So reading Kaye's wiki bio, the part where he dies, and Blume says "hey, my dad can invest..." my brain immediately went:

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 02, 2024, 06:44:51 AM
Flint Dille

I dunno, that dude doesn't seem like a dick or anything, he just saw an opportunity to get Buck Rogers back into public consciousness. And it's not like BR is some horseshit nonsense, it was literally one of the biggest scifi/pulp properties for a long time.

Quote from: Brad on March 03, 2024, 03:06:19 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 02, 2024, 06:44:51 AM
Flint Dille

I dunno, that dude doesn't seem like a dick or anything, he just saw an opportunity to get Buck Rogers back into public consciousness. And it's not like BR is some horseshit nonsense, it was literally one of the biggest scifi/pulp properties for a long time.

According to folk at TSR at the time, Dille was into RPGs, but needed help writing the replacement BR RPG that cleaved closer to the original sources of the comics. And reading my notes it turns out I was wrong on one assumption and it was Flint who introduced his sister to Gygax and Gygax hired her for her managerial skills. Of course the Blumes fucked that up.

Thanks for posting this thread, and slicing away at the mystical nature of the upcoming WOTC release.

Please get more and more of the early D&D stuff, into the public domain.  Bypass WOTC's ability to control it.

Bravo!!!

It's so interesting to see Arneson's side validated after so many years of people claiming he was some kind of know nothing.

At the last Arnecon we received a bunch of never seen material we are about to publish with the Arneson estate. This is the difference in how we work, the Arneson family will benefit from our next publication, unlike the new book by WOOTCIE which will not give any profit to the Arneson family.

In case you hadn't noticed, no love lost between WOTC and myself.

Reading the comments you've posted and pondering.

Also, WOTC got wind of the free files and shut down the source. So you can't get the files from the National Archive anymore, though I expect a lot of people are passing them around now.

To be fair, a great deal of the scanned material isn't even copy right as there are letters and magazine articles mixed into it all. But WOOTCIE has hard hitting lawyers.

While looking up Flint Dille I came across the Sagard the Barbarian gamebooks that he and Gygax worked on. Only been able to find one to glance at. Has a similar vibe to early Tunnels & Trolls solos.

Quote from: Secrets of Blackmoor on March 09, 2024, 12:27:58 PM
It's so interesting to see Arneson's side validated after so many years of people claiming he was some kind of know nothing.

I don't think anyone thought he was a know nothing, but more of a do nothing with his genius. How much work did he produce on his own? Basically an index to OD&D.  All the rest (which isn't much) he seems to have needed a collaborator to actually get stuff written down and produced.

The biggest tragedy of the whole affair was that no one at TSR (past the initial days) really sat down and worked with him to translate his ideas and works into publishable material until the very end and the 4 Blackmoor modules we got

I always thought D&D was Gygax + Arneson, but Gygax doing most of it.

However, I've heard elsewhere that Arneson brought that overland travel, plus Braunstein (not to discard Wesley of course), plus ability scores, maybe HP and AC.

I think Gygax did the dungeons part, and chainmail.

Is that right? what else do we have for sure?

Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 11, 2024, 11:43:28 AM
I always thought D&D was Gygax + Arneson, but Gygax doing most of it.

However, I've heard elsewhere that Arneson brought that overland travel, plus Braunstein (not to discard Wesley of course), plus ability scores, maybe HP and AC.

I think Gygax did the dungeons part, and chainmail.

Is that right? what else do we have for sure?

Honestly I see this as over-correction, like some people do with Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

Stan had his name on everything because he was the outgoing salesman, and folks were correct to demand Jack get recognition for his work. But then people (being people) overshot, and now people unironically want to paint Lee as a figurehead that stole ideas.

It's still Gygax's game, we just have to acknowledge he had a couple of lesser, but important creative partners.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 11, 2024, 12:04:52 PMIt's still Gygax's game, we just have to acknowledge he had a couple of lesser, but important creative partners.

I always try to break it down thusly:

Godfather of Roleplaying Games: Dave Wesely
Father of Roleplaying Games: Dave Arneson
Creator of Dungeons & Dragons: E. Gary Gygax

If people cannot acknowledge that Gygax is the reason we have D&D, then they're being insane. Arneson certainly contributed, but Gygax is the reason we play now, whereas it probably would have remained some small niche hobby for years on end. But Arneson is not solely the 'hero' either. If not for Dave Wesely and the Braunstein game, Arneson might not have made Blackmoor.

Quote from: JeremyR on March 10, 2024, 10:00:39 PM
...
I don't think anyone thought he was a know nothing, but more of a do nothing with his genius. How much work did he produce on his own? Basically an index to OD&D.  All the rest (which isn't much) he seems to have needed a collaborator to actually get stuff written down and produced.
...

That is my impression as well.

Arneson was more of a "big idea" kind of genius. He clearly needed help to translate his thoughts/notes to an useable product.

Arneson's idea was lightning. But it took Gygax to do the work, refine it, put it in the bottle, and release it out into the world.


But I must give credit where credit is due:

Making the creative transition from a wargaming braunstein, to RPG's as we know them today is clearly not as straightforward as many would have people believe.

"People were dabbling in similar stuff..." "RPG's would have eventually been made by someone..." "Blah blah blah..."

D&D only had competitors After they first saw D&D...

Yes, after you've seen it, it is a very replicable idea. But some very smart, very creative people, only took up RPG's when they saw Arneson's game/D&D first. Including Dave Wesely.

Arneson was the one that saw it in his mind, and did it. 

Everyone else (no matter how conceptually close people try to argue that they got), did jack shit until they saw D&D on the shelf.

Period.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on March 11, 2024, 11:43:28 AM
I always thought D&D was Gygax + Arneson, but Gygax doing most of it.

However, I've heard elsewhere that Arneson brought that overland travel, plus Braunstein (not to discard Wesley of course), plus ability scores, maybe HP and AC.

I think Gygax did the dungeons part, and chainmail.

Is that right? what else do we have for sure?

Pretty sure Arneson was the one who came up with the idea of the "dungeon" as a playing field. It was an evolution of David Wesely's "Braunstein" games. He was using dungeon exploration at least as early as 1972, maybe sooner, and definitely before he showed Gygax what he'd been doing.

Without Gygax Arneson would have been a Sears security guard playing his war game knockoff until death. RPGs wouldn't exist, probably, and there wouldn't be furry conventions. So maybe we should hate Gygax for a different reason.

I don't like to take sides and point fingers. I see both Arneson and Gygax as great creators. If these two fellows had never met then we might never have had D&D as we know it. Dave invited Gary to play Blackmoor and  a whole new hobby was born. We don't know what Gary may have come up with had he never played Blackmooor, and if Gary had never played the the Blackmoor game it would have probably just been a quirkly little game played by Dave and his friends. It took both the peanut butter AND the chocolate to make the perfect Reese's D&D.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 11, 2024, 09:13:24 PM
I don't like to take sides and point fingers. I see both Arneson and Gygax as great creators. If these two fellows had never met then we might never have had D&D as we know it. Dave invited Gary to play Blackmoor and  a whole new hobby was born. We don't know what Gary may have come up with had he never played Blackmooor, and if Gary had never played the the Blackmoor game it would have probably just been a quirkly little game played by Dave and his friends. It took both the peanut butter AND the chocolate to make the perfect Reese's D&D.

Greetings!

I agree entirely, my friend. I have never understood why some people get all worked up about this. It is not a super complex or difficult subject to understand. Just like you said--Peanut Butter and Chocolate, to make Reese's D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK