Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 09, 2024, 09:30:40 AM
I tried to play this one time. It was a demo at my FLGS. It took so long to decode the chicken bones every time someone made a roll that I never attempted to try and play again.

Not saying there aren't other issues involved, but I'd say the big problem with Genesis dice is that whatever good idea is there is being drowned by taking it way too far. 

In principle, a d20 + modifier versus target number, is fine.  Then you take it where high level D&D 3.* takes it, and it breaks.

In principle, a few carefully chosen symbols on special dice that make a game's resolution sing and do a lot in a an easy roll is fine.  Then you take it where Genesis goes, and "broke" is so far in the rear view mirror that it might create the impression that all custom dice are horrible.

Quote from: RNGm on March 11, 2024, 11:34:33 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2024, 01:32:41 AM
There's a bit of  learning curve, but once you get over it, the game actually plays pretty smooth. However, I have noticed that people new to RPGs tend to pick it up faster than those that have played more traditional systems for years. I guess it takes a bit to "unlearn" and adapt, ut if you're willing to try, it can be fun.

The same is likely true of Braille but I don't want to game using it as a sighted person.   The complicated dice combos with unique faces are primarily an excuse to sell you overpriced variants of dice you likely already have as a gamer but wouldn't use because it would be even more cumbersome to decode without the custom markings.  I say that as a person who actually prefers dice pools compared with a single die mechanic to rule them all but who recognizes that each method has its strengths and weaknesses.   The FFG system for Star Wars (later genericized into an equally pretentiously misspelled so its trademarkable Genesys system) highlights the flaws of dice pools in my opinion.   People are free to like it though but I reached my limit of custom dice with Xwing.

The dice pools in FFG's Star Wars/Genesys do something that no version of D&D does: it generates results on 2 axis (Success---Failure and Advantage---Threat) with additional possiblities too  (Triumph and Despair). This allows every dice pool to give six possible outcome (and that's not including Triumph & Despair). You might not like it, but it does offer mechanics and outcomes that most dice systems simply do not.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 11, 2024, 06:45:33 PM
The dice pools in FFG's Star Wars/Genesys do something that no version of D&D does: it generates results on 2 axis (Success---Failure and Advantage---Threat) with additional possiblities too  (Triumph and Despair). This allows every dice pool to give six possible outcome (and that's not including Triumph & Despair). You might not like it, but it does offer mechanics and outcomes that most dice systems simply do not.

It most certainly does do that but then that brings up two additional questions/points. 

1)  Do other systems want to do that? 
Most apparently don't since they don't incorporate that type of mechanic.  I'm not opposed to a multiaxis result on a roll but rather the method that FFG's system used.  YMMV.

2) Could they just do that rolling two to three d20's (for example) simulateuously?  Whether just from the results of the pass/fail roll or a combo of margin of success or doubles or odd/even results, I think the answer is yes but admittedly I'm not familiar enough with FFG's game mechanics after a single demo to say for sure.   I assume having multiple pass/fail tests in a single roll of a couple of d20's would simulate the same thing without resorting to having to interpret various hieroglyphs unique to the game on custom dice priced at a premium.   I know you can technically use a cheat sheet with regular dice to figure it out with their system using yet another additional step (something IIRC ad hoc'ed by fans during its exclusive Star Wars use but it may have been made a core option in the genericized version).

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 11, 2024, 12:12:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 09, 2024, 09:30:40 AM
I tried to play this one time. It was a demo at my FLGS. It took so long to decode the chicken bones every time someone made a roll that I never attempted to try and play again.

Not saying there aren't other issues involved, but I'd say the big problem with Genesis dice is that whatever good idea is there is being drowned by taking it way too far. 

In principle, a d20 + modifier versus target number, is fine.  Then you take it where high level D&D 3.* takes it, and it breaks.

In principle, a few carefully chosen symbols on special dice that make a game's resolution sing and do a lot in a an easy roll is fine.  Then you take it where Genesis goes, and "broke" is so far in the rear view mirror that it might create the impression that all custom dice are horrible.

Reading the rulebook, I got the impression that they hoped that all the interacting dice results would somehow cause amazing emergent situations from the soup of symbols.
If I were to GM Genesys, I would likely rein it in to a success/fail system with some mods on the side. (the combat section gets more of a handle on what to do with all the different results)

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 11, 2024, 06:45:33 PM

Quote from: RNGm on March 11, 2024, 11:34:33 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 10, 2024, 01:32:41 AM
There's a bit of  learning curve, but once you get over it, the game actually plays pretty smooth. However, I have noticed that people new to RPGs tend to pick it up faster than those that have played more traditional systems for years. I guess it takes a bit to "unlearn" and adapt, ut if you're willing to try, it can be fun.

The same is likely true of Braille but I don't want to game using it as a sighted person.   The complicated dice combos with unique faces are primarily an excuse to sell you overpriced variants of dice you likely already have as a gamer but wouldn't use because it would be even more cumbersome to decode without the custom markings.  I say that as a person who actually prefers dice pools compared with a single die mechanic to rule them all but who recognizes that each method has its strengths and weaknesses.   The FFG system for Star Wars (later genericized into an equally pretentiously misspelled so its trademarkable Genesys system) highlights the flaws of dice pools in my opinion.   People are free to like it though but I reached my limit of custom dice with Xwing.

The dice pools in FFG's Star Wars/Genesys do something that no version of D&D does: it generates results on 2 axis (Success---Failure and Advantage---Threat) with additional possiblities too  (Triumph and Despair). This allows every dice pool to give six possible outcome (and that's not including Triumph & Despair). You might not like it, but it does offer mechanics and outcomes that most dice systems simply do not.

This is true, but you could also do all of this with a deck of cards or an odds or evens over or under TN mechanic. I don't actually think Genesys needed the custom dice for anything except flavor, and making a minor usability concession for a minor flavor increase is generally an annoyance.

My other complaint about Genesys is that it compels you to think about these additional possibilities even if you don't feel like it. Now, yes, generally this is partially a familiarity with the mechanic problem, but Genesys doesn't work particularly well in edge cases where Triumph or Despair are hard to interpret, it doesn't work well when you are having an off day as a GM, it's an annoying system to learn, the flavor it delivers is ho hum...and it's all gated behind custom dice. This is kind of a death by a thousand cuts scenario where a truly great game could have pulled off any one of these tradeoffs, but when you add them all together it makes for a pretty ho hum game.

It's memorable for being strange more than it's memorable for being good.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 08, 2024, 12:57:14 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 07, 2024, 08:22:48 PM
6. Designers are bored with the same old dice mechanics they've been using for decades

This comes up for me professionally. I work as a trainer, and there are really just a few basic movements which, if you do them right and progress the effort over time, it improves people's lives. Squat, push, pull, etc. But how entertaining is it for me as a trainer to teach yet another person to squat, and to watch yet another set of squats? After a few years and a few hundred thousand repetitions it gets old. It's boring.

But here's the thing: yes, it's boring for me, but it's not boring for the person getting under the bar to unrack and then grind out a heavy squat. They might feel fear or apprehension, but not boredom. And it's not about me.

Same for a game designer or GM - it's not about me. It's about the players. The game designer or game master is there to help the players have fun. And once you help other people have fun, guess what, you have fun, too.

That metaphor makes sense to me.  I've been weight training on and off for over 30 years, and I'm not bored with the basics.  I generally just want to get my sets in and get on with my life.  I'll see a trainer occasionally for ideas, but I'm not super interested in learning unusual exercises unless it gets me significantly different results, which usually isn't the case.

On the other hand, I've been playing RPGs a bit longer than that and I really am bored with d20s, so I'm not sure how good the parallel is