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Author Topic: Are we seeing the end of combat?  (Read 15819 times)

Shasarak

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2021, 12:18:45 AM »
The old Roman philosopher Vegetius said, "Those who desire peace, should prepare for war". In all the world, many peoples and many nations possessed many different talents and skills. The Romans however, built their great empire by a constant mastery of war.

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That reminds me of what Jordan Peterson said about the mistranslation of the word "meek".  In the original Greek it meant “strength under control.”
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Kyle Aaron

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2021, 12:25:31 AM »
Could this "woke" business therefore be the harbinger of the end of combat as cheap drama?
Not really.

In the real world people are all human and they have no alignments intrinsic to them, suffer psychological effects from being exposed to or participating in violence, and so on - and they still run around stabbing and shooting each-other, there are still wars and all that.

If the fact that Bob has a mum and family he loves does not stop Charlie popping him with a 7.62mm from 880 metres, I don't see why anyone should care about stabbing an orc - even if the orc loves his mum, too.
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jhkim

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2021, 12:37:36 AM »
Who wants to play in a campaign where everyone is expected to be a sniveling, soy-filled pussy? Talk, and beg, and get on your knees. That's what women do--and weak pussies. Men, true men, are warriors in spirit, and always ready for violence. ;D

Ah, yes.



True manly men prove their manliness by great shows of dice rolling.  ::)

I enjoy violence in games, but I also enjoy intrigue, dialog, and other non-violent material in games. And yeah, I'm an Korean-American who's eaten soy his whole life. It's delicious and nutritious, and has been a staple of our diet for centuries.

S'mon

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2021, 03:16:52 AM »
Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I think you could make that criticism - if it is a criticism - even more about videogame combat, or film and TV combat. It's pretty well ubiquitous in popular fiction. Except the 'any combat results in PTSD' type fiction, which is no more realistic than 'overnight rest heals all wounds'. :)

I don't get the impression that fictional & RPG combat trains people to see violence as a solution IRL; I think our brains easily distinguish the two. I do think media can often act as propaganda to dehumanise 'the enemy', which is a different issue.

WoTC went through a phase of "It's Always Demon Cultists" which was a sort of solution to the issue (of Always Chaotic Evil bad guy races existing only to be killed) - the cultists are bad guys, they have clear destructive goals and methods, they don't map clearly onto any IRL group - you can make a link to your preferred IRL Bad Guys, but it's not obvious in the fiction.


S'mon

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2021, 03:30:00 AM »
I don't think we're seeing the end of combat. Even WoTC's primary target demographic loves combat, though they may not like *hard* combat.  ;D IME a female thespian player (whether actual professional actor or just in-game actor) loves hacking up bad guys as much as the ex-army/police player who trained the Special Boat Service in takedown techniques... it's fun stress relief. Some players get bored of whole sessions of long extended combat, so I can see a move to making combat quicker and easier. More allowance for noncombat solutions, yes. Recently I've been seeing more prisoner taking, and more pressing/recruiting captives into service, which looks to have once been common judging by adventures like Village of Hommlet.

Svenhelgrim

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2021, 08:40:25 AM »
You can take combat out of your games if you want.  Let me know how that goes.

Neoplatonist1

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2021, 10:08:39 AM »
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

HappyDaze

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2021, 10:12:12 AM »
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?
That's Geeky for you. He taught me to never extent to others the same courtesies you demand from them.

Lunamancer

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2021, 10:12:49 AM »
Social media keeps cracking down harder and harder on "harmful content." Even in the less woke corners of the internet, physical violence is considered a no no. And it seems the algorithms are not especially good at distinguishing fictional and game violence from actual real life threats. It's not impossible to imagine a future where combat-less RPGs, even if they're terribly boring compared to combat-filled ones, get the vast majority of real estate on mainstream platforms.
That's my two cents anyway. Carry on, crawler.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2021, 10:15:35 AM »
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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Neoplatonist1

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2021, 10:16:15 AM »
Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I think you could make that criticism - if it is a criticism - even more about videogame combat, or film and TV combat. It's pretty well ubiquitous in popular fiction. Except the 'any combat results in PTSD' type fiction, which is no more realistic than 'overnight rest heals all wounds'. :)

I don't get the impression that fictional & RPG combat trains people to see violence as a solution IRL; I think our brains easily distinguish the two. I do think media can often act as propaganda to dehumanise 'the enemy', which is a different issue.

WoTC went through a phase of "It's Always Demon Cultists" which was a sort of solution to the issue (of Always Chaotic Evil bad guy races existing only to be killed) - the cultists are bad guys, they have clear destructive goals and methods, they don't map clearly onto any IRL group - you can make a link to your preferred IRL Bad Guys, but it's not obvious in the fiction.

How could RPGs be altered to dehumanize the people the wokies wish to dehumanize?

GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2021, 10:16:58 AM »
Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

I think you could make that criticism - if it is a criticism - even more about videogame combat, or film and TV combat. It's pretty well ubiquitous in popular fiction. Except the 'any combat results in PTSD' type fiction, which is no more realistic than 'overnight rest heals all wounds'. :)

I don't get the impression that fictional & RPG combat trains people to see violence as a solution IRL; I think our brains easily distinguish the two. I do think media can often act as propaganda to dehumanise 'the enemy', which is a different issue.

WoTC went through a phase of "It's Always Demon Cultists" which was a sort of solution to the issue (of Always Chaotic Evil bad guy races existing only to be killed) - the cultists are bad guys, they have clear destructive goals and methods, they don't map clearly onto any IRL group - you can make a link to your preferred IRL Bad Guys, but it's not obvious in the fiction.

How could RPGs be altered to dehumanize the people the wokies wish to dehumanize?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Neoplatonist1

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2021, 10:17:10 AM »
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2021, 10:20:40 AM »
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

You quote a single thing from my long ass answer to you... Who's acting in bad faith?

You come making unsubstantiated claims about how TTRPGs train people to be violent, while claiming you're against the wokies. Who's acting in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Off course you could pretend to be offended and think that gets you off the hook from providing the evidence to support such claims, don't think it will work.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Are we seeing the end of combat?
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2021, 10:24:35 AM »
So you answered to me mocking you...

You want me to treat you as though you are in bad faith?

Have you found the scientific evidence for your extraordinary assertions? Until you provide that you only get me asking for it and providing the evidence that you're talking BS.

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7

Is that a yes?

Lets try this again, here's the full answer from where you're clipping that. Lets see if you answering to that is in good faith or if you're just trying to deviate attention from your unsubstantiated assertions shall we?

This business of politicizing gaming in the southpaw direction, such that all monsters must be individuals capable of free will and, so, of any alignment, has implications beyond just erasing the trope of irredeemably evil races. It also attacks the central pillar of virtually all RPGs, which is combat.

Combat is the central pillar of virtually all RPGs? Says who? Where's the evidence to back this up?

Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big combat section. I have yet to find one that doesn’t. Care to submit some?

Nice try, nope, combat is an important part of the game but not (and I quote) "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm" Every RPG I've ever looked at has a big magic section. I have yet to find one that doesn't. Care to sunmit one?

I'm of course mocking you, by your argument lots of things could be "THE CENTRAL PILLAR OF ALL TTRPGS!tm"

Millennium’s End

Top Secret

Traveller

Aftermath

Twilight: 2000

Robotech

I’m sure there are more. So, I’ve answered your question, will you answer mine: can you name any RPG that doesn’t feature a chapter dedicated to combat?


So you answered to me mocking you...

Quote
Quote
Combat is cheap drama, and, in my experience, no games deal much or at all with the psychological scars and trauma that real life combat inflicts on its participants. Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence, and as intrinsically fun.

Bolding mine. Care to provide evidence for this extraordinary claim? Remember that extraordinary clai9ms require extraordinary evidence. I want to see a longitudinal study spawning several countries and years with ACTUAL gamers that proves this assertion, so far the only such study (about video games mind you) says you're talking BS.

What RPGs do you know of that don’t have a large combat section? What psychic consequences are there for characters in D&D combat? What players of RPGs include combat while holding their nose? If it’s not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

What RPGs do you know about that don't have a large magic section? What spiritual consecuences are there for characters on D&D for dabling in magic? What players of RPGs include magic while holding their nose? If it's not meant to be fun why do games feature it?

See above. No, not much in the way of spiritual consequences for magic, either. And what is magic commonly for in D&D?—fighting monsters with sleep spells, magic missiles, fireballs, etc. Find me an RPG cover featuring magic that isn’t used for a combat. The message is that magic isn’t psychologically dangerous, it’s just fun. Magical combat is fun. Magical violence is fun. So, please answer my questions: What RPGs lack a chapter on combat, and supply realistic psychic consequences for combat?

What for? You backtrack about you speaking about characters and revert to the players, next you'll do it the other way around. Provide scientific evidence that RPGs train real people to solve things by using violence IRL.

Quote
First of all you were talking about "Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" Not PCs.

Yes, that’s right. It does train people to think that way, even if other things (such as personal experience) train them otherwise. The game’s characters don’t necessarily find violence fun, but the players certainly do find portrayals of violence fun or they’d eschew such violence in their games. And, this violence is free of psychic consequences for the characters and is often portrayed as the most thrilling, easiest, or inevitable option for resolving conflicts.

See? You're back to the Thompson/Sarkesian argument which has been proven false:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

So if YOU are asserting that TTRPGs are different and they do what you claim it falls on you to prove your assertion not on me to prove it flase.

Quote
Second what if it's fun? Does Minecraft train you to be an architect that builds with big cubes of diamond?

How realistically portrayed is Minecraft?

How realistically do I portray a TTRPG in my head? This has shit to do with your argument, it's just you trying to change the discussion to a different topic, provide scientific evidence of your claim that TTRPGs make people solve things with violence or shut the fuck up.

Quote
Quote
Could this "woke" business therefore be the harbinger of the end of combat as cheap drama? Must all games then be sensitive to just how powerful getting into a fight is, with its ugly consequences of trauma, confusion, and murder, and, so, knock down this central pillar? If so, what will hold up the roof?

Remove the scare quotes, it is woke cultists promoting this changes.

Bolding mine. What!? Can you differentiate between make believe and reality? No one gets PTSD from RPG combat, because the only real individuals involved are humans in the real world, and if YOU want to role play such things in YOUR table by all means feel free to do so. But leave us out of your feverish dreams.

I’m referring to characters, not players. And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes everything that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.
"Game combat, therefore, trains people to think in terms of violence as a valid solution to many of life's problems (or most, in the typical game milieu), as free of psychic consequence,[/b" No you weren't, you were talking about people, after all who has fun with an RPG? Or do you often play inception type games where the PC's are playing an RPG?

In my third paragraph I’m referring to characters being realistically affected by violence, not players. (But, isn't the point of roleplaying trying to get inside the head of your character?) And, the context here is that wokies will continue to pull the thread that undoes much, if not everything, that makes D&D enjoyable, in the name of their sensibilities and political agenda. See if they don't.

And now you're back to claiming you were talking about PCs, who cares what you think PCs are trained for in the game world? It has exactly zero effect on the real world.

Quote
Your argument is the same as the ones made by Jack Thompson and Anita Sarkesian. "Games teach people to... "

Please do provide scientific evidence of your assertion.

Scientific evidence for what? That if you eat sweets while watching a public execution you’ll be reinforcing sweets=beheading=fun in your mind? I think you’re spirited but you’re not clueless. I think that is what the wokies are going to do, is use my argument to shred gaming as we know it. See if they don’t.

Nice false equivalence, real world with real people vs game world with game believe "people". By your logic it should also train people to solve things with magic, like in curing/travelling by magic. But that's BS just like your claim that TTRPGs make players violent.

That TTRPGs make players start solving things with violence.

In case you want to pretend you didn't see the link I'll provide it again here:

https://gizmodo.com/science-finds-once-again-that-violent-video-games-dont-1823811169

And in case you don't want to click there here's the study:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0031-7


Now prove them wrong or shut the fuck up. You claim you're worried about the wokies, YOU'RE here doing their work by claiming that TTRPGs make players violent.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell