Quote from: The Traveller;717525You know, there are so many little touches like this which go completely under the radar - good GMs just assume everyone does them, and less experienced GMs just don't know about them. They can make the difference between a mediocre game and a ripping good game.

Chaosium's Griffin Mountain campaign book for RuneQuest stands in my mind as one of the most helpful published models.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;717537I have found that some players didn't even know they would like a living world campaign until they got to play in one.

My own regular group is more accustomed to a different form, but I've had some success with the dynamic approach on a small scale.

To me, "Wandering Monsters" are a big part of the je ne sais quoi of Ye Olde Tyme Pre-WotC Dungeons & Dragons.

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;717585Could you instead of having a specific encounter table like

1d6 orcs
1d12 bandits
small hunting party


etc . . .

do one that is situational

Small hostile group
Friendly native to area
deadly territorial beast
magical terrain/event


Would that work to serve the same purposes as a more traditional random encounter chart.

I guess what you mean is only the vagaries, eh? In other words, when you roll "magical terrain/event," it could be basically anything you happen to make up at the moment.

That's a fine tool for inspiration, but I'd say no, it does not serve the same purposes.

Quote from: Adric;717692Instead of adventures or monsters, you can try populating your world with interesting questions.

Sorry, but I need to go with both because my players would nod off without interesting things to do by way of answering the questions.

Quote from: Phillip;717765Sorry, but I need to go with both because my players would nod off without interesting things to do by way of answering the questions.

The things to do are a result of directed questions. When you hav the question "what menace lies ahead" you are saying there is a menace ahead. It's like a more immersive way of saying "what do you want to do today?" With a little more direction towards the exciting and dangerous.

It also gives the players a chance to connect their characters to the world and their adventures in meaningful ways beyond "I want to kill things and take their stuff" when you ask them what it is they want to gain from a certain activity or place, which gives you the chance to put more than hit points and loot in peril.

This method of play does require the GM and the system to be flexible and reactive to the players, but I at least find it fun.

Using questions in conjunction to random tables can make them more meaningful to the characters than road bumps along the way too.

Quote from: Adric;717823The things to do are a result of directed questions. When you hav the question "what menace lies ahead" you are saying there is a menace ahead. It's like a more immersive way of saying "what do you want to do today?" With a little more direction towards the exciting and dangerous.

It also gives the players a chance to connect their characters to the world and their adventures in meaningful ways beyond "I want to kill things and take their stuff" when you ask them what it is they want to gain from a certain activity or place, which gives you the chance to put more than hit points and loot in peril.

This method of play does require the GM and the system to be flexible and reactive to the players, but I at least find it fun.

Using questions in conjunction to random tables can make them more meaningful to the characters than road bumps along the way too.

There is also the subjectivity of what a 'menace' is.

Annoying kids begging for coins?

A self righteous paladin sticking his nose in everyone's business?

I much prefer to just let events and things speak for themselves and let the players determine their reaction to them.

Quote from: Jacob Marley;717404How did you learn to do this? Is this something you naturally picked up on or was it taught to you by another DM?

I ask this because when I look at most published adventures there is very little guidance on how to incorporate encounter tables. A typical Paizo AP, for example, generally includes an encounter table but it seldom includes any good advice on how to incorporate that table with what is going on in the adventure. I often wonder just how many DMs are brought up on something similar to the Paizo model? If you are not shown how to utilize an encounter table and/or lack the ambition to learn from DMs who do know, then you may end up with experiences like the ones Sommerjon posted.

In my case, I was fairly lucky in that I did have a good DM to learn from.

The Paizo APs are usually a poor fit for those tables because you're on some form of XP track.  Wandering around too much could cause problems with the assumed power level of the PCs by the time they hit the next chapter.  In that light I do agree there should be more guidance on what they expect one to do with them.

Quote from: mcbobbo;717886The Paizo APs are usually a poor fit for those tables because you're on some form of XP track.  Wandering around too much could cause problems with the assumed power level of the PCs by the time they hit the next chapter.  In that light I do agree there should be more guidance on what they expect one to do with them.

Wandering monsters don't serve the same purpose in more modern D&D iterations. The XP they provide in relation to the inconvenience they cause results in a massively positive effect for the party. Instead of being a dangerous nuisance, the encounter is a pretty good power-up.

Such is the way of things when fighting all that you can brings the highest rewards.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;717878There is also the subjectivity of what a 'menace' is.

Annoying kids begging for coins?

A self righteous paladin sticking his nose in everyone's business?

I much prefer to just let events and things speak for themselves and let the players determine their reaction to them.

Both of those could be pretty interesting events to explore. Annoying kids might need more work than the paladin, since your description describes them as an annoyance instead of a real menace. I'd want to follow up with something that makes them actually dangerous.

The players trying to lowball the threat is either them asking for me to get creative and surprise them with something horrible (the kids worship some malicious tiny god thats threatening to take over the town) that they want a challenge involving more social skills and less violent problem solving? or that they're just not interested in this place and want to move on. (or maybe that they want to beat up starving children - why am I playing with those assholes?)

I find that players are more often likely to use the opportunity to express their own creativity than just make boring easy encounters. My groups generally thrive on improvisational gaming, and we use games that emphasise that. Its a style of play that works for some, but not for others.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;717897Wandering monsters don't serve the same purpose in more modern D&D iterations. The XP they provide in relation to the inconvenience they cause results in a massively positive effect for the party. Instead of being a dangerous nuisance, the encounter is a pretty good power-up.

Such is the way of things when fighting all that you can brings the highest rewards.

That sounds like grinding levels on meaningless chumps for a purely mechanical benefit. If everybody's there just to fight things, go up levels, and get mad loot then that's cool, but to me it sounds like a bit of  disconnect between character behaviour and player behaviour that I'm not interested in playing  or gming.

Quote from: mcbobbo;717886The Paizo APs are usually a poor fit for those tables because you're on some form of XP track.  Wandering around too much could cause problems with the assumed power level of the PCs by the time they hit the next chapter.  In that light I do agree there should be more guidance on what they expect one to do with them.

Yeah, I agree that APs are generally a poor fit for random encounter tables. Paizo's APs were just a handy, current example of how publishers fail to offer good guidance on how to use their product and just assume that DMs know what they are doing. Nearly every complaint I hear about random encounter tables comes from players who had DMs that had no clue what they were doing.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;717897Wandering monsters don't serve the same purpose in more modern D&D iterations. The XP they provide in relation to the inconvenience they cause results in a massively positive effect for the party. Instead of being a dangerous nuisance, the encounter is a pretty good power-up.

Such is the way of things when fighting all that you can brings the highest rewards.

Luckily, XP is one of those areas that is trivially easy to house rule. But your right, the rules as written in WotC/Paizo D&D do set the incentive structure up to kill everything you come across. The only area that would give pause is: not every creature poops out treasure.

Also, good stuff on your post on how you use random encounter tables.

XP progression in TSR D&D is deliberately slower (and usually less dependent on combat). There is no need to be X level to progress to Y adventure chapter and thus necessitate Z (often equalized) experience progression. Previously the game played well with mixed parties following goals at their own pace. Level grinding as a prerequisite to adventure is more a modern development.

Please note that Wandering Monster charts are to be used with Reaction Charts...so not every monster met = roll for initiative.

It was quite possible to encounter 40 orcs who just kept on marching down the road, neutral to encountering your PCs.

Quote from: robiswrong;716895They're also useful tools on the GM side to avoid unconscious railroading, and help maintain impartiality.

Exactly.  Avoiding needless prep is a nice side-effect, but the real purpose of random tables of all kinds (not just encounter tables) is that it keeps the GM from 'knowing what to expect' and then proceeding to thrust those expectations unto the players.

As someone that started playing just as 1st edition was rolling off the presses, the idea of purely random wandering monsters was already on its deathbed. You can see this in modules like the A* Slaver series (1980) where random monsters are based on the module's theme. In N1 Against the Cult of the Reptile God (1982), a low level party (1st level) makes a four day journey from Hochoch to Orlane. What is funny is that just bout any roll on the outdoor encounter table will overwhelmingly slaughter them. But hey, let's not let rules get in the way of a good adventure.