Quote from: Ratman_tf;1106452So, do you prefer armor to soak damage (damage reduction) or deflect (adds to armor class)?

I don't believe in "to hit" rolls.

Has to be soak for me I think? The Runequest system always made more sense to me. Although what would you call Rolemaster in this regard? A kind of advanced deflecting armor system?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1106896I don't believe in "to hit" rolls.

They exist whether or not you believe in them.

Quote from: Trond;1106900Has to be soak for me I think? The Runequest system always made more sense to me. Although what would you call Rolemaster in this regard? A kind of advanced deflecting armor system?

A mix of both. Light armor makes you harder to hit and heavy armor makes you easier to hit but reduces damage. As with D&D, my caveat is that you don't feel the effect of armour - unless you have been playing for a while. An armor saving throw or a DR mechanic has a direct, palpable impact.

I generally like the idea of armor reducing damage (soaking hits) better than an all-or-nothing adjusting of a hit to a miss (like AC), but in practice I find many soaking systems bog down and get tedious in play. Both systems can be OK, but then you have wild ideas like the Shadowrun 6 idea that armor is simply there to add to your (or your opponent's) Edge (a luck rating) and it all goes to shit.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1107072A mix of both. Light armor makes you harder to hit and heavy armor makes you easier to hit but reduces damage. As with D&D, my caveat is that you don't feel the effect of armour - unless you have been playing for a while. An armor saving throw or a DR mechanic has a direct, palpable impact.

That's a good way to put it. Boy, it's been a decade or so since I last played Rolemaster.

After trying just about every type of armor mechanic, I've found an armor saving throw to work best. It doesn't have the scaling issues that DR has and it also makes it so the to-hit roll doesn't have to take armor deflection into account, meaning that it works better when there is little to no armor (such as with swashbucklers and guns).

If I had to use armor as DR, I wouldn't use the fixed values from Runequest (the game which burned me on armor as DR) but would use the variable armor DR values from Stormbringer/Elric.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1107090After trying just about every type of armor mechanic, I've found an armor saving throw to work best. It doesn't have the scaling issues that DR has and it also makes it so the to-hit roll doesn't have to take armor deflection into account, meaning that it works better when there is little to no armor (such as with swashbucklers and guns).

If I had to use armor as DR, I wouldn't use the fixed values from Runequest (the game which burned me on armor as DR) but would use the variable armor DR values from Stormbringer/Elric.

What's armor saving throw, and variable DR?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1107093What's armor saving throw, and variable DR?

Armor saving throws are seen in mini games like Warhammer (and 40K). As an example, after you roll to hit (based on your skill) and roll to damage (based on the power of the attack), the defender rolls the armor save to see if the armor stops the damage. Some weapons can completely bypass armor, but they do not make it any easier to actually hit the target. Likewise, in an RPG using such a system, the defender's skill in avoiding blows (and with Dex) might come up on the roll to hit, but it wouldn't change the chance of armor stopping a blow that lands.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1107101Armor saving throws are seen in mini games like Warhammer (and 40K). As an example, after you roll to hit (based on your skill) and roll to damage (based on the power of the attack), the defender rolls the armor save to see if the armor stops the damage. Some weapons can completely bypass armor, but they do not make it any easier to actually hit the target. Likewise, in an RPG using such a system, the defender's skill in avoiding blows (and with Dex) might come up on the roll to hit, but it wouldn't change the chance of armor stopping a blow that lands.

Huh, so a whole third roll? Doesn't that slow things down? What does the to-hit roll hit against if not AC?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1107103Huh, so a whole third roll? Doesn't that slow things down? What does the to-hit roll hit against if not AC?

Yes, it can slow things down. For some this is an acceptable cost for more granularity.

The to-hit roll in melee is usually an opposed skill roll, or a roll against a static value based on such, while at range it is often based upon the range. Modifiers might apply in both cases according to the system.

Certain weapons might also modify the armor save, such as maces and warhammers being well suited to bashing through plate.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1107103Huh, so a whole third roll? Doesn't that slow things down? What does the to-hit roll hit against if not AC?

The same thing as when armor is DR. It goes against their agility and/or weapon skill.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1107090If I had to use armor as DR, I wouldn't use the fixed values from Runequest (the game which burned me on armor as DR) but would use the variable armor DR values from Stormbringer/Elric.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1107093What's armor saving throw, and variable DR?

I don't know armor saving throws, but Stormbringer was the first game I saw where the effect of armor was to reduce damage by a die roll rather than a fixed amount; it was the one distinctive thing I remember about it. My copy is in one of the many boxes in the basement so it would require a major expedition for me to get more details.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1107103Huh, so a whole third roll? Doesn't that slow things down?

Not as much as you'd think as the player can roll his armor save at the same time I roll damage. I don't use that many armor save modifiers so the players usually just roll what's on their sheet, like a regular D&D saving throw.

Also, because the chance to hit is based on skill vs skill, most monsters don't actually need an armor save to survive. It's mainly for PCs and bosses or monsters with notoriously thick skin like dragons or giant bugs.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1107105Yes, it can slow things down. For some this is an acceptable cost for more granularity.

Yeah, if you eliminate bonus actions and multiple attacks, you're good to go. Especially since these tend to be damage multipliers that are a leverage point for power gamers and tend to give GMs headaches - be it 40K Roleplay, RIFTS or Shadowrun. Plus an additional armour saving throw is at least not mechanically redundant like multiple attack rolls in one turn.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1107105Certain weapons might also modify the armor save, such as maces and warhammers being well suited to bashing through plate.

The problem with the armour save approach in RPGs is the question of how attacker skill affects it, if at all (where KotBL, as-is, falls short). Because in theory, high melee combat skill should help you bypass the enemy's parrying/dodging efforts and his armor at the same time.

This is where D&D's deflection approach also has an edge over soak-based approaches, even most hit location-based soak mechanics, as they too generally fail to address deliberate hit placement at soft spots.