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Author Topic: Are we seeing the end of combat?  (Read 15817 times)

Donahue82

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #135 on: October 20, 2021, 10:47:57 PM »

My point about violence and RPGs is that,

(1) to the degree one successfully immerses and visualizes oneself in the given imaginary world, one trains one's mind to think in terms of how violence in that world is portrayed, for the purposes of that world. This means thinking that violence is the go-to solution for most problems (again, find me RPG book covers that don't feature physical violence implicit or explicit), that the psychological costs are low to nonexistent, and above all, violence is good fun;

I call BS. You mean to tell me that geeks and nerds are driven towards violence cause of playing games. I am sorry but if you can't differentiate between a game and the real world you aren't welcome at my table. I would also point out that the people resorting to violence first are by far the SJWs.

(2) The woke mob can't not recognize the violent content of RPGs as something to exploit. So, they infiltrate the hobby (cons, publishers, gaming groups, clubs) with their critical theory and moral browbeating, changing the underlying assumptions of gaming and the concomitant allowable expressions of gaming. Violence can't just be cheap drama, it must assume propagandistic meaning, where possible;


Here is a question for you: How do you live with a fanatic? How do you live with someone who finds you heretical, and deserving of being destroyed unless you submit yourself to them. How much will you submit, because it will never be enough.

(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.); and,

Fight like hell! I have lost a lot of 2 other hobbies to those hateful bigots, I will fight how I can against them.

(4) I foresee that for all the gritty optimism about how "RPGnet is dying" etc., I still see, according to their own stats anyway, they have over 100,000 members and this place has under 9,000. And, of the ones who bothered to respond to this thread, half see no problem, while the other half slag the messenger. At the risk of being a Cassandra, I think this is naïve.

How many of their members are still active? I have an RPGnet account but haven't been on in years cause I got sick of the place.

Shasarak

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #136 on: October 20, 2021, 11:08:07 PM »
(4) I foresee that for all the gritty optimism about how "RPGnet is dying" etc., I still see, according to their own stats anyway, they have over 100,000 members and this place has under 9,000. And, of the ones who bothered to respond to this thread, half see no problem, while the other half slag the messenger. At the risk of being a Cassandra, I think this is naïve.

I have not seen even one person supporting your proposition that "We are seeing the end of combat"

Maybe you could rustle up some of your 100,000 mates?
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Neoplatonist1

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #137 on: October 20, 2021, 11:14:57 PM »

My point about violence and RPGs is that,

(1) to the degree one successfully immerses and visualizes oneself in the given imaginary world, one trains one's mind to think in terms of how violence in that world is portrayed, for the purposes of that world. This means thinking that violence is the go-to solution for most problems (again, find me RPG book covers that don't feature physical violence implicit or explicit), that the psychological costs are low to nonexistent, and above all, violence is good fun;

I call BS. You mean to tell me that geeks and nerds are driven towards violence cause of playing games. I am sorry but if you can't differentiate between a game and the real world you aren't welcome at my table. I would also point out that the people resorting to violence first are by far the SJWs.

Let's not repeat the misunderstanding previous posters have made of what I have said. I never claimed RPGs cause violence or drive people towards acting violently. But, RPGs do train the mind to think about imaginary violence in that way, and that's enough for the woke mob to seize upon it as potentially exploitable, because the violence is being done in a non-woke way (e.g., bashing always-evil orcs or whatever) and therefore is "problematic". The wokies want you to think of imaginary violence only in a way that reinforces woke ideology.

Quote
(2) The woke mob can't not recognize the violent content of RPGs as something to exploit. So, they infiltrate the hobby (cons, publishers, gaming groups, clubs) with their critical theory and moral browbeating, changing the underlying assumptions of gaming and the concomitant allowable expressions of gaming. Violence can't just be cheap drama, it must assume propagandistic meaning, where possible;


Here is a question for you: How do you live with a fanatic? How do you live with someone who finds you heretical, and deserving of being destroyed unless you submit yourself to them. How much will you submit, because it will never be enough.

(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.); and,

Fight like hell! I have lost a lot of 2 other hobbies to those hateful bigots, I will fight how I can against them.

(4) I foresee that for all the gritty optimism about how "RPGnet is dying" etc., I still see, according to their own stats anyway, they have over 100,000 members and this place has under 9,000. And, of the ones who bothered to respond to this thread, half see no problem, while the other half slag the messenger. At the risk of being a Cassandra, I think this is naïve.

How many of their members are still active? I have an RPGnet account but haven't been on in years cause I got sick of the place.

Aglondir

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #138 on: October 20, 2021, 11:18:24 PM »
(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.);

What is "ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality..."? Maybe an example would help.

No offense, but you sound like the Architect in the Matrix movies. You're trying too hard. Keep it simple.



Edit: "The wokies want you to think of imaginary violence only in a way that reinforces woke ideology." Ok, that's more clear. Any examples?

« Last Edit: October 20, 2021, 11:20:46 PM by Aglondir »

HappyDaze

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #139 on: October 20, 2021, 11:23:13 PM »

My point about violence and RPGs is that,

(1) to the degree one successfully immerses and visualizes oneself in the given imaginary world, one trains one's mind to think in terms of how violence in that world is portrayed, for the purposes of that world. This means thinking that violence is the go-to solution for most problems (again, find me RPG book covers that don't feature physical violence implicit or explicit), that the psychological costs are low to nonexistent, and above all, violence is good fun;


Regarding the first point, I've seen some issues with violence being even more attractive in games where the PCs have reliable methods of stunning opponents. Star Wars and Star Trek both have this, and while the settings dictated they exist before those properties were ever games, I do feel it can create problems.

My group had a discussion of why stun isn't the default assumption for most non-military engagements. You can always kill off a stunned opponent if you feel the need, but returning life to somone you mistakenly/carelessly shot with a lethal load of blaster/phaser is a lot harder (if possible at all). Star Trek makes it easy for this mindset, at least with Starfleet character, but Star Wars is a harder sell. We rarely see heroes use stun settings in Star Wars (until the cartoons), but when it's a standard feature on almost all standard blaster weapons, you have to wonder why.

As for your points 2-4, I don't care.

Shawn Driscoll

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #140 on: October 20, 2021, 11:38:24 PM »
This business of politicizing gaming in the southpaw direction, such that all monsters must be individuals capable of free will and, so, of any alignment, has implications beyond just erasing the trope of irredeemably evil races. It also attacks the central pillar of virtually all RPGs, which is combat.

Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

Could this "woke" business therefore be the harbinger of the end of combat as cheap drama? Must all games then be sensitive to just how powerful getting into a fight is, with its ugly consequences of trauma, confusion, and murder, and, so, knock down this central pillar? If so, what will hold up the roof?
I recently discovered the Total Party Skills RPG system. It has a social combat mechanic, which I think is the best thing ever in decades as far as tabletop RPGs go. Games like Traveller can finagle a kind of sort of social/diplomatic mechanic. It too works. Just not as simple and clever/original as TPS's doing. I'm going through the rules for Escape from Planet Matriarchy! now, and just wish this core rule book was around years ago.

Neoplatonist1

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #141 on: October 20, 2021, 11:55:10 PM »
(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.);

What is "ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality..."? Maybe an example would help.

No offense, but you sound like the Architect in the Matrix movies. You're trying too hard. Keep it simple.



Edit: "The wokies want you to think of imaginary violence only in a way that reinforces woke ideology." Ok, that's more clear. Any examples?

  • Don't kill orcs on sight, they might be innocent/good
  • Categorize speciesist, sexist, homophobic cultures as evil and their agents fair game
  • Paint men and women as martial equals in all respects
  • Attach shame to any killing of women, because of their history of oppression and vulnerability
  • Redefine language as violence and enforce "anti-violence" speech codes

 




GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #142 on: October 20, 2021, 11:55:33 PM »

My point about violence and RPGs is that,

(1) to the degree one successfully immerses and visualizes oneself in the given imaginary world, one trains one's mind to think in terms of how violence in that world is portrayed, for the purposes of that world. This means thinking that violence is the go-to solution for most problems (again, find me RPG book covers that don't feature physical violence implicit or explicit), that the psychological costs are low to nonexistent, and above all, violence is good fun;

I call BS. You mean to tell me that geeks and nerds are driven towards violence cause of playing games. I am sorry but if you can't differentiate between a game and the real world you aren't welcome at my table. I would also point out that the people resorting to violence first are by far the SJWs.

Let's not repeat the misunderstanding previous posters have made of what I have said. I never claimed RPGs cause violence or drive people towards acting violently. But, RPGs do train the mind to think about imaginary violence in that way, and that's enough for the woke mob to seize upon it as potentially exploitable, because the violence is being done in a non-woke way (e.g., bashing always-evil orcs or whatever) and therefore is "problematic". The wokies want you to think of imaginary violence only in a way that reinforces woke ideology.



Right, you just want us to become the thought police, because you claim that "RPGs do train the mind to think about imaginary violence in that way".

So to save the hobby we better become the thought police before the woke thought police comes acalling.

IDGAF what you think RPGs train people to think... Unless you or any of your 100,000 mates on RPGnet can prove that:

1) "RPGs do train the mind to think about imaginary violence in that way" (What way?)
2) Such thoughts translate into real world actions.
&
3) Your "solution" about psychological consecuences or whatever BS you come up with next will stop such real world actions.

Can you prove even point 1? This is a prerequisite for any further conversation.
After you provide proof of that then you need to prove point 2.
Then you need to show that your "solution" works to prevent point 2.

So lets see the proof of your claims.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #143 on: October 21, 2021, 12:04:02 AM »
(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.);

What is "ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality..."? Maybe an example would help.

No offense, but you sound like the Architect in the Matrix movies. You're trying too hard. Keep it simple.



Edit: "The wokies want you to think of imaginary violence only in a way that reinforces woke ideology." Ok, that's more clear. Any examples?

  • Don't kill orcs on sight, they might be innocent/good
  • Categorize speciesist, sexist, homophobic cultures as evil and their agents fair game
  • Paint men and women as martial equals in all respects
  • Attach shame to any killing of women, because of their history of oppression and vulnerability
  • Redefine language as violence and enforce "anti-violence" speech codes

How exactly are they (and you their profet included) gonna make Pundit implement any of those in his games? And he's not the only one, you seem to operate under the impression that there's a single point where you can exert your woke pressure and it will work.

Don't get me wrong, it has worked (and will continue to work) on WotC, Baizuo, Evil Hat, etc. But none of those companies are "The Hobby tm".

Do you have any idea of how many independent publishers are there now? And more are added each day.

How the fuck do you and your comrades think you can make us implement your BS in our products?

Not even if you termites managed to force Drivethru to demand such things, not even then would you manage to force most of the independents to bend the knee to your cult.

You lot have been trying to control, and failing that, destroy the OSR for years. You have failed each and every time. And you will keep on failing, because you lack the fulcrum for your lever to work.

I predict you will fail always, and that if needed we'll make a fedeverse of independent stores so we can keep giving you the finger.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

SHARK

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #144 on: October 21, 2021, 12:29:34 AM »
Greetings!

Who really cares about violence in RPG's? There is violence. So what? World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XIV, GTA, Call of Duty, Age of Empires, Dragon Age, The Witcher, and Skyrim are all about violence--non-stop, wherever you go and whatever you do. Some other games also have sex and whores in them too. No one gives a fuck about any of that.

The world is full of fucking, sex, depravity, blood and violence. Every fucking day. But somehow, someone somewhere is fucking *worried* about violence in TTRPG's like D&D? No one even skips a fucking beat about the constant sex, orgies, torture, death and blood in games like VAMPIRE and WEREWOLF.

Anyone that is worried about violence in TTRPG's can POUND IT IN THEIR FUCKING ASS as they snivel and sob like cunts. Fuck these morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Aglondir

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #145 on: October 21, 2021, 12:31:15 AM »
  • Don't kill orcs on sight, they might be innocent/good
  • Categorize speciesist, sexist, homophobic cultures as evil and their agents fair game
  • Paint men and women as martial equals in all respects
  • Attach shame to any killing of women, because of their history of oppression and vulnerability
  • Redefine language as violence and enforce "anti-violence" speech codes

Gotcha. So if I understand you correctly, you're proposing that a Woke takeover of the hobby would alter combat in RPGs so it always serves the Narrative? I think that's inevitable. Not only combat. Wokeists will instill their values in other aspects of the game: character creation, task resolution, how magic works, etc.

I've long predicted that the Ranger in 6E will no longer have Favored Enemy (emphasis mine):

Quote from:  5E SRD
Choose a type of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.




« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 12:32:52 AM by Aglondir »

SHARK

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #146 on: October 21, 2021, 12:35:14 AM »
(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.);

What is "ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality..."? Maybe an example would help.

No offense, but you sound like the Architect in the Matrix movies. You're trying too hard. Keep it simple.



Edit: "The wokies want you to think of imaginary violence only in a way that reinforces woke ideology." Ok, that's more clear. Any examples?

  • Don't kill orcs on sight, they might be innocent/good
  • Categorize speciesist, sexist, homophobic cultures as evil and their agents fair game
  • Paint men and women as martial equals in all respects
  • Attach shame to any killing of women, because of their history of oppression and vulnerability
  • Redefine language as violence and enforce "anti-violence" speech codes

How exactly are they (and you their profet included) gonna make Pundit implement any of those in his games? And he's not the only one, you seem to operate under the impression that there's a single point where you can exert your woke pressure and it will work.

Don't get me wrong, it has worked (and will continue to work) on WotC, Baizuo, Evil Hat, etc. But none of those companies are "The Hobby tm".

Do you have any idea of how many independent publishers are there now? And more are added each day.

How the fuck do you and your comrades think you can make us implement your BS in our products?

Not even if you termites managed to force Drivethru to demand such things, not even then would you manage to force most of the independents to bend the knee to your cult.

You lot have been trying to control, and failing that, destroy the OSR for years. You have failed each and every time. And you will keep on failing, because you lack the fulcrum for your lever to work.

I predict you will fail always, and that if needed we'll make a fedeverse of independent stores so we can keep giving you the finger.

Greetings!

PREACH ON, HERMANO!!! ;D

To add to your commentary, I think the OSR is *GROWING*--and expanding and getting stronger every day. MORE people are increasingly comfortable with a more diverse market-place, and patronizing independent businesses, writers, and creators--more now, than ever before. The awareness is growing; the accessibility and the visibility is growing, all the time.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #147 on: October 21, 2021, 12:53:07 AM »
Greetings!

Who really cares about violence in RPG's? There is violence. So what? World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XIV, GTA, Call of Duty, Age of Empires, Dragon Age, The Witcher, and Skyrim are all about violence--non-stop, wherever you go and whatever you do. Some other games also have sex and whores in them too. No one gives a fuck about any of that.

The world is full of fucking, sex, depravity, blood and violence. Every fucking day. But somehow, someone somewhere is fucking *worried* about violence in TTRPG's like D&D? No one even skips a fucking beat about the constant sex, orgies, torture, death and blood in games like VAMPIRE and WEREWOLF.

Anyone that is worried about violence in TTRPG's can POUND IT IN THEIR FUCKING ASS as they snivel and sob like cunts. Fuck these morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Wait, this fucktard is worried about imaginary violence in an imaginary world against imaginary enemies?

That's even more retarded than worrying about such violence making you violent IRL!

Not only no one cares, if it has ANY effect in the real world I postulate it's one of catharsis, where you spend your violent drives against a safe imaginary foe instead of a real one. Much like the advocates of porn say it helps as an escape valve for the sexual energies thus preventing rape.

And seeing the huge difference in rape rates between western countries and the islamic ones I think they might be onto something!
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #148 on: October 21, 2021, 12:58:17 AM »
  • Don't kill orcs on sight, they might be innocent/good
  • Categorize speciesist, sexist, homophobic cultures as evil and their agents fair game
  • Paint men and women as martial equals in all respects
  • Attach shame to any killing of women, because of their history of oppression and vulnerability
  • Redefine language as violence and enforce "anti-violence" speech codes

Gotcha. So if I understand you correctly, you're proposing that a Woke takeover of the hobby would alter combat in RPGs so it always serves the Narrative? I think that's inevitable. Not only combat. Wokeists will instill their values in other aspects of the game: character creation, task resolution, how magic works, etc.

I've long predicted that the Ranger in 6E will no longer have Favored Enemy (emphasis mine):

Quote from:  5E SRD
Choose a type of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.

And yet D&D isn't Teh Hobby tm.

Who cares what Woketards of the Coast does with it's game? We've seen the writting on the wall long ago.

Baizuo will probably go bankrupt soon. Noone among the other woketard publishers have the chops to become numero uno.

If WotC goes full woke they will lose market share, because the woke are about 8% of the population in the USA and probably much less on other countries. And they don't buy the shit they say they want.

Ig D&D dies? The King is dead, long live the OSR!
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #149 on: October 21, 2021, 01:00:21 AM »
(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.);

What is "ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality..."? Maybe an example would help.

No offense, but you sound like the Architect in the Matrix movies. You're trying too hard. Keep it simple.



Edit: "The wokies want you to think of imaginary violence only in a way that reinforces woke ideology." Ok, that's more clear. Any examples?

  • Don't kill orcs on sight, they might be innocent/good
  • Categorize speciesist, sexist, homophobic cultures as evil and their agents fair game
  • Paint men and women as martial equals in all respects
  • Attach shame to any killing of women, because of their history of oppression and vulnerability
  • Redefine language as violence and enforce "anti-violence" speech codes

How exactly are they (and you their profet included) gonna make Pundit implement any of those in his games? And he's not the only one, you seem to operate under the impression that there's a single point where you can exert your woke pressure and it will work.

Don't get me wrong, it has worked (and will continue to work) on WotC, Baizuo, Evil Hat, etc. But none of those companies are "The Hobby tm".

Do you have any idea of how many independent publishers are there now? And more are added each day.

How the fuck do you and your comrades think you can make us implement your BS in our products?

Not even if you termites managed to force Drivethru to demand such things, not even then would you manage to force most of the independents to bend the knee to your cult.

You lot have been trying to control, and failing that, destroy the OSR for years. You have failed each and every time. And you will keep on failing, because you lack the fulcrum for your lever to work.

I predict you will fail always, and that if needed we'll make a fedeverse of independent stores so we can keep giving you the finger.

Greetings!

PREACH ON, HERMANO!!! ;D

To add to your commentary, I think the OSR is *GROWING*--and expanding and getting stronger every day. MORE people are increasingly comfortable with a more diverse market-place, and patronizing independent businesses, writers, and creators--more now, than ever before. The awareness is growing; the accessibility and the visibility is growing, all the time.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

LOL and just you wait if Woketards of the Coast does those changes to combat...

We'll see D&D sales drop like a lead balloon. And those players? The ones disgusted enough to drop D&D? Some will come to the dark side of the force... We have cookies!
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell