Dwarves are the real racists. They hate goblins, they hate orcs, they hate elves, they hate giants. WTF is up with those bigot midgets?

Of course orcs are racist.  They allows go on proclaiming how superior they are to other races.  Always raiding the lands of their peaceful neighbors and only sparing those that can be slaves to work on in the fields as those poor none orcs get whipped by painful thorn whips.  May the gods have mercy to those captured non-orc women.  I mean those orcs just love to attack the elves.  I mean fuck how racist can you get?

Or we can group up and face the fact that this is just a silly game.  Take your pick people.

Not this bullshit again.....

Quote from: jhkim;839240I think the question is crap, because it implies a binary of:

1) No one could ever possibly use non-human races to express a racist allegory.

or

2) Every fantasy race is explicit white supremacy.


That's not how it works. Some fantasy expresses subtle or not-so-subtle racist ideas. Some great authors - like H.P. Lovecraft, R.E. Howard, and E.R. Burroughs - had blatantly racist views in the real world, and in some cases, they expressed these views in their fantasy.

In a lot of cases, it's hard to avoid having fantasy races coming across as allegories for people. I've several times run into the awkward "room full of orc women and children" situation, for example. Alternately, I played an orcish merchant in a recent GURPS Fantasy campaign, and he was proud of his family and heritage. When these things come up, it reminds people of real-world race - and people can sometimes show their views.

This is fair, but my question was more of an opener, not an explicit "there are only two choices" sort of thing. And, of course, ANY author is going to project something of their own personal views in their writings; to think otherwise is pretty ridiculous. However, in this specific case, I suppose my question is more of, hey, this seems completely ridiculous so wtf is the deal?

To me, at least, when I play D&D specifically, orcs are just bags of experience points. They are inherently evil, so killing them raises no eyebrows. Interestingly enough, when I ran MERP not that long ago, there is a specific passage about orcs (actual orcs, not uruks) being culturally evil, not genetically, so I ran with that and it created all sorts of interesting in-game "problems". But in neither instance did I think that orcs were some sort of racist allegory, because it was "only a game". THAT is the issue for me: if it's a game, why drag a bunch of legitimate real-world issues? I want to play games as an escape from reality...I do honest philosophical reflection enough, no need to pollute my fun.

Quote from: jeff37923;839263Not this bullshit again.....

Yes we got this bullshit again.  I just want to burn it in fire.

The problem I have with this argument is that the people who are making it are basically equating humans to non-humans.

Orcs are a related, but different species, like say the Neanderthal or Homo Erectus.

If you comparing real world humans to a fictional, non-human species, and then claiming it's a sign of racism, I think the person doing the comparing is the racist in order to even see the comparison in the first place.

I haven't clicked on that thread link, but I can imagine what it's like.
I've seen it all before many times and it's boring.

Quote from: Brad;839226Well, are they?

Or are some people just trying to find reasons to be outraged instead of taking fiction at face value...

This again? God, I've seen seeing this same topic since the 80s. (Not directed at the OP).

Quote from: Brad;839226Well, are they?

Or are some people just trying to find reasons to be outraged instead of taking fiction at face value...

Cannot speak about the context of the specific game linked. Is it possible some game added racist overtones to orcs? Sure.

Are orcs inherently a racist concept? Absolutely not. People like to project their own analogies onto them and then claim things based on this as if their projections are "facts".

First off, there's a difference between race and species (and its an unfortunate Gygaxian legacy of this hobby and the other hobbies it inspired that those two continue to be confused). And "specism" (specieism?) is not racism. If I hate cockroaches, that doesn't make me racist against roaches.

Second, many people are uncomfortable with a fantasy creature being "inherently evil". Even Tolkien wrestled with that insomuch as it applied to his Catholic beliefs, which is why we don't have any set origin of Tolkien's orcs/goblins. Fair enough, except that being uncomfortable with that doesn't over-ride author intention. If, in a fantasy world, its declared "all such-and-such are inherently evil", they just are. Real-world logic doesn't apply. And for those people who refuse to engage it on those terms, I call general hypocrisy. Things can exist in a fantasy setting that cannot exist in real life (in fact that's rather the point). So judging a race by those standards, in a situation you're willing to give a pass to "Magic!" is hypocritical.

Thirdly, not all cultures are created equal. One can hate a culture without being racist, because culture is no more inherent than religion. And if a culture is based on mass slaughter, mindless brutality, and constant warfare, then that culture is not some ethical highground that deserves some level of respect.

But last, and most important of all, you cant be racist against things that don't exist.


All that said, SJWs are going to continue flogging this dead horse for as long as they can, because that's the whole point of being an SJW.

As if the blatant orc racism around here wasn't bad enough, we need to have a conversation about why this site didn't roll out a rainbow banner to celebrate #lovewins. Clearly this is problematic.

Quote from: The_Shadow;839280As if the blatant orc racism around here wasn't bad enough, we need to have a conversation about why this site didn't roll out a rainbow banner to celebrate #lovewins. Clearly this is problematic.

I got a nasty email because I didn't rainbow up my profile pic on facebook last week.

My response? "I love gays, but I fucking hate rainbows."

Orcs in my game world are such racists they no longer ride wargs but Dukes of Hazard chariots flying the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Bastards probably vote Republican too, excepted the enlightened ones still trying to get Ron Paul voted benevolent over lord of all.

Quote from: Brad;839264To me, at least, when I play D&D specifically, orcs are just bags of experience points. They are inherently evil, so killing them raises no eyebrows.

OD&D orcs were chaotic, or neutral. Meaning that they werent all thugs or raiders. Moreso because O and BX chaos did not necessarily = evil.

https://youtu.be/SA0aKjY8K50

Someday we can put all this SJW nonsense behind us, and just talk about rpgs. But that is not this day.

Quote from: TristramEvans;839281I got a nasty email because I didn't rainbow up my profile pic on facebook last week.

My response? "I love gays, but I fucking hate rainbows."

Me too.  Hang on while I cut and paste my response:

Well, for starters, I was an activist who was a member of MassEquality ‡ when we were still working towards legalizing same-sex marriage ANYwhere.  You were living in this state then.  Where were you?

For another, I'm not a sheep.  I'm not one of those johnny-come-latelies who drape themselves in rainbows now they're sure they're not going to lose their jobs and their friends won't dare to snarl at them over it.  I get that a lot of rainbow-waving politicians were on record as opposing same-sex marriage just a couple years ago.  

But I sure as hell don't have to justify myself to YOU.  This is the same reason I don't wear green on St. Patrick's Day: because I'm Irish 364 days a year, and I've got nothing to prove.  Go be a sheep if you want, but no one elected you anyone's shepherd.


‡ For those of you scoring at home, MassEquality was the grassroots organization that spearheaded the fight to legalize same-sex marriage in Massachusetts.