Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 01:20:22 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 09:29:32 PMAs I said, everything is propaganda.

Ah I know this game. True, everything is something that changes something else, which means that yes everything exists as a form of persuasion or propaganda.

But if a trait can be applied to everything all the time, it is useless as a descriptive trait. We don't prefise descriptors about material objects with 'Exists in the universe', because thats redundant and pointless.
So we reserve words for when something is MEANINGFUL. Is it MEANINGFUL propaganda? Is it a tier of propaganda significant enough to count as the specific persuasion as propaganda? Thats what we reserve the word for. To use it otherwise is a really shitty thing to do.

So Im not sure what your point is. Congratulations, you found an exploitable point in language. What next?

My point is that the wokies are changing RPGs to be their propaganda, making it difficult for the gamers who don't think in those terms. Are those holdout gamers doomed to be reactionaries saying "No, no" to wokery, or is there a self-conscious counterpropaganda that RPGs can become that will preserve the form while also positively opposing wokery?

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 02:27:38 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 01:20:22 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 09:29:32 PMAs I said, everything is propaganda.

Ah I know this game. True, everything is something that changes something else, which means that yes everything exists as a form of persuasion or propaganda.

But if a trait can be applied to everything all the time, it is useless as a descriptive trait. We don't prefise descriptors about material objects with 'Exists in the universe', because thats redundant and pointless.
So we reserve words for when something is MEANINGFUL. Is it MEANINGFUL propaganda? Is it a tier of propaganda significant enough to count as the specific persuasion as propaganda? Thats what we reserve the word for. To use it otherwise is a really shitty thing to do.

So Im not sure what your point is. Congratulations, you found an exploitable point in language. What next?

My point is that the wokies are changing RPGs to be their propaganda, making it difficult for the gamers who don't think in those terms. Are those holdout gamers doomed to be reactionaries saying "No, no" to wokery, or is there a self-conscious counterpropaganda that RPGs can become that will preserve the form while also positively opposing wokery?

To be a reactionary you need to be part of the establishment fighting against change.

Another red flag that YOU are a woke infiltrator. Only they think they are the revolution while holding the power.

We can't be reactionaries because we're not the establishment dumbass.

You woke termites are.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 02:27:38 PMMy point is that the wokies are changing RPGs to be their propaganda, making it difficult for the gamers who don't think in those terms. Are those holdout gamers doomed to be reactionaries saying "No, no" to wokery, or is there a self-conscious counterpropaganda that RPGs can become that will preserve the form while also positively opposing wokery?

.....Il be honest this really does come off as 'How do you do fellow non-wokies!'. But Il roll with you a while longer on the assumption your not a troll and arguing in good faith.

The solution is to teach people not to think in broken language terms. Don't use the word propaganda willy nilly because your devaluing it.

SJWs don't have nearly as much power as they think they do. They can subvert the edges, but for better or worse they cannot turn entertainment into pure propaganda because its generally un-entertaining.

And Im not sure how this relates to your larger point about violence.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 04:30:14 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 02:27:38 PMMy point is that the wokies are changing RPGs to be their propaganda, making it difficult for the gamers who don't think in those terms. Are those holdout gamers doomed to be reactionaries saying "No, no" to wokery, or is there a self-conscious counterpropaganda that RPGs can become that will preserve the form while also positively opposing wokery?

.....Il be honest this really does come off as 'How do you do fellow non-wokies!'. But Il roll with you a while longer on the assumption your not a troll and arguing in good faith.

The solution is to teach people not to think in broken language terms. Don't use the word propaganda willy nilly because your devaluing it.

SJWs don't have nearly as much power as they think they do. They can subvert the edges, but for better or worse they cannot turn entertainment into pure propaganda because its generally un-entertaining.

And Im not sure how this relates to your larger point about violence.

It doesn't, but he's trying to divert attention from his unsubstantiated claims.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 01:20:22 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 09:29:32 PMAs I said, everything is propaganda.

Ah I know this game. True, everything is something that changes something else, which means that yes everything exists as a form of persuasion or propaganda.

But if a trait can be applied to everything all the time, it is useless as a descriptive trait. We don't prefise descriptors about material objects with 'Exists in the universe', because thats redundant and pointless.
So we reserve words for when something is MEANINGFUL. Is it MEANINGFUL propaganda? Is it a tier of propaganda significant enough to count as the specific persuasion as propaganda? Thats what we reserve the word for. To use it otherwise is a really shitty thing to do.

So Im not sure what your point is. Congratulations, you found an exploitable point in language. What next?

"When everything is propaganda, nothing is." - Borrowed from The Incredibles

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 04:30:14 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 02:27:38 PMMy point is that the wokies are changing RPGs to be their propaganda, making it difficult for the gamers who don't think in those terms. Are those holdout gamers doomed to be reactionaries saying "No, no" to wokery, or is there a self-conscious counterpropaganda that RPGs can become that will preserve the form while also positively opposing wokery?

.....Il be honest this really does come off as 'How do you do fellow non-wokies!'. But Il roll with you a while longer on the assumption your not a troll and arguing in good faith.

The solution is to teach people not to think in broken language terms. Don't use the word propaganda willy nilly because your devaluing it.

SJWs don't have nearly as much power as they think they do. They can subvert the edges, but for better or worse they cannot turn entertainment into pure propaganda because its generally un-entertaining.

And Im not sure how this relates to your larger point about violence.

The other half of the equation is the concept of "parallel economies" that's gaining a lot of traction. You already see it with Brave/Brave.Search as an alternative to Chrome/Google, Gab vs. Twitter, Rumble vs. YouTube. If DriveThruRPG starts to go too far to the woke-side and cancels titles, an alternative will certainly pop up in short order just as it did with all of those above.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 04:30:14 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 02:27:38 PMMy point is that the wokies are changing RPGs to be their propaganda, making it difficult for the gamers who don't think in those terms. Are those holdout gamers doomed to be reactionaries saying "No, no" to wokery, or is there a self-conscious counterpropaganda that RPGs can become that will preserve the form while also positively opposing wokery?

.....Il be honest this really does come off as 'How do you do fellow non-wokies!'. But Il roll with you a while longer on the assumption your not a troll and arguing in good faith.

The solution is to teach people not to think in broken language terms. Don't use the word propaganda willy nilly because your devaluing it.

SJWs don't have nearly as much power as they think they do. They can subvert the edges, but for better or worse they cannot turn entertainment into pure propaganda because its generally un-entertaining.

And Im not sure how this relates to your larger point about violence.

How much power does the radical left have? I don't know, but, I'll bet there were plenty of people in Russia who thought this whole Bolshevism thing would blow over. As has been said, the ship of state is tethered to some kind of Cthulhu under the waters, and Cthulhu swims left.

There are layers of utility in these things. One purpose of pop culture is just to waste our time and fill our heads up with irrelevancies. We might call that the propaganda of political nullification. We might view it as harmless entertainment, whereas invested parties might view it as politically useful.

The violence aspect feels like a chink in the RPG armor, to me. It's tolerated only because it can't be gotten rid of without affecting profitability. But, it can be whittled down until the hobby becomes unrecognizable.

But, hey, everyone here thinks that there's "No problem" and that this is just chicken littling. Maybe it is. I hope it is, but, we'll see.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 08:45:40 PMHow much power does the radical left have?

I don't know, but, I'll bet there were plenty of people in Russia who thought this whole Bolshevism thing would blow over. As has been said, the ship of state is tethered to some kind of Cthulhu under the waters, and Cthulhu swims left.[/quote]


OK now this does sound less SJW-y, but just because its less SJW-sy it doesn't make what your saying exactly true:
SJW-ism is immensly unpopular the more working class you become, and this by and large includes the military. The bolshiviks where not popular with the elites and popular everywhere else. The radical left is the opposite case.

But again just like...lay out your point step by step about violence without going into tangents.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 18, 2021, 06:16:30 PM
No. This blend of woke is not ultimatly anti-combat.

Overall it is anti-combat. Mostly pushed by the storygamers who were at the forefront of the woke cult infiltration of gaming.

They have been pushing for more social rules and less combat for a long time now.

Also every iteration of these moral guardians has pushed for less combat, less violence, in all forms of media.

Quote from: Omega on October 20, 2021, 09:04:46 PMOverall it is anti-combat. Mostly pushed by the storygamers who were at the forefront of the woke cult infiltration of gaming.

Agreed, but so far SJWs have had the least amount of success actually directly intruding into the 'creature comforts' aspect of society. They paradoxically depend on the culture of blind mindless consumerism to eat their slop, but if the slop isn't stupidly entertaining enough their impact comes to a stop.

Thats why your local barnes & noble has had its comics section shrink down to nearly nothing and has been replaced with shelves of anime borderline hentai. Stuff like 'I reincarnated into a land of tits'.

They have success in destroying comics, but they still by and large can't make the majority of the population actually listen to them FOR the wokeness.

Quote from: Omega on October 20, 2021, 09:04:46 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 18, 2021, 06:16:30 PM
No. This blend of woke is not ultimatly anti-combat.

Overall it is anti-combat. Mostly pushed by the storygamers who were at the forefront of the woke cult infiltration of gaming.

They have been pushing for more social rules and less combat for a long time now.

Also every iteration of these moral guardians has pushed for less combat, less violence, in all forms of media.

Yeah, but this tends to be their weakest attack. The Marvel movies are wildly popular, and feature tons of shooting and beating people up.
Prudes like Jack Thompson and Anita Sarkeesian failed to put even a dent in video game combat. In a way, they sensationalized it.

Most people understand the difference between fictional violence and real life violence, and so the attempts to attack it in rpgs, tend to fall flat.
That doesn't mean they can't be successful and gain ground, but so far it's been a long-term losing tactic.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 08:49:59 PM
The bolshiviks where not popular with the elites and popular everywhere else.

No they weren't. They were never popular with the vast majority of Russians.

Quote

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 20, 2021, 08:49:59 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 08:45:40 PMHow much power does the radical left have?

I don't know, but, I'll bet there were plenty of people in Russia who thought this whole Bolshevism thing would blow over. As has been said, the ship of state is tethered to some kind of Cthulhu under the waters, and Cthulhu swims left.

OK now this does sound less SJW-y, but just because its less SJW-sy it doesn't make what your saying exactly true:
SJW-ism is immensly unpopular the more working class you become, and this by and large includes the military. The bolshiviks where not popular with the elites and popular everywhere else. The radical left is the opposite case.

But again just like...lay out your point step by step about violence without going into tangents.

The Bolsheviks believed the proletariat was the basis for revolution. The bulk of Russians in 1917 were not proletariats but peasants, so I am unsure how to square that circle.

Barring a political miracle, I'm fairly confident the military is going to be purged of anti-woke elements soon enough. Is this video for real, for example? Woke might not rule the military, yet, but, it's apparently ruling its recruitment strategy. Let's keep praying.

My point about violence and RPGs is that,

(1) to the degree one successfully immerses and visualizes oneself in the given imaginary world, one trains one's mind to think in terms of how violence in that world is portrayed, for the purposes of that world. This means thinking that violence is the go-to solution for most problems (again, find me RPG book covers that don't feature physical violence implicit or explicit), that the psychological costs are low to nonexistent, and above all, violence is good fun;

(2) The woke mob can't not recognize the violent content of RPGs as something to exploit. So, they infiltrate the hobby (cons, publishers, gaming groups, clubs) with their critical theory and moral browbeating, changing the underlying assumptions of gaming and the concomitant allowable expressions of gaming. Violence can't just be cheap drama, it must assume propagandistic meaning, where possible;

(3) Judging by the responses I've received here on this topic, there is no positive alternative to this apparently inexorable process of transition from neutral hobby to woke hobby, including ideological acceptable forms of imaginary violence (viz., compatible with intersectionality, feminism, queer theory, etc., etc.); and,

(4) I foresee that for all the gritty optimism about how "RPGnet is dying" etc., I still see, according to their own stats anyway, they have over 100,000 members and this place has under 9,000. And, of the ones who bothered to respond to this thread, half see no problem, while the other half slag the messenger. At the risk of being a Cassandra, I think this is naïve.

I wonder if part of it is that they believe that words are violence. Which in all honesty just makes me want to insult them and then smack them to see if they think are actually equal. Words can be harmful, words are very important; but words aren't violence.

Stories matter. Yes, our games maybe mostly words and stories, but stories are important. History is supposedly true stories, but Aesop's Fables, the Brother's Grim,  a lot of mythology and religion are all stories meant to teach. We get invested in stories; why else do TV shows, comics, movies, etc. become so important to people. We become invested in them and they matter to us.

Words matter. Unless I am somehow severely disabled and everybody else has some secret form of communication the vast majority of our communication is done with words. That SJWs and other Social Activists purposefully degrade our ability to communicate by deciding that a word means something else and that, in my opinion, is a Crime against Humanity. It is hard enough communicating with each other without people actively trying to make it more difficult.

After all, if words don't matter then:
"We find these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"
"I have a dream... I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."
"That's one small step for man, One Giant Leap for Mankind."
Don't matter.

The biggest problem is that the faces and "leaders" of the SJWs are picked for by the media to garner attention and clicks. I think as time goes on Activists separate from their communities, stop representing them and end up just pursing various types of power.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 20, 2021, 10:27:57 PMBarring a political miracle, I'm fairly confident the military is going to be purged of anti-woke elements soon enough.

The difference between the bolshevics and the SJWs is that the bolsheviks had balls. The SJWs do not.
My family is ex-soviet union, so they very much see the same tactics employed by the commies employed here.

But SJW-ism is such a tier of self destructive and weak it depends way moreso on the complicity of the ruling class in place of their own strength. I see the long-term end result of the SJW plague as a complete economic and social collapse in place of a commie take-over.

They can purge the military of the non-woke....But they will purge it of anybody compitent or capable or charismatic in a military sense. That video is real, but thats more to show that other countries will actually have a shot at taking over the USA after a SJW takover in place of an argument for SJW strength.

The USA military top brass is EXTREMLY insulated and out of touch. And had just had one of the most humiliating defeats in its history (again). Nobody will follow these commanders to shoot their own. Its like if the Tsar was woke and insisted his soldiers march into WWI with high-heels. You fucking bet those soldiers would not follow the bolsheviks.

Quote(4) I foresee that for all the gritty optimism about how "RPGnet is dying" etc., I still see, according to their own stats anyway, they have over 100,000 members and this place has under 9,000. And, of the ones who bothered to respond to this thread, half see no problem, while the other half slag the messenger. At the risk of being a Cassandra, I think this is naïve.

Mathematically thats pretty innacurate because your talking about a much larger website that retains a log of previous membership.

Again I see destruction moreso likely then subversion. Because this blend of SJW-ism is purely destructive. SJW-ism really struggles against creature comforts because it depends on the consumer culture to not resist it very well.

SJW-ism will fail to ban porn for instance. SJW-ism is thriving because of lack of conviction of the current elite and much of the population, not because its so strong or popular by itself.