Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1015723Some (not all) gamers that broadcast their sessions on video streams simply are doing it to entertain viewers that are in their chatroom. There's all kinds of reasons why a person would watch (and maybe even throw some money at) such things. And it doesn't have to be RPGs that they're doing. It could be any topic/subject.



For every game session that doesn't have OOC yapping in it, there are 1,000s of game sessions that do. They are rare. But they exist. If I know someone is an OOC yapper, they don't get an invite.

Are you talking about cracking jokes at the table ?

Quote from: Voros;1015721I agree with your point in general but it feels like you've really made an overbroad statement. Could you give an example of what play without OOC metalayer would even look like? That sounds like some kind of ideal 'method' notion of RPG playing, there is always an OOC metalayer to play, from character builds to passing the cheetos. And aren't players and GMs often 'playing' to each other? That is part of the fun of a game.

CRKrueger and his friends must be telepath aliens playing through their minds alone, with no need for accessories.

The truth is they use as many "OOC" mechanics as everyone else, but as those mechanics are familiar to them, they forget they exist.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1015663Same Hobby? Sure.
Same activity? No.

Whatever RPG they are playing, they add an OOC metalayer to it, namely one of performance for entertainment by viewers.
Playing the game with that metalayer, like any metalayer, is different than playing without it.

As someone that has experience with both improv acting in front of an audience and tabletop RPG, if I was looking for pure, in-character immersion as my priority, I get a lot more of that from improv acting than a tabletop RPG. RPG mechanics are a lot more immersion-breaking than the presence of an audience.

And, unless you are playing solo, there is always an audience when you roleplay. I see people playing for the audience of other players all the time in games.

I keep reading the title as "RPG Steamers," and it makes me think of games that are like a huge lump of shit.

Quote from: Voros;1015721I agree with your point in general but it feels like you've really made an overbroad statement. Could you give an example of what play without OOC metalayer would even look like? That sounds like some kind of ideal 'method' notion of RPG playing, there is always an OOC metalayer to play, from character builds to passing the cheetos. And aren't players and GMs often 'playing' to each other? That is part of the fun of a game.

1. Any RPG, by definition, is going to have a possible OOC metalayer as players may make decisions and have their characters act for game reasons, for a variety of social reasons, etc.  Usually, this is going to show up from decision to decision.  In other words I make 12 decisions IC, 1 decision OOC because I want to encourage the new player, 4 decisions IC, 1 decision OOC because I know how game rules work and my character doesn't, 5 decisions IC, 1 decision OOC because goddamn that would make for a cool story arc, etc.

This type of metalayer may be present, or not, and for the most part is internal to the thinking of the player and no one will ever really know why the character is acting as they do.

What many of the professional youtubers are doing is different.  They are sitting down at the table knowing this will be a performance to entertain others and gain viewers for the channel and their personal and collective brands - this is a mandatory OOC metalayer you can't get away from.  If the session isn't entertaining, who cares how much you liked the roleplay of your character?

2. Any game of any type will have non-game socialization, everything from Poker to Cataan to Trivial Pursuit to Chess to RPGs.  That level of non-game social interaction is going to vary from group to group and has absolutely nothing to do with the game or activity itself.  Two friends playing Chess might non-stop talk in the park or the parlor, but not say a word during a timed competitive match.  Pretending that such communication is the same thing as a mandated OOC game mechanic as Itachi is doing, is a tired form of distinction denial.

3. Every RPG in which the player may choose how the character advances will have OOC downtime as the character obviously cannot choose how to spend XPs, Bennies or pick Feats, etc.  This is part and parcel of the game medium and again, has nothing to do with when you are actually roleplaying as the character, does the game itself force you to make OOC decisions, or is the fact that you've all assembled to entertain an audience influence and form an overarching context and constraint to the roleplay.

@Baulderstone, because someone at your table tends to ham it up doesn't mean you guys are doing the same thing as Critical Role.  If my table had someone who obviously was doing that all the time, they'd get voted out pretty quick.  Also, why bring out that tired old saw of "If you want to improv act..."  That's so beneath you, that's an Itachi move.  Should I counter with "If you want narrative authority you should Sim?"

It's a Roleplaying game.  God forbid someone in between ordering pizza, leveling characters, taking a piss, and snack breaks, wants to actually roleplay while playing one. :rolleyes:

Two cents.

I generally find watching people playing ttrpgs extremely boring and sometimes painfull, in a platonic sense. So it makes sense for me that those streaming-guys try to put up a show and editing to make it more bearable. Makes it seem more funny and attractive as hobby. I would not call it a different hobby. More of a subset within the hobby itself.

Quote from: Teodrik;1015810I would not call it a different hobby. More of a subset within the hobby itself.

Yep.

Ulairi, I agree with your OP...but I support RPG streaming (even if I don't watch it).

RPG streamers are low budget reality shows. Thus, success depends on the widest audience getting the most entertainment...so Show First, Game Second would make the most sense.

However, they apparently are promoting actual RPG play to a new generation...and that's awesome.

BTW, there is no doubt cosplay has been a huge boon for anime fandom (and thus sales).

I am hoping this symbiosis will benefit RPGs in the same manner.

Quote from: Ulairi;1015441I'm going to go out and continue to yell at clouds.

That's healthier than posting in political threads!

At worst, you get some fresh air!

Frankly, everything I've seen of them is garbage. It's not gamers actually playing the way gamers play (of course, that would be unspeakably boring to watch anyways), it's like one of those 'reality' shows that's full of would-be actors and made-up drama. It's bullshit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1016035Frankly, everything I've seen of them is garbage. It's not gamers actually playing the way gamers play (of course, that would be unspeakably boring to watch anyways), it's like one of those 'reality' shows that's full of would-be actors and made-up drama. It's bullshit.

You must have watched very few or only the "show" ones? I think of you look around you will find those "boring" sessions. But they get usually far fewer hits. That said I have seen a few of these sessions that very much feel like a show and lack a sense of being a real gameplay session. Others just have really energetic players who dont seem to be mugging the camera. Its just how they play.

Its the same with LARP videos. Theres many that are just players playing. And then there are those few that are really just a short movie pretending to be a LARP session.

What is streaming?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1016035Frankly, everything I've seen of them is garbage. It's not gamers actually playing the way gamers play (of course, that would be unspeakably boring to watch anyways), it's like one of those 'reality' shows that's full of would-be actors and made-up drama. It's bullshit.

There are a lot of different kinds of them apparently. I've been looking at them because someone asked me to livestream our sessions. There are the ones that are exactly what you are talking about, where they are designed with an audience in mind. But I've found others that actually seem more like an attempt to session log on youtube (these can be extremely boring, but I imagine they have some utility for the people in the game if they need to remember something that happened, or for people who might want to play that game and want to know how the mechanics play in action----also a new GM might benefit). People still know they are being filmed, but you also forget you are being filmed after a while. There is also wide spectrum in the middle. I have to admit, I don't really understand the attraction to them. But now that I've streamed a couple of sessions, I can at least see the utility of having that record there to go back to. I can also see it maybe benefiting someone who is a little unclear on some of the concepts or running an adventure. But I don't see much entertainment value (I've listened and it is pretty dull). I suppose people who haven't gamed in a while might get vicarious value from them. My guess is people don't listen to streams on this end of the spectrum the whole way through. They probably listen and view by skipping around to get a sense of things. Unless you are going full reality show though, I think the entertainment value of these isn't huge.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1016074What is streaming?

People recording sessions and putting them up on youtube and other venues. You can also livestream sessions where you literally just put your google hangouts session on youtube live.

Quote from: Ulairi;1015441I don't get the RPG streaming fad. I get that guys like that there are somewhat attractive women doing it who often will dress up in provocative clothing while steaming but I have noticed that when folks that hit a larger market of streaming that they aren't playing the game at the table that the way I think most gamers do (or I'm way out of touch). They are playing for "performance" and not playing for "plays" sake. I'm almost feel that the streamers are to RPGs as cosplayers are to comicbooks or other fandoms in that the use of the source material is only for the dress up or the use of RPGS is only for the performance. I also am skeptical that folks that do the streaming also are in it for money as I see that usually they collect money and things.

I just was watching a D&D 5E stream and the way the players talked, interacted with each other, and did things it was obviously they were doing for what made the best "show" and not for what made the best "game" if you get me.


I'm going to go out and continue to yell at clouds.

People changing their behavior in front of camera isn't a new phenomenon.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1015808... because someone at your table tends to ham it up doesn't mean you guys are doing the same thing as Critical Role.  If my table had someone who obviously was doing that all the time, they'd get voted out pretty quick.

You would really exclude a ham at the table? I find they often make the game more engaging and amusing, when I GM I found players reacted well to the GM haming it up as well.

As to Shawn excluding people who 'yap too much at the table' I get this surreal image of players in gimp suits around the table.