Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.

I guess that's a yes. Play mind games with someone else.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.

Here's the part where Geeky accuses the other person of doing exactly what he's doing.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:26:53 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.

I guess that's a yes. Play mind games with someone else.

Geeky has certain inherent limits in communication that he can't overcome, and he's happy to use them as an excuse anytime it suits him. It's just part of his game.

Are we talking about combat or conflict? The two are not necessarily synonymous.

Conflict resolution -- whether it's swordfighting, successful economic machinations, or mining a stubborn rock face -- is kind of at the core of games. You have X dilemma; how do you solve it?

Now, not every game is necessarily steeped in combat -- Exalted and L5R incorporated social conflicts that could be just as dangerous (although the Mike Tyson adage about 'everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face' kind of applies there). But physical combat is kind of a staple of the RPG genre, ranging widely in severity.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:26:53 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.

I guess that's a yes. Play mind games with someone else.

So you choose pretending to be offended to try and avoid providing evidence for your assertions...

Not very smart of you.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 19, 2021, 10:35:29 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.

Here's the part where Geeky accuses the other person of doing exactly what he's doing.

You're an imbecile

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:24:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

Lets try this again, here's the full answer from where you're clipping that. Lets see if you answering to that is in good faith or if you're just trying to deviate attention from your unsubstantiated assertions shall we?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 09:15:06 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 07:39:50 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
This business of politicizing gaming in the southpaw direction, such that all monsters must be individuals capable of free will and, so, of any alignment, has implications beyond just erasing the trope of irredeemably evil races. It also attacks the central pillar of virtually all RPGs, which is combat.

Combat is the central pillar of virtually all RPGs? Says who? Where's the evidence to back this up?

Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big combat section. I have yet to find one that doesn't. Care to submit some?

Nice try, nope, combat is an important part of the game but not (and I quote) "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm" Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big magic section. I have yet to find one that doesn't. Care to sunmit one?

I'm of course mocking you, by your argument lots of things could be "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm"

Millennium's End

Top Secret

Traveller

Aftermath

Twilight: 2000

Robotech

I'm sure there are more. So, I've answered your question, will you answer mine: can you name any RPG that doesn't feature a chapter dedicated to combat?

So you answered to me mocking you...

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

Bolding mine. Care to provide evidence for this extraordinary claim? Remember that extraordinary clai9ms require extraordinary evidence. I want to see a longitudinal study spawning several countries and years with ACTUAL gamers that proves this assertion, so far the only such study (about video games mind you) says you're talking BS.

What RPGs do you know of that don't have a large combat section? What psychic consequences are there for characters in D&D combat? What players of RPGs include combat while holding their nose? If it's not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

What RPGs do you know about that don't have a large magic section? What spiritual consecuences are there for characters on D&D for dabling in magic? What players of RPGs include magic while holding their nose? If it's not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

See above. No, not much in the way of spiritual consequences for magic, either. And what is magic commonly for in D&D?—fighting monsters with sleep spells, magic missiles, fireballs, etc. Find me an RPG cover featuring magic that isn't used for a combat. The message is that magic isn't psychologically dangerous, it's just fun. Magical combat is fun. Magical violence is fun. So, please answer my questions: What RPGs lack a chapter on combat, and supply realistic psychic consequences for combat?

What for? You backtrack about you speaking about characters and revert to the players, next you'll do it the other way around. Provide scientific evidence that RPGs train real people to solve things by using violence IRL.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteFirst of all you were talking about "Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" Not PCs.

Yes, that's right. It does train people to think that way, even if other things (such as personal experience) train them otherwise. The game's characters don't necessarily find violence fun, but the players certainly do find portrayals of violence fun or they'd eschew such violence in their games. And, this violence is free of psychic consequences for the characters and is often portrayed as the most thrilling, easiest, or inevitable option for resolving conflicts.

See? You're back to the Thompson/Sarkesian argument which has been proven false:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

So if YOU are asserting that TTRPGs are different and they do what you claim it falls on you to prove your assertion not on me to prove it flase.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteSecond what if it's fun? Does Minecraft train you to be an architect that builds with big cubes of diamond?

How realistically portrayed is Minecraft?

How realistically do I portray a TTRPG in my head? This has shit to do with your argument, it's just you trying to change the discussion to a different topic, provide scientific evidence of your claim that TTRPGs make people solve things with violence or shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Could this "woke" business therefore be the harbinger of the end of combat as cheap drama? Must all games then be sensitive to just how powerful getting into a fight is, with its ugly consequences of trauma, confusion, and murder, and, so, knock down this central pillar? If so, what will hold up the roof?

Remove the scare quotes, it is woke cultists promoting this changes.

Bolding mine. What!? Can you differentiate between make believe and reality? No one gets PTSD from RPG combat, because the only real individuals involved are humans in the real world, and if YOU want to role play such things in YOUR table by all means feel free to do so. But leave us out of your feverish dreams.

I'm referring to characters, not players. And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes everything that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.

"Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" No you weren't, you were talking about people, after all who has fun with an RPG? Or do you often play inception type games where the PC's are playing an RPG?

In my third paragraph I'm referring to characters being realistically affected by violence, not players. (But, isn't the point of roleplaying trying to get inside the head of your character?) And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes much, if not everything, that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.

And now you're back to claiming you were talking about PCs, who cares what you think PCs are trained for in the game world? It has exactly zero effect on the real world.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteYour argument is the same as the ones made by Jack Thompson and Anita Sarkesian. "Games teach people to... "

Please do provide scientific evidence of your assertion.

Scientific evidence for what? That if you eat sweets while watching a public execution you'll be reinforcing sweets=beheading=fun in your mind? I think you're spirited but you're not clueless. I think that is what the wokies are going to do, is use my argument to shred gaming as we know it. See if they don't.

Nice false equivalence, real world with real people vs game world with game believe "people". By your logic it should also train people to solve things with magic, like in curing/travelling by magic. But that's BS just like your claim that TTRPGs make players violent.

That TTRPGs make players start solving things with violence.

In case you want to pretend you didn't see the link I'll provide it again here:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

And in case you don't want to click there here's the study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Now prove them wrong or shut the fuck up. You claim you're worried about the wokies, YOU'RE here doing their work by claiming that TTRPGs make players violent.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:26:53 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.

I guess that's a yes. Play mind games with someone else.

Why do you insist on cutting parts of the conversation?

So imbeciles like HappyDerp can appalud you because he's mad at me?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:24:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

Lets try this again, here's the full answer from where you're clipping that. Lets see if you answering to that is in good faith or if you're just trying to deviate attention from your unsubstantiated assertions shall we?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 09:15:06 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 07:39:50 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
This business of politicizing gaming in the southpaw direction, such that all monsters must be individuals capable of free will and, so, of any alignment, has implications beyond just erasing the trope of irredeemably evil races. It also attacks the central pillar of virtually all RPGs, which is combat.

Combat is the central pillar of virtually all RPGs? Says who? Where's the evidence to back this up?

Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big combat section. I have yet to find one that doesn't. Care to submit some?

Nice try, nope, combat is an important part of the game but not (and I quote) "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm" Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big magic section. I have yet to find one that doesn't. Care to sunmit one?

I'm of course mocking you, by your argument lots of things could be "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm"

Millennium's End

Top Secret

Traveller

Aftermath

Twilight: 2000

Robotech

I'm sure there are more. So, I've answered your question, will you answer mine: can you name any RPG that doesn't feature a chapter dedicated to combat?

So you answered to me mocking you...

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

Bolding mine. Care to provide evidence for this extraordinary claim? Remember that extraordinary clai9ms require extraordinary evidence. I want to see a longitudinal study spawning several countries and years with ACTUAL gamers that proves this assertion, so far the only such study (about video games mind you) says you're talking BS.

What RPGs do you know of that don't have a large combat section? What psychic consequences are there for characters in D&D combat? What players of RPGs include combat while holding their nose? If it's not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

What RPGs do you know about that don't have a large magic section? What spiritual consecuences are there for characters on D&D for dabling in magic? What players of RPGs include magic while holding their nose? If it's not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

See above. No, not much in the way of spiritual consequences for magic, either. And what is magic commonly for in D&D?—fighting monsters with sleep spells, magic missiles, fireballs, etc. Find me an RPG cover featuring magic that isn't used for a combat. The message is that magic isn't psychologically dangerous, it's just fun. Magical combat is fun. Magical violence is fun. So, please answer my questions: What RPGs lack a chapter on combat, and supply realistic psychic consequences for combat?

What for? You backtrack about you speaking about characters and revert to the players, next you'll do it the other way around. Provide scientific evidence that RPGs train real people to solve things by using violence IRL.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteFirst of all you were talking about "Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" Not PCs.

Yes, that's right. It does train people to think that way, even if other things (such as personal experience) train them otherwise. The game's characters don't necessarily find violence fun, but the players certainly do find portrayals of violence fun or they'd eschew such violence in their games. And, this violence is free of psychic consequences for the characters and is often portrayed as the most thrilling, easiest, or inevitable option for resolving conflicts.

See? You're back to the Thompson/Sarkesian argument which has been proven false:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

So if YOU are asserting that TTRPGs are different and they do what you claim it falls on you to prove your assertion not on me to prove it flase.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteSecond what if it's fun? Does Minecraft train you to be an architect that builds with big cubes of diamond?

How realistically portrayed is Minecraft?

How realistically do I portray a TTRPG in my head? This has shit to do with your argument, it's just you trying to change the discussion to a different topic, provide scientific evidence of your claim that TTRPGs make people solve things with violence or shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

Quote

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Could this "woke" business therefore be the harbinger of the end of combat as cheap drama? Must all games then be sensitive to just how powerful getting into a fight is, with its ugly consequences of trauma, confusion, and murder, and, so, knock down this central pillar? If so, what will hold up the roof?

Remove the scare quotes, it is woke cultists promoting this changes.

Bolding mine. What!? Can you differentiate between make believe and reality? No one gets PTSD from RPG combat, because the only real individuals involved are humans in the real world, and if YOU want to role play such things in YOUR table by all means feel free to do so. But leave us out of your feverish dreams.

I'm referring to characters, not players. And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes everything that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.

"Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" No you weren't, you were talking about people, after all who has fun with an RPG? Or do you often play inception type games where the PC's are playing an RPG?

In my third paragraph I'm referring to characters being realistically affected by violence, not players. (But, isn't the point of roleplaying trying to get inside the head of your character?) And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes much, if not everything, that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.

And now you're back to claiming you were talking about PCs, who cares what you think PCs are trained for in the game world? It has exactly zero effect on the real world.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteYour argument is the same as the ones made by Jack Thompson and Anita Sarkesian. "Games teach people to... "

Please do provide scientific evidence of your assertion.

Scientific evidence for what? That if you eat sweets while watching a public execution you'll be reinforcing sweets=beheading=fun in your mind? I think you're spirited but you're not clueless. I think that is what the wokies are going to do, is use my argument to shred gaming as we know it. See if they don't.

Nice false equivalence, real world with real people vs game world with game believe "people". By your logic it should also train people to solve things with magic, like in curing/travelling by magic. But that's BS just like your claim that TTRPGs make players violent.

That TTRPGs make players start solving things with violence.

In case you want to pretend you didn't see the link I'll provide it again here:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

And in case you don't want to click there here's the study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Now prove them wrong or shut the fuck up. You claim you're worried about the wokies, YOU'RE here doing their work by claiming that TTRPGs make players violent.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:49:42 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:26:53 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.

I guess that's a yes. Play mind games with someone else.

Why do you insist on cutting parts of the conversation?

So imbeciles like HappyDerp can appalud you because he's mad at me?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:24:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

Lets try this again, here's the full answer from where you're clipping that. Lets see if you answering to that is in good faith or if you're just trying to deviate attention from your unsubstantiated assertions shall we?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 11:07:51 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 09:15:06 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2021, 07:39:50 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
This business of politicizing gaming in the southpaw direction, such that all monsters must be individuals capable of free will and, so, of any alignment, has implications beyond just erasing the trope of irredeemably evil races. It also attacks the central pillar of virtually all RPGs, which is combat.

Combat is the central pillar of virtually all RPGs? Says who? Where's the evidence to back this up?

Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big combat section. I have yet to find one that doesn't. Care to submit some?

Nice try, nope, combat is an important part of the game but not (and I quote) "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm" Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big magic section. I have yet to find one that doesn't. Care to sunmit one?

I'm of course mocking you, by your argument lots of things could be "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm"

Millennium's End

Top Secret

Traveller

Aftermath

Twilight: 2000

Robotech

I'm sure there are more. So, I've answered your question, will you answer mine: can you name any RPG that doesn't feature a chapter dedicated to combat?

So you answered to me mocking you...

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

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Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 08:59:06 PM

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Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

Bolding mine. Care to provide evidence for this extraordinary claim? Remember that extraordinary clai9ms require extraordinary evidence. I want to see a longitudinal study spawning several countries and years with ACTUAL gamers that proves this assertion, so far the only such study (about video games mind you) says you're talking BS.

What RPGs do you know of that don't have a large combat section? What psychic consequences are there for characters in D&D combat? What players of RPGs include combat while holding their nose? If it's not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

What RPGs do you know about that don't have a large magic section? What spiritual consecuences are there for characters on D&D for dabling in magic? What players of RPGs include magic while holding their nose? If it's not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

See above. No, not much in the way of spiritual consequences for magic, either. And what is magic commonly for in D&D?—fighting monsters with sleep spells, magic missiles, fireballs, etc. Find me an RPG cover featuring magic that isn't used for a combat. The message is that magic isn't psychologically dangerous, it's just fun. Magical combat is fun. Magical violence is fun. So, please answer my questions: What RPGs lack a chapter on combat, and supply realistic psychic consequences for combat?

What for? You backtrack about you speaking about characters and revert to the players, next you'll do it the other way around. Provide scientific evidence that RPGs train real people to solve things by using violence IRL.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteFirst of all you were talking about "Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" Not PCs.

Yes, that's right. It does train people to think that way, even if other things (such as personal experience) train them otherwise. The game's characters don't necessarily find violence fun, but the players certainly do find portrayals of violence fun or they'd eschew such violence in their games. And, this violence is free of psychic consequences for the characters and is often portrayed as the most thrilling, easiest, or inevitable option for resolving conflicts.

See? You're back to the Thompson/Sarkesian argument which has been proven false:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

So if YOU are asserting that TTRPGs are different and they do what you claim it falls on you to prove your assertion not on me to prove it flase.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteSecond what if it's fun? Does Minecraft train you to be an architect that builds with big cubes of diamond?

How realistically portrayed is Minecraft?

How realistically do I portray a TTRPG in my head? This has shit to do with your argument, it's just you trying to change the discussion to a different topic, provide scientific evidence of your claim that TTRPGs make people solve things with violence or shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

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Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Could this "woke" business therefore be the harbinger of the end of combat as cheap drama? Must all games then be sensitive to just how powerful getting into a fight is, with its ugly consequences of trauma, confusion, and murder, and, so, knock down this central pillar? If so, what will hold up the roof?

Remove the scare quotes, it is woke cultists promoting this changes.

Bolding mine. What!? Can you differentiate between make believe and reality? No one gets PTSD from RPG combat, because the only real individuals involved are humans in the real world, and if YOU want to role play such things in YOUR table by all means feel free to do so. But leave us out of your feverish dreams.

I'm referring to characters, not players. And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes everything that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.

"Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" No you weren't, you were talking about people, after all who has fun with an RPG? Or do you often play inception type games where the PC's are playing an RPG?

In my third paragraph I'm referring to characters being realistically affected by violence, not players. (But, isn't the point of roleplaying trying to get inside the head of your character?) And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes much, if not everything, that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.

And now you're back to claiming you were talking about PCs, who cares what you think PCs are trained for in the game world? It has exactly zero effect on the real world.

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 10:35:42 PM

QuoteYour argument is the same as the ones made by Jack Thompson and Anita Sarkesian. "Games teach people to... "

Please do provide scientific evidence of your assertion.

Scientific evidence for what? That if you eat sweets while watching a public execution you'll be reinforcing sweets=beheading=fun in your mind? I think you're spirited but you're not clueless. I think that is what the wokies are going to do, is use my argument to shred gaming as we know it. See if they don't.

Nice false equivalence, real world with real people vs game world with game believe "people". By your logic it should also train people to solve things with magic, like in curing/travelling by magic. But that's BS just like your claim that TTRPGs make players violent.

That TTRPGs make players start solving things with violence.

In case you want to pretend you didn't see the link I'll provide it again here:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

And in case you don't want to click there here's the study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Now prove them wrong or shut the fuck up. You claim you're worried about the wokies, YOU'RE here doing their work by claiming that TTRPGs make players violent.

I'm not mad, nor am I applauding anyone. I'm just pointing out your regular bad behavior and your total inability to act any other way.

Stop talking to the retard, Geeky.  You know better.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2021, 11:49:15 AM
Stop talking to the retard, Geeky.  You know better.

I 'm not going to stop talking to Geeky even if you call him a retard.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2021, 11:49:15 AM
Stop talking to the retard, Geeky.  You know better.

Yep, it was a lapsus brutus, will try not to relapse.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2021, 10:09:19 PMI think it's pretty weird that combat is typically the most detailed part of RPG rules, but there are never similarly complicated rules for non-violent conflict resolution (e.g. the much maligned social combat, mental combat, etc).

I've yet to see a version of either that made the game run smoother or make it more entertaining.  For me they slow things down and turn "roleplaying" into "gaming the system," take me out of the game, and ruin my sense of immersion.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy on October 19, 2021, 12:35:11 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2021, 10:09:19 PMI think it's pretty weird that combat is typically the most detailed part of RPG rules, but there are never similarly complicated rules for non-violent conflict resolution (e.g. the much maligned social combat, mental combat, etc).

I've yet to see a version of either that made the game run smoother or make it more entertaining.  For me they slow things down and turn "roleplaying" into "gaming the system," take me out of the game, and ruin my sense of immersion.

Combat in RPGs, especially D&D, is the one activity where everyone gets a deliniated turn to act, can contribute to the goal in an incremental way, and has the most direct input and consequenses on their character's choices.

Skill Challenges from 4e was an attempt to make a similar structure for non-combat tasks, but I think it failed because it tried to "combat-ify" the process. The skill check replaced attack rolls, and success and failure tracking replaced hit points. The structure was both too rigid and too vague to accomadate all of the types of tasks possible.

I think the reason combat usually gets the most rules coverage is because it's easier to make rules for it. Non-combat is like a grab bag of "everything else that happens that the characters can do".

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

Quote from: Bren on October 19, 2021, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 09:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on October 18, 2021, 07:11:17 PM

Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on October 18, 2021, 06:05:53 PM
Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I utterly disagree with this conclusion.

Well, perhaps you'd like to expand on your disagreement.

Well I'll take a stab at it. Your claim lacks even the tiniest shred of evidence. Disagreeing with unsupported and patently silly conclusions requires no further elaboration.

That which is be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence too.