Greetings!

Well, look at the silver lining in the cloud, so to speak. If RPG's encourage and instill gamers to enjoy violence--then, well, that might mean that more savage gangs of violent gamers will hunt down Liberal SJW Marxists and crush their fucking heads in with lead pipes, heh?

That would be so terrible, after all.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM

Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

I'm sure they can. Most sports and games teach competition and co-operation.
I don't think they train people to be a certain way, which was your original claim.

Quote

Quote

QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Are you intentionally arguing in bad faith? Do I have to explain the history of Nazi Germany to you? Do you understand the context in which Nazi iconography exists?

Yes, yes he is.

Do you have a squirrel in your jacket pocket?  Because I don't know who this "we" is that might see the end of combat, but I know it ain't me and the people in my games. 

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM

Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

I'm sure they can. Most sports and games teach competition and co-operation.
I don't think they train people to be a certain way, which was your original claim.

If games can teach competition and cooperation, why can't they teach that violence is fun, free of psychological consequence, and a way to solve problems?

Quote

Quote

Quote

QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Are you intentionally arguing in bad faith? Do I have to explain the history of Nazi Germany to you? Do you understand the context in which Nazi iconography exists?

The type of people who would be offended by swastikas on children's toys are probably going to be offended by anyone wearing a swastika, regardless of context, especially not when it's being done for fun, like in an historical reenactment.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 06:30:54 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM

Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

I'm sure they can. Most sports and games teach competition and co-operation.
I don't think they train people to be a certain way, which was your original claim.

Quote

Quote

QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Are you intentionally arguing in bad faith? Do I have to explain the history of Nazi Germany to you? Do you understand the context in which Nazi iconography exists?

Yes, yes he is.

I'm starting to think so. It's tiresome to drag this out, not knowing if it's an intentional troll, a stubborn arguer, or someone who really thinks what they're posting.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:39:19 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 06:30:54 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM

Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

I'm sure they can. Most sports and games teach competition and co-operation.
I don't think they train people to be a certain way, which was your original claim.

Quote

Quote

QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Are you intentionally arguing in bad faith? Do I have to explain the history of Nazi Germany to you? Do you understand the context in which Nazi iconography exists?

Yes, yes he is.

I'm starting to think so. It's tiresome to drag this out, not knowing if it's an intentional troll, a stubborn arguer, or someone who really thinks what they're posting.

Oh, I'm sure he believes the woke gospel, he's arguing in bad faith because he keeps ignoring obvious stuff, like "why children toys don't have swastikas?" Because they would lose sales dumbfuck! while claiming that his conclusion is axiomatic because he says so.

Show me the IRL consecuences of violent video games, show me where has the overall violence increased since the advent of video games.

IDGAF about what someone might think, because I can't read their mind and because thought=/=action.

So unless he and jhkim can show me that evidence I'll keep telling them to go preach that to a feminist forum, while praising Anita Sarkesian. (when I'm being polite) Or something worst when they manage to make me lose my composture.

violent games could cause X, really? does he have ANY evidence?

He's just a woke infiltrator pretending to be one of the normal people. He needs to provide proof or shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:38:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM

Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

I'm sure they can. Most sports and games teach competition and co-operation.
I don't think they train people to be a certain way, which was your original claim.

If games can teach competition and cooperation, why can't they teach that violence is fun, free of psychological consequence, and a way to solve problems?

I never claimed they couldn't. I asserted that, as they exist now, they don't. And others have pointed out that there is copious evidence to support this. While you have provided nothing but assertations.

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Are you intentionally arguing in bad faith? Do I have to explain the history of Nazi Germany to you? Do you understand the context in which Nazi iconography exists?

The type of people who would be offended by swastikas on children's toys are probably going to be offended by anyone wearing a swastika, regardless of context, especially not when it's being done for fun, like in an historical reenactment.

Yes. That doesn't change the context of children versus adults and whether they understand the iconography in a historical sense.

Jesus christ, stop building that pyramid any taller, or GeekyBugle will sacrifice somebody on top of it for the gods.

Quote from: Nephil on October 19, 2021, 06:57:35 PM
Jesus christ, stop building that pyramid any taller, or GeekyBugle will sacrifice somebody on top of it for the gods.

LOL no, those were the aztecs, my people were more civilized we just throwed them into the cenotes

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:46:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:38:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:24:11 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 06:11:58 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:31:58 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 04:19:07 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 03:22:34 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 03:10:30 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:43:12 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 02:30:37 PM

Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

You're confusing thinking with doing. I didn't say that gamers commit more violence, only that they are trained to think violence is a good way to solve problems, that it's free of psychic consequence, and that it's fun.

Do you enjoy action movies? Then you must think that violence is fun to watch, mustn't you? Pretend violence, at least, but including pretend violence that can be as bloody and realistic as possible.

I wonder if the wokies will eventually cotton onto this aspect as well, in their drive to reengineer society, and insist that pretend violence is still too violent to tolerate. I recall one case in the US where children at recess in the playground in winter were forbidden to throw snowballs because it is viewed as aggressive. If snowball fights can get woked to death, so can other "violent" games.

They already have. That was a major push by Anita Sarkeesian in her feminist critiques of video games. Extra Credits did a video, roundly mocked here, on how portraying Nazis in video games was problematic for that reason. Portrayal of Nazis maybe sorta without evidence trained people to accept Nazi-ism on some level.

Of course they do. Depicting swastikas in entertainment includes them under the rubric of "fun things". We don't put swastikas on children's toys, do we? Why not? Because it trains the child to think of swastikas as fun.

Again, I disagree. We don't put Nazi iconography on children's toys because they're offensive, not because children would associate swastikas with "fun".
Adult historical re-enactors often use period appropriate iconography. While I'm sure there's some few out there, the vast majority do not seem to start thinking that Nazi-ism in "real life" is somehow appropriate.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6096177/So-DOES-make-grown-man-want-dress-Nazi-weekends.html

Historical reenactors only reluctantly don a German uniform containing a swastika? It detracts from the fun of reenacting but they do it anyway? Why aren't swastikas on such uniforms considered offensive, then?

They were considered offensive by some people. That was the reason for the article. And they "do it anyway" out of a sense of historical accuracy. Historical re-enactors tend to value that...

And none of this has established that D&D combat, or other kinds of entertainment "train" people to think in a certain way.

Competitive sports and games don't train people to think competitively? Think about what you're saying!

People already think competitvely. Sports and games channels that into constructive, social pursuits.

Perhaps, but, are you claiming that competitiveness cannot be learned, encouraged, and enhanced? Or similarly one can't learn to be cooperative rather than competitive?

I'm sure they can. Most sports and games teach competition and co-operation.
I don't think they train people to be a certain way, which was your original claim.

If games can teach competition and cooperation, why can't they teach that violence is fun, free of psychological consequence, and a way to solve problems?

I never claimed they couldn't. I asserted that, as they exist now, they don't. And others have pointed out that there is copious evidence to support this. While you have provided nothing but assertations.

If chess can teach competition, what would RPGs have to be like to teach that violence is fun, free of psychological consequence, and a way to solve problems?

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QuoteAnd, the contention was that we don't put swastikas on children's toys because it is offensive to some people. Yet grown-ups put them on during some historical reenactments, even though they're offensive to some people. The former is badwrongfun, but the latter is goodrightfun?

Children lack the intellectual and emotional maturity to make informed decisions and have mature attitudes towards things like Nazi iconography.

They lack the emotional maturity to play dress-up?

Are you intentionally arguing in bad faith? Do I have to explain the history of Nazi Germany to you? Do you understand the context in which Nazi iconography exists?

The type of people who would be offended by swastikas on children's toys are probably going to be offended by anyone wearing a swastika, regardless of context, especially not when it's being done for fun, like in an historical reenactment.

Yes. That doesn't change the context of children versus adults and whether they understand the iconography in a historical sense.

I think that argument is absurd. Any six-year-old can be taught who the bad guys were.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 07:04:05 PM

Quote from: Nephil on October 19, 2021, 06:57:35 PM
Jesus christ, stop building that pyramid any taller, or GeekyBugle will sacrifice somebody on top of it for the gods.

LOL no, those were the aztecs, my people were more civilized we just throwed them into the cenotes

Greetings!

Hermano! How many SJW's can fit onto the Temple of the Sun down there in Mexico City? The Temple of the Sun and Moon? Get that bad boy working again! "Blood For the Blood God!"

You know he's an SJW infiltrator! It's funny how we can just tell by their words, and how much jello drips off of everything they say! Bring the THUNDER my friend!

Gotta love Khorne! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 07:38:20 PM

If chess can teach competition, what would RPGs have to be like to teach that violence is fun, free of psychological consequence, and a way to solve problems?

Chess doesn't teach competition dumbass, chess attracts competitive people, it teaches them sporsmanship, tactics and thinking ahead of your oponent.

Just like violent people are drawn to violent sports like MMA.

But you're just a woke infiltrator talking bullshit to see how many can you get to buy into your woke BS.

So far you got one of the creative quoting club on your side, kinda, sorta. (BTW you're also on that club)

And some people that think you're arguing in good faith trying to have a reasonable conversation with you. But they lack the experience debating disingenuous twats I have, been doing it since the woke infiltration of Atheism by the Atheism+ assholes.

Can you prove ANY TTRPG has caused gamers to become violent? IRL? Nope, you can't because we can distinguish between fantasy and reality.

Keep runing you coward cunt.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Quote from: SHARK on October 19, 2021, 07:42:59 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 07:04:05 PM

Quote from: Nephil on October 19, 2021, 06:57:35 PM
Jesus christ, stop building that pyramid any taller, or GeekyBugle will sacrifice somebody on top of it for the gods.

LOL no, those were the aztecs, my people were more civilized we just throwed them into the cenotes

Greetings!

Hermano! How many SJW's can fit onto the Temple of the Sun down there in Mexico City? The Temple of the Sun and Moon? Get that bad boy working again! "Blood For the Blood God!"

You know he's an SJW infiltrator! It's funny how we can just tell by their words, and how much jello drips off of everything they say! Bring the THUNDER my friend!

Gotta love Khorne! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I fear that would be cultural appropriation

But I'm sure we could get some descendant from the aztecs to do so, almost all mexicans hate the woke with the passion of a thousand suns.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 04:17:05 PMIt's axiomatic. What you participate in trains you. Everything is propaganda for something.

So playing TTRPG trains you to roll dice and name spells or maneuvers as a way of resolving combat. That doesn't seem like something that translates well to the real world.

From games training players to roll dice to resolve in game conflict, you jump to the conclusion that rolling dice translates to hitting or shooting people in the real world. A conclusion wholly unsupported by your "axiom." 

If you really believed what you are saying, you'd be all up in arms over people tossing dice playing Yahtzee and Bunko. Those games foster, that dreaded competition along with gambling, drinking, and random chaos.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 06:38:11 PM
If games can teach competition and cooperation, why can't they teach that violence is fun, free of psychological consequence, and a way to solve problems?

Tabletop RPGs and sports are implemented by living people, which limits the unintentional lessons that can come from them. Soccer coaches *intend* to teach both competition and cooperation - and they openly say this to parents and to players. The players willingly participate in this. It's a very different claim to say that unintended lessons are taught or instilled simply via fictional content.

It's conceivable that there could be such an effect, but psychological studies have not shown it. I documented a bunch of studies on tabletop RPGs years ago - the links are here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/whatis/psychology.html

None of them document any significant negative effects for RPG players as a whole. That said, I will grant a few things:

(1) Games can potentially promote negative behavior, but they can also promote positive behavior.
(2) Negative effects are most proven in the case of gambling, which has been shown to be addictive.
(3) Randomized rewards are a key part of motivation in game play.
(4) In the case of video games, the psychological studies are mixed about whether there is any change in aggression or desensitization. Some studies show a correlation, others do not.
(5) Even if there were a clear effect in video games, that doesn't inherently apply to other games like board games, card games, or tabletop RPGs.

You are implying that the fictional content inherently teaches what is done in the game. But that depends both there being real-world reinforcement, and also on ​how closely the fictional action maps to the real activity. It seems doubtful that playing Pacman promotes over-eating, because moving a joystick is nothing like eating. Likewise, rolling d20's is nothing like actually killing people.