Quote from: AsenRG;935060What do you mean by "melee-type"? Are archer fighters melee types, do thieves count, or wizards with close-range damage spells:)?

You dirty bastard. Okay you got me on this.

Quote from: AsenRG;935060As a hoserule, it would sure make sense in Low Fantasy on your 3rd level of Barbarian, when you have to have some unique power, but it sure wouldn't encompass all the fighters out there.
It might be done in ACKS as a class power, too.
And I seem to remember that when playing Warhammer, you suffer less damage when you purchase Toughness upgrades, so in essence it was a Profession feature;).

Not sure whether any of these is what you're looking for, though.

Yeah that's kinda what I figured. It would seem to be a good enough idea as a class-feature for a non-DR kinda game for a class to have it. I couldn't think of any game in particular that did it.

Quote from: Skarg;935061Not as a class feature but in classless games as a skill/talent/advantage, TFT has Warrior and Veteran Talents which add DR representing "rolling with the blow" etc. GURPS has the Toughness advantage. In each case the DR stacks with DR from armor.

Yeah - in most cases I can think of where DR is in play officially by the rules, it's almost always something baked into a non-class ability, like a Feat/Talent/Gear etc.

Quote from: Omega;935172Theres also Tunnels and Trolls. Warriors get double defense from armour.

Point, but it requires you having armour. And then you might as well argue that they also get more use out of their personal adds than Wizards and Citizens.
And personal adds prevent damage as well:).

Quote from: tenbones;935251You dirty bastard. Okay you got me on this.

Actually, that was a serious question. I just wanted to know what kind of answers you've been looking for.

QuoteYeah that's kinda what I figured. It would seem to be a good enough idea as a class-feature for a non-DR kinda game for a class to have it. I couldn't think of any game in particular that did it.

Actually, Warhammer is a DR game;).

Would it be feasible to change a Rogue's sneak attach to flat out ignore the damage reduction of armor? That way knives would still be useful to a sneaky rogue.

Quote from: AsenRG;935383Actually, that was a serious question. I just wanted to know what kind of answers you've been looking for.

Well I was just ruminating about making armor-wearing characters within class systems more substantial by making it a class feature (to show their combat prowess, training etc) to give them DR while wearing armor. My dumb assumption only went as far as "melee characters" which you astutely pointed out the grotesque flaw in my hasty question (thereby earning you the 'Dirty Bastard' Achievement and ending up on *The List*) because clearly, ranged characters *could* feasibly have this kind of feature - perhaps with other armors?

Off the top of my head I couldn't think of any game that actually does this (but I'm sure there is.)

Quote from: AsenRG;935383Actually, Warhammer is a DR game;).

Right! But Warhammer isn't exactly a "class"-based game. It's more like a template-character thing (at least it was when I played Warhammer Fantasy). Talislanta falls into this category too. Without being too nitpicky I'm thinking about strictly class-based games. 1e introduced it - but they limited it to specific Armor (Full and Field Plate).

Quote from: Necrozius;935414Would it be feasible to change a Rogue's sneak attach to flat out ignore the damage reduction of armor? That way knives would still be useful to a sneaky rogue.

Sure! I know couple DR games that do this. Technically anyone can do it in Savage Worlds (you just take the Called Shot penalty). In Talislanta, you have to take a penalty equal to the DR value of the armor, which is elegant since it's trading enhanced damage leveraged against the skill of the attacker. Doubly so since Rogue-type characters will be attacking from stealth and that added bonus isn't penalized vs an unwary but more skilled combatant like a dedicated soldier. It has verisimilitude and mechanics that support it. win/win

Quote from: Larsdangly;934622Exactly. Get your shit together, Xanther!

Well I did say it wasn't in the original DMG.  Just another reason I don't use Unearthed Arcana.  I should have stuck with my date disclaimer on things D&D.  Yet looking at that Unearthed Arcana rule, can see why you'd never use it.

Quote from: AsenRG;935383Point, but it requires you having armour. And then you might as well argue that they also get more use out of their personal adds than Wizards and Citizens.
And personal adds prevent damage as well:).

Thats what he asked. Any classes with DR built in. And T&T warriors have built in that they get more oomph from armour than any other.

In 5e you have some odd cases like the Barbarian can try to shrug off damage that would reduce them to zero HP. Not quite DR. The Fighter Battle Master path on the other hand has the parry maneuver which is DR. The Monk has one vs missiles only. But it is DR. And the Rogue gets uncanny dodge which halves damage from attacks they can see.

BTW, quite a few unarmed feats in Spycraft give you DR2 when fighting unarmed. And I think that if you also have another feat, you can also get that same benefit while armed:).

I think I like Spycraft 2.0 more and more;).

Quote from: Omega;935568Thats what he asked. Any classes with DR built in. And T&T warriors have built in that they get more oomph from armour than any other.

In 5e you have some odd cases like the Barbarian can try to shrug off damage that would reduce them to zero HP. Not quite DR. The Fighter Battle Master path on the other hand has the parry maneuver which is DR. The Monk has one vs missiles only. But it is DR. And the Rogue gets uncanny dodge which halves damage from attacks they can see.

The Parry Maneuver is odd, it uses skill to reduce damage, but armour to dodge it.  Also, technically, anything that gives you 'resistance' to damage types could be construed as a form of Damage Reduction in 5e, I suppose.  Still an odd hack, especially with the Parry thing.

Also, some races, like the Goliath has DR built into them.  So it's not like it's undoable in 4e.

I've been wrestling with this while working on a Heroic Fantasy companion for ACKS (sort of our answer to Mongoose Conan). Here's the solution I've come up with... Feedback welcome.

ATTACKS AND ARMOR PENETRATION OF LARGE MONSTERS
All monsters larger than men suffer an attack throw penalty based on their size category. This penalty applies to all attacks by the monster. In exchange, the monster gains a commensurate amount of armor penetration. Armor penetration allows a monster to ignore a number of points of the target’s Armor Class from armor, shields, magical adjustments to armor and shields, Weapon & Shield proficiency, magical items "of armor", and spells that create magical armor or shields or render the subject invulnerable. However, armor penetration cannot ignore Armor Class from DEX, Graceful Fighting ability, Swashbuckling proficiency, magical items and spells "of protection", and spells that improve AC through luck, speed, or divine favor.

Size Category                    Attack Throw Penalty   Armor Penetration
Man-sized (399 lbs or less)                 0                   0
Large (400 – 1,999 lbs)                 -2                   2
Huge (2,000 – 7,999 lbs)                -4               4
Gigantic (4 – 15 tons)                        -6            6
In most cases, a monster will be attacking a foe with more armor than its armor penetration, and the attack throw penalty and armor penetration will cancel each other out. However, when a target is wearing less armor than the monster’s armor penetration, it will have a relatively harder time hitting the target. This is much to the benefit of heroic fantasy archetypes such as barbarians in loincloths, bladedancers in chainmail bikinis, and thieves in leather armor.

EXAMPLE: An ogre, a large creature with an attack throw of 6+, is fighting a fighter and a thief. In the first round, it attacks the fighter. The fighter is wearing plate armor (AC 6). The ogre suffers a -2 penalty to its attack throw, but it ignores 2 points of armor. Its target value to hit the fighter is (6+2+6-2) 12+. In the second round, the ogre attacks the thief. The thief is wearing no armor but has DEX 18, so he has AC 3. The ogre suffers a -2 penalty to its attack throw because of its size. It could ignore 2 points of armor, but the thief is not wearing any. The ogre’s target value to hit the thief is (6+2+3) 11+.

Note that if this rule were not applied, the ogre’s target value to hit the fighter would still be (6+6) 12+, but the ogre’s target value to hit the thief would only be (6+3) 9+.  Nimble, lightly armored characters benefit from this rule.

Since it alters a core mechanic of ACKS, the Attacks and Armor Penetration of Large Monsters rule deserves a bit of explanation. In ACKS and other D20-based fantasy RPGs, armor protects its wearer by making him harder to successfully attack. This rule is much-maligned, largely by those who believe armor “shouldn’t make you harder to hit”. But historically, that’s just what armor did. Armor worked. In a careful survey, From Sumer to Ancient Rome reviewed the weapons available to ancient warriors and found they could generate 70-100 joules of kinetic energy, while to penetrate 2mm of bronze on leather took in excess of 120+ joules! Nor would “bludgeon force still kill"—even a mighty 110-joule blow from a mace would have its kinetic energy distributed by the armor, such that it is reduced to the equivalent of a 15-joule blow. In other words, attacks that struck armor bounced off with little harm done; successful attacks were those that struck gaps in the armor. ACKS’s Armor Class is a reasonable and playable approximation of this reality.

What about when the combatants are not humans producing 70-100 joules, but instead are elephants, ogres, dragons, or other monsters capable of delivering far more kinetic energy? In ACKS, bigger monsters have higher Hit Dice; and monsters with higher Hit Dice have better attack throws. An ogre, with 4 HD, has an attack throw of 6+; it strikes a knight in chainmail (AC 4) as easily as a 1st level fighter (attack throw 10+) strikes an unarmored foe (AC 0). Since an ogre and a fighter probably have similar dexterity and combat training, the difference in accuracy obviously reflects the ogre’s much greater strength. An ogre can cleave through chainmail like a child snapping twigs, so the target is effectively “unarmored” against its blows. Conversely, since a fighter’s blows will be stopped by chainmail, he needs to aim for the neck, armpits, thighs, and other unarmored areas, and thus has a harder time hitting. Armor Class remains a reasonable and playable approximation of the reality of the game world.

Or does it? After all, the same ogre attacking an unarmored target (AC 0) will hit the unarmored target on a 6+ to the fighter’s 10+. In this case, it can’t be that the ogre’s strength is allowing it to cleave through armor – the target isn’t wearing any! Thus, we have a conundrum: Confront an ogre with an armored knight and his fighting skills seem to rely on brute force to bash through armor. Put an ogre against a target with no armor, and the ogre suddenly becomes a graceful ballerina of death.

The conundrum gets worse when factors other than armor begin to intrude on Armor Class, such as DEX modifier, Swashbuckling proficiency or Graceful Fighting ability. It is historically plausible that an elephant (attack throw 3+) could trample a plate-armored knight (AC 7) as easily as a knight (attack throw 10+) can trample a peasant (AC 0). But it is rather implausible that the elephant could trample a highly mobile skirmisher (AC 5 due to DEX 18 and Swashbuckling) more easily than it could trample the plate-armored knight. Historically, when facing elephants, highly mobile skirmishers were the troops-of-choice, precisely because mobility was the only defense against a monstrous beast that could crush plated troops like ants.

In traditional fantasy games, this conundrum often has little impact, because most characters wading into battle are wearing plate armor, carrying a shield, and probably benefiting from magic to boot. In heroic fantasy, however, the heroes are often very lightly armored, either because they are roguish sorts who prize mobility, or barbarian contenders for the Mister and Miss Vallejo calendar 2000 B.C.

Some Judges may inquire whether we have erred in assuming that a monster’s improvement in attack throw from Hit Dice is necessarily due to greater mass and strength.  Isn’t it possible that some of the monster’s improvement in attack throw is from skill and ferocity? Of course! But this is already provided for in the rules. Compare an 800-lb sabre-tooth tiger (8 HD, large size, attack throw 3+) with a 9,000-lb elephant (8 HD, gigantic size, attack throw 3+). The sabre-tooth tiger will have a -2 attack throw penalty and 2 points of armor penetration; the elephant will have a -6 attack throw penalty and 6 points of armor penetration. The two are co-equal against heavy troops, but the sabre-tooth’s attacks will fare better against dexterous targets, as the sabre-tooth is itself fast and ferocious. For more details on how to calculate the Hit Dice of monsters based on their size and ferocity, see Lairs & Encounters.  

****and****
HIT POINTS
Hit points are a measure of a character’s ability to survive in combat. Hit points are not a direct representation of the character’s capacity to receive physical injury. A character with 40 hp cannot survive eight sword stabs to the stomach! Rather, they represent a holistic combination of fighting skill, stamina, luck, and the favor of the gods, all of which contribute to helping the character roll with blows and survive attacks that would have killed a lesser combatant. Therefore, the amount of damage a weapon deals must be understood relative to the hit points of the character struck. It is the percentage of hit points lost, not the raw number lost, that indicates how physically wounded a character or monster is.

However, in virtually every retro-clone (including ACKS), the elegant abstraction of hit points is marred by an asymmetry between damage and healing. Consider two characters, a normal man with 5 hp and an epic hero with 40 hp. When the normal man is dealt 4 points of damage by a sword, this is a grievous blow (80% of his hit points); when the epic hero is dealt the same 4 points of damage, this is merely a flesh wound (10% of his hp). This is exactly as it should be. Yet when the epic hero is treated with cure light wounds, he recovers 1d6+1 points of damage – enough to repair a light wound, as the spell suggests; while when the normal man is treated with cure light wounds, he is likely to recover from what we just said was a grievous blow that brought him near death. To fix this asymmetry, The Heroic Fantasy Companion offers rules for proportional healing.

All beings recover hit points through rest. For each full day of complete rest in reasonably sanitary conditions, a creature will recover its base healing rate (BHR). If its rest is interrupted, the creature will not heal that day. A creature’s base healing rate is based on its maximum hit points, as shown on the Base Healing Rate table. A character’s BHR should be recorded on its character sheet, and updated each time the character gains additional hit points.

EXAMPLE: Athelstan has 12 hp. His base healing rate is 1d4 hp per day. With a full day of complete rest in sanitary conditions, Athelstan will recover between 1 and 4 hp. His friend, Thorcigar, has 40hp. Thorcigar's base healing rate is 2d6 hp per day. Thorcigar will recover 2-12 hp per day of complete rest.

Healing also occurs through magic, such as potions or spells. This kind of healing is instantaneous and will typically be equal to one or more days of rest. For instance, the recipient of a cure light wounds spell is healed as if he had rested for one day. The recipient of a cure critical wounds spell is healed as if he had rested for five days.

EXAMPLE: Athelstan takes 11 points of damage and is reduced to 1hp. He is healed with a cure critical wounds spell, and heals as if he had rested for five days. Since his base healing rate is 1d4 hp per day, he rolls 5d4. The result is a 9, restoring him to 10hp. Thorcigar, meanwhile, has also taken 11 points of damage, leaving him at 29hp. He is healed with a cure light wound spell, so he heals as if he had rested for one day. Since his base healing rate is 2d6 hp per day, he rolls 2d6. The result is an 8, restoring him to 37hp.

Quote from: amacris;935701I've been wrestling with this while working on a Heroic Fantasy companion for ACKS (sort of our answer to Mongoose Conan). Here's the solution I've come up with... Feedback welcome.

Seems good to me, though I assure you, putting me in armour doesn't make me easier to connect with my body, just easier to tire me out:).

Quote from: amacris;935701I've been wrestling with this while working on a Heroic Fantasy companion for ACKS (sort of our answer to Mongoose Conan). Here's the solution I've come up with... Feedback welcome.

Seems good to me, though I assure you, putting me in armour doesn't make it easier to connect with my body. It does make me easier to tire out, if it's hot, but has the opposite effect when playing in the cold, outside:).
And even against an elephant, armour would make it easier to survive glancing blows, which would be best represented by having a Partial Success result;).

Quote from: AsenRG;935060It might be done in ACKS as a class power, too.

Indeed it might.  The Dwarven Fury class in the ACKS Player's Companion has the "flesh runes" ability.  They can't wear armor, but they get a 2-point AC bonus and 1 point of DR at level 1, increasing to a max of 6 AC/3 DR as they level up.

Quote from: nDervish;936639Indeed it might.  The Dwarven Fury class in the ACKS Player's Companion has the "flesh runes" ability.  They can't wear armor, but they get a 2-point AC bonus and 1 point of DR at level 1, increasing to a max of 6 AC/3 DR as they level up.

I know:). The fun part is that if you combine that with Swaschbuckler and another speed defence trait, you quickly reach the point where a lot of armours are only worsening your unarmoured defence.
Abusing the system until it says "uncle" apart, I'd allow you to take a standard power and exchange the AC bonus for DR, on top of the "tattooed runes" ability, but that might be just me;).