Quote from: CRKrueger;351097I don't have anything wrong with story structure at the table, as a GM, it's always there, metaplot, multiple story arcs, all there for my players to engage with or not depending on their actions.  As a player, I prefer to just let that stuff go into the background, and let the GM handle it.

I've enjoyed playing some Forgeite games, even if I don't buy into the philosophy, but I read things that Ron, Vince, Luke have written about why they design games that way, and it really seems to come down to bad GM's or bad players.  That's what I meant about the "training wheels".  Some Forgeite games are great for teaching people how to roleplay.  Give them a mechanical reason to invest in their characters and immerse and eventually they'll do it even when the mechanical reason is not there.

That's just not true.  What "storygames" do is "teach" (indoctrinate) all the wrong lessons.  Its an artificial replacement, an alien parasite, to real roleplaying.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;351426That's just not true.  What "storygames" do is "teach" (indoctrinate) all the wrong lessons.  Its an artificial replacement, an alien parasite, to real roleplaying.

RPGPundit

If you bought into the whole philosophy and ran the games that way, I agree.  However, look above at my example of using RoS and BW.  Granted those games are really aberrations as they are simulationist as hell for Forgeite games.  Obviously, you're not gonna get the same results from My Life With Master or that stupid wererat dating game.

Quote from: CRKrueger;351169Here's a real world example of how I used a Forge-ish game to teach someone how to roleplay.

I was running a 1e campaign at the time.  One of the players brought over his roommate who was a bigtime 3.0 munchkin.  After a session of that, I put the game on hold and moved over to Riddle of Steel.  If you're familiar with it, you have Spiritual Attributes (passions, destinies etc...) and if you are in situations where you can invoke your SA's, you get bonuses, real good bonuses.

So, it took a couple sessions for the mechanics to sink in, and the munchkin was chasing those SAs like mad.  It took a few more sessions for him to get into the concept of his character and how the SAs could work together.  We finished that short campaign and then I basically did the same thing with Burning Wheel. (Riddle of Steel and Burning Wheel are really the only Narrative-type games I can stand for more than a one-shot).

When we went back to the 1e game where everyone else was playing their character and not munchkining, he started doing the same thing even without metagame bonuses.  Somewhere along the way while roleplaying for points, he learned how to roleplay, and kept doing it.

Yeah it basically derailed my 1e campaign for the summer, but this was a good friend of one of my players, he had promise, so we did it, and he played with us for two more years after that.  It was worth it.

I will admit that Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel are crunchy as hell and not really standard Forge games, but I think Dogs in the Vineyard could work for that purpose too with the right player.

I think it's not casuality that you mention Burning Wheel and The Riddle of Steel as "examples" of forgie games. Burning Wheel has several forgisms, but generally it's a rather traditional RPG. The Riddle of Steel is as forgie as Ars Magica, its author posted at the Forge, and Ron Edwards liked Spiritual Attributes so much that he reinterpreted them as a Narrative (in the Forge sense, whatever it means) mechanic. Other than that, what's forgie about TROS?

CRKrueger, I don't want to accuse you of intellectual dishonesty (I really think you mean well), but it always irks me when somebody comes along and mentions The Riddle of Steel, or even Burning Wheel and Conspiracy of Shadows (especially in their first versions, which were even more free of forgisms) as examples of forgie games, as if they were in the same league with games such as My Life with Master, Dogs in the Vineyard or Dread. These are real forgie games, chocked with forgisms.

I see your point, however, what should we call games like RoS or BW?
Forge-ish? Forge-ite? Forge-lite? Semi-Forge? Mini-Forge?
They certainly have Narrative metagaming mechanics designed to aid storygaming.  

I don't think you would define Starblazer Adventures as a Forge game, but in his review for Starblazer Adventures, Pundit referred to Aspects...

Quote from: RPGPundit;327818Yes, you have Aspects that can make the game into a nonsensical "narrativist" forgey-game

That was pretty much what I meant about RoS and BW, they definitely have Forge-like mechanics.  Maybe I should have used "Storygaming" or "Narrative" instead of "Forge-ite".

The "Forge" definition is a problem, so just to clear the waters, I'll take back the statement that Forge games can be used to teach roleplaying and instead say that some games with metagaming storytelling mechanics can be used to teach roleplaying (that will bring my point back in line with the original topic).

Most labels and definitions become problematic if examined too closely, be it "Forge game", "Old School", "Rules light" or "Cinemic". One probably should keep an open mind and judge each and every game on its own merits, which of course sounds terribly obvious.


Edit:
Which isn't to say labels are useless. They serve a purpose but are only a starting point.

Note that I said that they CAN be used that way, not necessarily that they must be. That's what I love about SA, the rules are so full of different ways to work and interpret them that you can end up doing all kinds of interesting things with them.

RPGPundit

Quote from: CRKrueger;351499I see your point, however, what should we call games like RoS or BW?
Forge-ish? Forge-ite? Forge-lite? Semi-Forge? Mini-Forge?
They certainly have Narrative metagaming mechanics designed to aid storygaming.

Good question. I would call The Riddle of Steel a traditional RPG, and Burning Wheel a traditional RPG with some forgisms. And here's the thing. I mentioned The Riddle of Steel, Burning Wheel and Conspiracy of Shadows because when they were just an idea in their head, their authors had no idea about Forge dogma. They started to develop them independently of the Forge, and it was only after they familiarized themselves with the Forgie ideas that some forgisms got into those games, mostly when they published the revised editions. I heard that the original Burning Wheel was much more traditional than Burning Wheel Revised, and in the case of Conspiracy of Shadows I own both versions and could see it with my own eyes. The Riddle of Steel is a different case, Spiritual Attributes weren't initially conceived as a narrative mechanic, they were interpreted so by Ron Edwards, that's the reason why you can read in some forums that "Jake (Norwood) didn't know what he was doing when he came up with Spiritual Attributes". What he wanted to emulate was the part in the Conan movie about The Riddle of Steel.

QuoteThat was pretty much what I meant about RoS and BW, they definitely have Forge-like mechanics.  Maybe I should have used "Storygaming" or "Narrative" instead of "Forge-ite".

Don't worry, Forgite is fine. The only term I can't stomach is indie. If you ask what indie is, everybody will say as a choir "author created and owned", but in real use, when anybody says indie what they mean is forgie.