Quote from: shoplifter on April 26, 2025, 06:58:56 PM

Quote from: JanDevries on April 26, 2025, 02:13:34 PMIt's no more or less "stolen" than any other retroclone. There are valid criticisms of Zweihander and its creator to be made. This isn't one of them.

You are correct, I find it highly ironic that Fox was so instrumental in getting the Trove shut down though, considering his game is just a reskin of existing IP.

As a game, I don't really have anything bad to say about it and I'd rather play it than WFRP4.

Another dumb criticism of Fox. There's nothing wrong with not wanting your shit pirated, retro-clone or not. He wasn't the only creator involved in the Trove takedown. he's just the only one who admitted it.

Even if anyone was entitled to steal, which they're not, the Trove wasn't even the best place to get any of that stuff. Everything the Trove had could and can be found elsewhere, usually with better download speeds. Among the RPG pirating community, the Trove was seen as a joke due to how shitty, slow, and infrequently updated it was. When the Trove went down (and it's since come  back), absolutely nothing was lost that couldn't be found in several other places.

Whether something is a clone or not, piracy is still piracy. If you think Zweihander deserves to be pirated for being a clone, then the same is true for pretty much any and all OSR products. That's just dumb.

Like I said, there are valid criticisms of the man and his game. "He made it less convenient to steal" isn't one.

Username checks out, though.

Quote from: RNGm on April 25, 2025, 08:25:00 AM

Quote from: Man at Arms on April 25, 2025, 12:31:34 AMI ordered the 384 page hardcover PHB, as possible RPG inspirational material.  The price is very reasonable right now, on Amaz, with free 2 day shipping, too.  So I gave in, and dropped the coin.

Anyway, this is a genuine inquiry; not an advertisement.  I have heard of the WFRPG, but i have never seen it in person.  I think I heard that Zweihander, is "very" similar.

What have I jumped off into?

Which version?   I really hope you're already aware that they're coming out with a new edition later this year and kickstarted it last year...

This PHB has a 2019 Copyright.  I have it in hand now.  I'm considering it, a personal introduction to d100 RPGs.  I like the Critical Success / Critical Failure mechanic.  I like the Exploding Dice mechanic.

I completely forgot to check "The List" thread, before spending my money.  When that thread was first posted, I checked it often; but then I burned out on reading it, after the first 30 to 40 visits.

There was a time when you could hardly have a discussion on the net about WFRP without Fox butting in to promote Zweihander. I was initially interested in his WFRP clone, back when it really was just a clone, but that sort of behavior turned me away.

In hindsight, I'm thankful that happened.

I was always told that if you want a simpler, rules lite version of Zweihander/Warhammer Fantasy, then look at getting Warlock.

Warlock on DTRPG

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 27, 2025, 08:35:47 PMI was always told that if you want a simpler, rules lite version of Zweihander/Warhammer Fantasy, then look at getting Warlock.

Warlock on DTRPG

Oh yes, Warlock! is great fun.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 27, 2025, 08:35:47 PMI was always told that if you want a simpler, rules lite version of Zweihander/Warhammer Fantasy, then look at getting Warlock.

Warlock on DTRPG

Warlock! is more like Advanced Fighting Fantasy with an old school WFRPG aesthetic.  If the OP is looking for d100 games akin to the WFRPG system then it may not be what he's looking for.

For those who don't know, here is a short list of Warlock's features.

1.  No stats.  It's skill based, which are bought with points.  You only roll for your starting HP and your luck points.

2.  Dice are just 1D20 and D6's. The rest can go back in your dice bag.

3.  Dice rolls are 1D20+skill (skill = 4-10 at start).  Beat a 20 to succeed.  GM's can change that target number for situations that need it.

4.  Combat is an opposed roll, winner hits the loser, and having initiative gains you a +5.  Yup, attack and fail, YOU get hit.

5.  Armor reduces damage you take.

6.  Character creation is done with a random rolls to create a list of four classes you can pick from out of 24 available.  The classes range from normal people, like boatmen and rat catchers, down to outright criminals like grave robbers or highwaymen. 

7.  "Heroes" exist, but they're prestige classes that require you to dual class and raise several of your skills up to get access.

8.  Magic can backfire and permanently disable or mutate your character.

9.  Races are the four classic human, elf, dwarf, or halfling.  No classes are off limits, though.

I used to play WHFRP,  I had heard zweihander was similar, and that was interesting, but I mean, Daniel Fox is kinda on my own red list for now for "do not purchase this guy's stuff".    Doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't get it.  I sniff woke undertones in the man's work though.

Quote from: Spobo on April 25, 2025, 02:28:18 PM

Quote from: JanDevries on April 25, 2025, 12:47:53 PM

Quote from: Spobo on April 25, 2025, 10:26:14 AMThey went hard woke pretty quickly, which you can see with the dedicated LGBT supplement and the Flames of Freedom spinoff game that does a Hamilton-like pozzing of the American revolution.

No question that Zweihander is woke but the LGBT supplement is a third party product

I think it is official, it's published through their page on drivethru. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/331633/lgbt-in-a-grim-and-perilous-world-supplement-for-zweihander-rpg?

I've read through the preview some time ago, and I have to say....

The person who wrote it is an idiot and a grifter. I'm glad they admitted they're not an expert on history because it shows.

Beyond that, I don't see the point in it. The fact that it's a copper best seller tells me there are some serious idiots out there.

I don't give two shits about the sexual orientation of your character. It only effects the game if I as the DM say so, but don't hold your breath. Searching for the long lost Butt-Plug of Chad Thunder-cock isn't going to happen you sickos.

Millennials obsession with sexual orientation is borderline creepy.

Quote from: rkhigdon on April 28, 2025, 08:19:28 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 27, 2025, 08:35:47 PMI was always told that if you want a simpler, rules lite version of Zweihander/Warhammer Fantasy, then look at getting Warlock.

Warlock on DTRPG

Warlock! is more like Advanced Fighting Fantasy with an old school WFRPG aesthetic.  If the OP is looking for d100 games akin to the WFRPG system then it may not be what he's looking for.

This. Warlock! is awesome, it just doesn't scratch the same itch. If you like WFRP-inspired Fighting Fantasy stuff, there's also Kriegsmesser.

Thanks for the replies.  Zweihander is one way to get into d100 rpgs, but obviously not the only one.  I'm finding it interesting, even if it is greatly based upon another rpg.  So many rpgs on the market, if you really look.

Quote from: JanDevries on April 27, 2025, 01:04:50 AM

Quote from: shoplifter on April 26, 2025, 06:58:56 PM

Quote from: JanDevries on April 26, 2025, 02:13:34 PMIt's no more or less "stolen" than any other retroclone. There are valid criticisms of Zweihander and its creator to be made. This isn't one of them.

You are correct, I find it highly ironic that Fox was so instrumental in getting the Trove shut down though, considering his game is just a reskin of existing IP.

As a game, I don't really have anything bad to say about it and I'd rather play it than WFRP4.

Another dumb criticism of Fox. There's nothing wrong with not wanting your shit pirated, retro-clone or not. He wasn't the only creator involved in the Trove takedown. he's just the only one who admitted it.

Even if anyone was entitled to steal, which they're not, the Trove wasn't even the best place to get any of that stuff. Everything the Trove had could and can be found elsewhere, usually with better download speeds. Among the RPG pirating community, the Trove was seen as a joke due to how shitty, slow, and infrequently updated it was. When the Trove went down (and it's since come  back), absolutely nothing was lost that couldn't be found in several other places.

Whether something is a clone or not, piracy is still piracy. If you think Zweihander deserves to be pirated for being a clone, then the same is true for pretty much any and all OSR products. That's just dumb.

Like I said, there are valid criticisms of the man and his game. "He made it less convenient to steal" isn't one.

Username checks out, though.

It's not a dumb criticism. I have no personal beef with Fox, but let's face facts. He created a retro-clone of someone else's IP, and then went out of his way to prevent other people from pirating his partially-copied work. He's just not in a moral position to complain about Internet "piracy", when his precious game is a copy of someone else's IP.

And let me add that I have absolutely no moral objection (in general) to Internet piracy. Copyright law (as we currently know it) needs to die in a fire. It needs to be either abolished, or at least MASSIVELY REFORMED.

Furthermore, internet piracy is not theft, and it never will be. Copyright is currently used as a weapon to starve the public domain. IP should not be permitted to be auctioned off to third parties unto perpetuity. But that's the situation we have now.  Copyright does not protect creators, and it's not meant to. Instead, copyright protects giant multi-billion dollar corporations who purchase enormous amounts of copyrights (sucking them up like a giant Hoover vacuum cleaner), and then they use them to repress innovation for extremely long periods of time.

"Piracy is piracy", you say?

Good.

Because we need more piracy, not less. Just remember that the intellectual properties that we love are (usually) controlled by the worst people on Earth. Chew on that for a while.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on May 01, 2025, 03:45:06 PMIt's not a dumb criticism. I have no personal beef with Fox, but let's face facts. He created a retro-clone of someone else's IP, and then went out of his way to prevent other people from pirating his partially-copied work. He's just not in a moral position to complain about Internet "piracy", when his precious game is a copy of someone else's IP.

Yes, it's this for me. He has little to no moral standing to complain about 'his IP' being stolen when he himself made what is essentially a house-ruled WFRP2 with the numbers filed off. Plus he's just been a douchebag in general.

Is it technically a better version of WFRP2? Yes.

Is it appreciably different from WFRP2 that I believe he deserves some sort of great reward? No. The money I spent on Zweihander was because I got a hard copy and out of respect for the artists.

I'm not going to advocate for piracy, especially from small creators, but the Trove was just about the only place that had many very old, out of print, and in ownership purgatory games. Those would very likely be lost to time outside the hundred copies left in the wild in many cases.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on May 01, 2025, 03:45:06 PMIt's not a dumb criticism. I have no personal beef with Fox, but let's face facts. He created a retro-clone of someone else's IP, and then went out of his way to prevent other people from pirating his partially-copied work. He's just not in a moral position to complain about Internet "piracy", when his precious game is a copy of someone else's IP.

And let me add that I have absolutely no moral objection (in general) to Internet piracy. Copyright law (as we currently know it) needs to die in a fire. It needs to be either abolished, or at least MASSIVELY REFORMED.

Furthermore, internet piracy is not theft, and it never will be. Copyright is currently used as a weapon to starve the public domain. IP should not be permitted to be auctioned off to third parties unto perpetuity. But that's the situation we have now.  Copyright does not protect creators, and it's not meant to. Instead, copyright protects giant multi-billion dollar corporations who purchase enormous amounts of copyrights (sucking them up like a giant Hoover vacuum cleaner), and then they use them to repress innovation for extremely long periods of time.

"Piracy is piracy", you say?

Good.

Because we need more piracy, not less. Just remember that the intellectual properties that we love are (usually) controlled by the worst people on Earth. Chew on that for a while.

LMAO what a massive pile of self-serving gibberish. Just say you're poor, it'll save time.

Quote from: shoplifter on May 01, 2025, 04:08:23 PMthe Trove was just about the only place that had many very old, out of print, and in ownership purgatory games. Those would very likely be lost to time outside the hundred copies left in the wild in many cases.

This isn't even close to being true. There are at least two places that have everything in the the Trove had, and they never went down. Not to mention, /tg/ on the chans is a bigger, faster, better organized and more frequently updated place to find everything, and also where the Trove usually gets all their shit, anyway.

Name one piece of media that was lost forever with the Trove. I'll wait.

Quote from: JanDevries on May 01, 2025, 05:56:41 PM

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on May 01, 2025, 03:45:06 PMIt's not a dumb criticism. I have no personal beef with Fox, but let's face facts. He created a retro-clone of someone else's IP, and then went out of his way to prevent other people from pirating his partially-copied work. He's just not in a moral position to complain about Internet "piracy", when his precious game is a copy of someone else's IP.

And let me add that I have absolutely no moral objection (in general) to Internet piracy. Copyright law (as we currently know it) needs to die in a fire. It needs to be either abolished, or at least MASSIVELY REFORMED.

Furthermore, internet piracy is not theft, and it never will be. Copyright is currently used as a weapon to starve the public domain. IP should not be permitted to be auctioned off to third parties unto perpetuity. But that's the situation we have now.  Copyright does not protect creators, and it's not meant to. Instead, copyright protects giant multi-billion dollar corporations who purchase enormous amounts of copyrights (sucking them up like a giant Hoover vacuum cleaner), and then they use them to repress innovation for extremely long periods of time.

"Piracy is piracy", you say?

Good.

Because we need more piracy, not less. Just remember that the intellectual properties that we love are (usually) controlled by the worst people on Earth. Chew on that for a while.

LMAO what a massive pile of self-serving gibberish. Just say you're poor, it'll save time.

Quote from: shoplifter on May 01, 2025, 04:08:23 PMthe Trove was just about the only place that had many very old, out of print, and in ownership purgatory games. Those would very likely be lost to time outside the hundred copies left in the wild in many cases.

This isn't even close to being true. There are at least two places that have everything in the the Trove had, and they never went down. Not to mention, /tg/ on the chans is a bigger, faster, better organized and more frequently updated place to find everything, and also where the Trove usually gets all their shit, anyway.

Name one piece of media that was lost forever with the Trove. I'll wait.

Daniel Fox, is that you?

I'll let you in on a little secret, Danny.....and tell you that the multi-billion dollar mega-corporations and the ultra-giant asset management firms that fund them with billions (trillions actually!) of dollars of ESG investment capital....don't really need you to white knight on their behalf.

Why would you ever defend the idea of depraved billionaires buying up all the copyrights, for the purpose of repressing innovation? Help me here. Help me to understand your position on this issue. You do have a position here, right, Danny?