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Author Topic: "Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?  (Read 4488 times)

Simlasa

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2009, 07:35:32 PM »
Quote from: StormBringer;350930
Easy peasy.  Don't give them mechanical benefits.  ;)


Then I'd pretty much be back to the pithy bits I write on my character sheets to describe my guy's personality/lifestyle... which I've been doing since the waybackgetgo... so... again, I guess I don't need no formal rule to tell me to do that.
I'm not one for fate/karma points and disads/advantages either...

flyingmice

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2009, 07:43:08 PM »
Quote from: StormBringer;350930
Easy peasy.  Don't give them mechanical benefits.  ;)


Yep! They work great as simple descriptors too. Kind of gives players some bones to build their characters on.

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StormBringer

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2009, 07:48:43 PM »
Quote from: Simlasa;350947
Then I'd pretty much be back to the pithy bits I write on my character sheets to describe my guy's personality/lifestyle... which I've been doing since the waybackgetgo... so... again, I guess I don't need no formal rule to tell me to do that.
Not formal rules, but a nice table with options for a kick start.  It doesn't even have to be randomly rolled, necessarily.

Quote from: flyingmice;350954
Yep! They work great as simple descriptors too. Kind of gives players some bones to build their characters on.
My thoughts exactly.  Apparently conflicting traits are fantastic opportunities to flesh out a character.  How can this character be 'curmudgeonly' and 'cheerful'?  Obviously, the character is grumpy towards most people, but 'cheery' around children, or cats, or blondes with big boobs, or whatever.

It breaks people out of the mould, like random stat generation.
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boulet

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2009, 08:05:09 PM »
I missed something somewhere. What's the point of aspects if they have no mechanical input? I'd rather write 2 or 3 eloquent paragraphs about my new PC rather than a bunch of sentences that sound like advertising slogans.

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2009, 08:43:26 PM »
Quote from: boulet;350960
I missed something somewhere. What's the point of aspects if they have no mechanical input? I'd rather write 2 or 3 eloquent paragraphs about my new PC rather than a bunch of sentences that sound like advertising slogans.

Simlasa was saying they bother him to use mechanically, so SB & I suggested he could use them non-mechanically, as descriptors, were he to be in a game that used them. When I first introduced Traits into my games, my players took to them first as descriptors, and only got to consistently using them mechanically after a period of getting acclimated to them.

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« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 08:45:50 PM by flyingmice »
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Ian Absentia

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2009, 09:50:41 PM »
Quote from: One Horse Town;350923
We're not?
See the response to my post as an example.*

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[*Edit: I think I misread CRKrueger's reply to my earlier post.  But, you know, that whole "No story structure at my game table!" thing that plays so well hereabouts.  Different strokes, man.]
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 12:31:49 AM by Ian Absentia »

Maddman

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2009, 12:20:52 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;350927
I wasn't really trying to do that, but rather get the point across that roleplaying as a term has outlived its usefulness when discussions get theoretical.  Most of the time, it's fine to just say "rhino".  In a biological discussion however, the generality of the term will quickly be discarded as it is not specific enough.  That's kind of what has happened to roleplaying.  


We cool.   Sorry if I jumped the gun, a fight I've had too many times and thought it was starting again.

You make a good point, if someone says 'there's a lot of roleplaying in my game' what exactly does that mean?  Is it something I will enjoy?  I've known gamers who refer to anything that isn't combat 'roleplaying', such as puzzles and riddles.  I really dislike those, because its challenging me the player, not the character I'm imagining.  Does is mean a lot of interpersonal drama and character driven rather than plot driven games?  Does is mean the GM is loose with the rules?  It could mean any of these things.

Rather than saying one of them is roleplaying and the others are something else is what gets people thinking you're one-true-waying.  Me included.  They're all roleplaying.  They can be different categories under that broad title.  And does this apply to gamers, groups, or game rules?  I've thought about this, and worry if I go too far down the rabbit hole I'll end up with something like GNS, which manages to predict that D&D and Vampire, the two most popular games of all time, are terrible games that should be colossal failures.  But they aren't.

And yes, I'm willing to admit that you get the kind of play you want without metagame mechanics just like I get the kind of play I want with them.  Gaming isn't about right and wrong so much as style.

But I think most players think about the metagame at least a little, if they aren't colossal jerks.  Now some people think only of using out of game knowledge for in game benefit (ie, the GM worked all night on this adventure, there's no way he'd kill us right now!), but it also refers to using out of game knowledge to make the game more enjoyable for everyone.  For example, when a new player joins the game, the group usually accepts any excuse to let him join in the adventure.  They might put up a pretense of not trusting the new guy yet, but certainly they give more leeway than they would an NPC.  This is because Dave came over to play this game we've been talking about, and we want him to play it!  He can't do that if we don't let him come on the adventure with us!  The players aren't looking for any advantage here, they are trying to show Dave how cool and fun this hobby is.

That is good metagaming.
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two_fishes

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2009, 02:06:37 AM »
I like aspect mechanics, and don't see them as a crutch. It's a good point that I'd probably play much the same regardless of whether they're there or not, and I think it's mostly true, but not entirely true. If a reward mechanic exists in a game, I'm going to have my eyes open for ways to engage that reward. It's not going to be the determining factor of all my decisions, but it's something that's going to be factored into the decision-making process. I've found this most prevalent in Prime Time Adventures, which has a mechanic that allows other players to give reward for play they like. When I play PTA, I'm on the lookout for ways to entertain the other players more than when I play other games.

I don't really like the word metagaming either. It's just playing the game aspect of role-playing games. It seems to get used in cases where the role-playing conflicts with the game-playing, where the game-playing is mechanically rewarded and the role-playing is penalized. A good role-playing game should minimize the occurence of that situation, shouldn't it?

Soylent Green

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2009, 05:48:47 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;350823

I do have fun playing and running Fate-based games, like Starblazer, etc, but it's always in a pulp-fashion, or in one or two shots.  I couldn't see running a long-term campaign with one of those systems.  Too much frosting, not enough cake. (Well, ok, maybe with Starblazer.)


That's interesting. For me the issue with Fate (Spirit of the Century specifically) is not so much the metagame elements but that they made it just too detailed (I've not read Starblazers, just the size of the book scared me away!).

I'm curious what you mean by "frosting" and "cake"?
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kregmosier

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2009, 10:23:10 AM »
Don't see them as any worse than "attributes" or "skills"...that is, a numerical representation of some modular portion of the character that affects the whole.

Pundit said:  
Quote
A gamer who's a good roleplayer will make a Dexterity or Charisma attribute into something that says something about his character; and a gamer who's a bad roleplayer will treat his "a girl at every port" or "the star police's best dog" aspects as just another thing to roll to get points.


which i completely agree with, as well as the "they're neutral mechanical bits".
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crkrueger

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2009, 12:02:46 PM »
Quote from: Soylent Green;351049
.I'm curious what you mean by "frosting" and "cake"?


Well, just toss that out, it was a bad analogy, anyway. :D

What I was going for was, that games with Aspects tend to be of the "Fast and Loose" model, which, for me, usually don't have enough granularity in the rules to really do a long-term campaign with character progression throughout.  Now that I'm rethinking it, that really has nothing to do with Aspects in and of themselves, but more to do with the rules-light aspect of the F&L model.  Fate is maturing however, and a huge toolkit like Starblazer is showing what can be done with the system.
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crkrueger

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2009, 12:13:26 PM »
Quote from: Ian Absentia;350993
But, you know, that whole "No story structure at my game table!" thing that plays so well hereabouts.  Different strokes, man.]


I don't have anything wrong with story structure at the table, as a GM, it's always there, metaplot, multiple story arcs, all there for my players to engage with or not depending on their actions.  As a player, I prefer to just let that stuff go into the background, and let the GM handle it.

I've enjoyed playing some Forgeite games, even if I don't buy into the philosophy, but I read things that Ron, Vince, Luke have written about why they design games that way, and it really seems to come down to bad GM's or bad players.  That's what I meant about the "training wheels".  Some Forgeite games are great for teaching people how to roleplay.  Give them a mechanical reason to invest in their characters and immerse and eventually they'll do it even when the mechanical reason is not there.

EDIT: and I don't mean that rpg training is all a RPG with metagaming story elements is good for.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 01:04:00 PM by CRKrueger »
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

David R

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2009, 06:33:17 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;351097
Some Forgeite games are great for teaching people how to roleplay.  Give them a mechanical reason to invest in their characters and immerse and eventually they'll do it even when the mechanical reason is not there.


I disagree with this and I have played a number of Forge games. I think Forge games work for people who have roleplayed before (and figured out exactly what they mean when they say they "roleplay") but it's pretty useless for teaching people how to roleplay, IMO. It may teach them what the designer of said Forge game thinks is roleplaying.

Regards,
David R
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 06:55:18 PM by David R »

crkrueger

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2009, 11:41:37 PM »
Here's a real world example of how I used a Forge-ish game to teach someone how to roleplay.

I was running a 1e campaign at the time.  One of the players brought over his roommate who was a bigtime 3.0 munchkin.  After a session of that, I put the game on hold and moved over to Riddle of Steel.  If you're familiar with it, you have Spiritual Attributes (passions, destinies etc...) and if you are in situations where you can invoke your SA's, you get bonuses, real good bonuses.

So, it took a couple sessions for the mechanics to sink in, and the munchkin was chasing those SAs like mad.  It took a few more sessions for him to get into the concept of his character and how the SAs could work together.  We finished that short campaign and then I basically did the same thing with Burning Wheel. (Riddle of Steel and Burning Wheel are really the only Narrative-type games I can stand for more than a one-shot).

When we went back to the 1e game where everyone else was playing their character and not munchkining, he started doing the same thing even without metagame bonuses.  Somewhere along the way while roleplaying for points, he learned how to roleplay, and kept doing it.

Yeah it basically derailed my 1e campaign for the summer, but this was a good friend of one of my players, he had promise, so we did it, and he played with us for two more years after that.  It was worth it.

I will admit that Burning Wheel and Riddle of Steel are crunchy as hell and not really standard Forge games, but I think Dogs in the Vineyard could work for that purpose too with the right player.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 11:44:37 PM by CRKrueger »
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

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"Aspect" Mechanics: A crutch for people who don't know how to Roleplay?
« Reply #44 on: December 24, 2009, 01:08:32 AM »
Though as I've said before, I have nothing really against the use of Aspects as they appear in games like SA or OtE, by far I prefer the kind of roleplay-mechanics you see in Pendragon.

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