You know, just because some people used Evil alignment as an excuse for playing a murderhobo, doesn't meant that an idea of Evil PC in the party is bad - just like quite a few people "failed" the paladin class by using it to play Lawful Stupid.

Should we remove the paladin class as well, or teach people how to RP better?

This is basically an argument "Let's destroy all guns in the world, because one dumb kid shot himself in the foot."

I'm sort of optimistic. My beef with Pathfinder is that they named it "Pathfinder," forcing me to search for it as "Paizo" or PFSRD. Stupid.

I really want D&D to be good and for everyone to play it.

Quote from: Rincewind1;508831You know, just because some people used Evil alignment as an excuse for playing a murderhobo, doesn't meant that an idea of Evil PC in the party is bad - just like quite a few people "failed" the paladin class by using it to play Lawful Stupid.

Should we remove the paladin class as well, or teach people how to RP better?

This is basically an argument "Let's destroy all guns in the world, because one dumb kid shot himself in the foot."

I have a Paladin and an Anti-Paladin in the same group together. So funny.

Paladin, "Hey, I just detected evil on that guy."

Anti-Paladin, "Hey bud... my friend here says you evil... so you think you evil?"

Quote from: Rincewind1;508831You know, just because some people used Evil alignment as an excuse for playing a murderhobo, doesn't meant that an idea of Evil PC in the party is bad - just like quite a few people "failed" the paladin class by using it to play Lawful Stupid.

Should we remove the paladin class as well, or teach people how to RP better?

This is basically an argument "Let's destroy all guns in the world, because one dumb kid shot himself in the foot."

Evil people are always evil. Paladins know it, detect it, and they smite that shit down!

Quote from: 1989;508819No, way, man, 2e is the shit.

You've got an extra Definite Article there, son.

QuoteGreat artwork in the corebooks, not the amateur hour that was the 1e PHB (don't get me wrong, I understand that they were on a budget, and they did what they could; has a real made-in-your-garage feel . . . like a bunch of buddies, with each contributing what he could).

What.

No, really, what?  that pap?  That generic paint-by-numbers Larry Dullmore pap spread across 2e ignites your imagination?  Sure there's bad stuff in 1e art, but the good stuff is years better than the best 2e stuff and the bad stuff in 2e art abounds.

QuoteAl-Qadim.  

crap

QuoteRavenloft.

railroad crap

QuotePlanescape. Dark Sun.

not D&D, crap

QuoteGot rid of the lame assassins (who needs evil PCs, come on).

Oh god, you are just trolling now.  How's the Pulling family doing these days?  Do you have a framed copy of TSR's Standards & Practices?  Do icky icky half orcs make you all sweaty?

QuoteBest Monster Manual.

Yep, you sure are.

QuoteBest fluff supplements.

Useless shit designed to suck money out of the wallets of the unimaginative.

Quote2e was the edition that emphasized roleplaying and world exploration for the sake of world exploration.

2e was the edition that emphasized the removal of Gygax's influence on the game's design for the sake of fucking him over.

QuoteAnyway, the main thing for me is to lose the miniatures focus of 3e and 4e. I am looking forward to coming back to D&D after being out of it since 1999 (2e). It's been a long, 13-year exodus, and I really am looking forward to coming back home. Hope they don't mess it up. I really want to read the philosophical, designer-type stuff that they will write in the new books, probably in the intro (seeing as we have learned from 4e that RPGs should not be board wargames).

You're still not getting 2e back.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;508846You've got an extra Definite Article there, son.






What.

No, really, what?  that pap?  That generic paint-by-numbers Larry Dullmore pap spread across 2e ignites your imagination?  Sure there's bad stuff in 1e art, but the good stuff is years better than the best 2e stuff and the bad stuff in 2e art abounds.



crap



railroad crap



not D&D, crap



Oh god, you are just trolling now.  How's the Pulling family doing these days?  Do you have a framed copy of TSR's Standards & Practices?  Do icky icky half orcs make you all sweaty?



Yep, you sure are.



Useless shit designed to suck money out of the wallets of the unimaginative.



2e was the edition that emphasized the removal of Gygax's influence on the game's design for the sake of fucking him over.



You're still not getting 2e back.

lol, all I really want is a TSR-era combat system, i.e., sans grids, etc. Since this has been confirmed by WotC, I am really looking forward to 5e. It won't be as good as 2e, but hopefully everyone will get the options they want.

QuoteRavenloft.
railroad crap

Quote:
Planescape. Dark Sun.
not D&D, crap

I cheer for everything else, DD, but those? That's just full steam ahead into Foolishness Zone. Fuck it, I didn't even read 2e's Player Handbook and I actually read those, so I could use them for my 3e games (well, when I did play 3e games, that is).

Tchoo Tchoo!

Quote from: Rincewind1;508831You know, just because some people used Evil alignment as an excuse for playing a murderhobo, doesn't meant that an idea of Evil PC in the party is bad - just like quite a few people "failed" the paladin class by using it to play Lawful Stupid.

Should we remove the paladin class as well, or teach people how to RP better?

I completely agree with this. I think the comparison between bad Paladin RP and bad Assassin RP is totally apt, and this extends to the whole Evil alignment in fact. Playing Evil is awesome. When done right. You can play Evil and participate to the D&D group meaningfully, being a total buddy of the other gamers at the table while cooperating in-character with selfish goals in mind.

It's not hard. It's just that the advice given about it is usually weak, devoid of actual examples, or corny beyond belief (Book of Vile Darkness, I am looking at you).

Quote from: Benoist;508854I completely agree with this. I think the comparison between bad Paladin RP and bad Assassin RP is totally apt, and this extends to the whole Evil alignment in fact. Playing Evil is awesome. When done right. You can play Evil and participate to the D&D group meaningfully, being a total buddy of the other gamers at the table while cooperating in-character with selfish goals in mind.

It's not hard. It's just that the advice given about it is usually weak, devoid of actual examples, or corny beyond belief (Book of Vile Darkness, I am looking at you).

After all - we all have anecdotes of Evil Characters Blowing Up Party...

But we also all have anecdotes of Paladins Blowing Up Party.



The clue to both classes is simple:

Don't be a retard, and play the character like a 2d cardboard cut out.

I mean hells - when recruiting for my current campaign, one of the guys wanted to play a Paladin. After he started asking me about ideas, and basically understanding the class as "Lawful Stupid", because I told him that torture is still off, I just told him - "No Pally for you." Just because you aren't a Punisher, doesn't mean you can't be a bastard, mean paladin.

Edit: Hm. Perhaps after I am done with my ranting about Tragedy - based Campaign (I hope it doesn't suck too much so far!) I should write a bit about playing Evil Characters in DnD - such I really had done it a lot, and to great success.

Second Edition was a mixed bag.

New Thieves - interesting idea, used both versions.
New Bard, changed to Minstrel and used it, was ok.
Dark Sun and Planescape - awesome settings

Total Horseshit
Kits
Loss of Demons and Devils
Loss of Assassins
Time of Troubles
Art in the Monstrous Compendiums
All the black book shit

For me, Second Edition was basically stuff I mined for 1e.

I6 Ravenloft the module is shit.

Ravenloft the setting is awesome but suffers from the same flaw as Dark Sun: it's not "dungeons" and "dragons". I explained that elsewhere.

Planescape is more redeemable as-is in my mind, but it too could have used more "D" and "D". The whole development of the war of factions and shit was crap, however, no doubt about it.

Quote from: Benoist;508854I completely agree with this. I think the comparison between bad Paladin RP and bad Assassin RP is totally apt, and this extends to the whole Evil alignment in fact. Playing Evil is awesome. When done right. You can play Evil and participate to the D&D group meaningfully, being a total buddy of the other gamers at the table while cooperating in-character with selfish goals in mind.

It's not hard. It's just that the advice given about it is usually weak, devoid of actual examples, or corny beyond belief (Book of Vile Darkness, I am looking at you).

Agreed.  I think Uncle Gary intended (small 'e') evil to be more along the lines of 'asshole' or 'selfish prick'.  In the case of the Assassin, 'amoral(ish) killer for hire'.  The problem gets to be most players who ran with it and wanted to play the embodiment of EVIL with a capital E-V-I-L.  As in Rapist Corpse Defiling Hitler for a starting point.  The kind of stuff that would make Ted Bundy step back and ask, "Hey, that's a little over the line, there, don't you think?"

Like most experts will say: such a person isn't evil (wilful choice), they are insane.

Quote from: Benoist;508859I6 Ravenloft the module is shit.

Ravenloft the setting is awesome but suffers from the same flaw as Dark Sun: it's not "dungeons" and "dragons". I explained that elsewhere.

Planescape is more redeemable as-is in my mind, but it too could have used more "D" and "D". The whole development of the war of factions and shit was crap, however, no doubt about it.

I dunno, I kinda liked the Faction Wars. And the Orcus Skull adventure was epic imo - at least the idea of it. Walking in the skull of a god = win.

Plus, I love gothic horror.

Quote from: CRKrueger;508858Total Horseshit
Kits

This is one of those ideas that was fantastic, but they totally screwed the pooch on execution.  The Magic-User can wield a sword, or the fighter can shoot off a couple of spells in an emergency without dual- or multi-classing?  Sign me up!  What's that you say?  The quality is all over the map and most of them make Prestige classes look absolutely well-balanced? Oh...  Same with the Monstrous Manuals.  A fucking brilliant idea they failed to implement correctly.

But the settings were pretty much the shit.  I am a Forgotten Realms fan myself, but all the settings were high quality, both in ideas and production values.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;5088462e was the edition that emphasized the removal of Gygax's influence on the game's design for the sake of fucking him over.



QUOTE]

The same old GYGAX pity story.  LOL