look at the Fighting Ability table it is pretty much just a lengthy write-up of target 20. That is, unless I have my math horribly wrong? Either way conversion wouldn't be hard
Edit: also compared to the 2e charcoal art for the classes, the 3e class art by Diogo Nogueira looks really... bad, at least for my tastes. The charcoal art gave a lot more of a gritty feel to the classes. Doesn't help that the new art doesn't seem to differentiate any of the classes in any way and detracts from a lot of them (notably the pyromancer art)