Quote from: Doom;740639See, I consider that more of a bug than a feature. It was the same thing in 4e, where basically your AOE effects only targeted the red dots on your screen.

I'm not sure I like magic being so scientific, but that is the modern theme of games.

Admittedly I'm not too fond of it either.  I would have liked to see more at-will elemental effects and growing resistance to elemental type of damage myself.  The fire mage who is immune to fire at higher levels, for instance.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;740642Admittedly I'm not too fond of it either.  I would have liked to see more at-will elemental effects and growing resistance to elemental type of damage myself.  The fire mage who is immune to fire at higher levels, for instance.

Well, I would be tempted to house rule it a bit. Evoker should get more devastation, not finesse.
And regardless, a save bonus is more appropriate than immunity.

It would be kind of neat to let such a magic user attempt to find a way to protect his/her allies from getting hurt by their spells. Perhaps creating/finding special magic items or perhaps some kind of ritual that can be done to magically "mark" allies so that they are immune to an individual spell-caster's area effects. Adventure material right there, if you ask me.

OOh perhaps they have to find and perform some kind of elaborate, vaguely sinister ritual in which the spellcaster's friends have to each give up a square of their own skin or all of their hair or part of their soul or whatever. Bwah ha hhah. ANYTHING except for a sterile number that goes up mechanically as the magic user levels up.

Sorry for the derail, that's enough from me.

Quote from: Sommerjon;740621If I have to constantly ask the Dm for details that my character is able to deduce, fuck no, I don't call that "communication".

Maybe you should find another hobby then, because really the practice of any role playing game is based on that "communication" thingy I was talking about. Not sure about something? Ask the GM. If you don't want to partake in that kind of activity that's cool. There's always World of Warcraft for you, assuming you ditch the helmet and mute everybody, of course (which there too, would make you a shit player, let's face it, but you'd have the luxury to blissfully ignore people complaining while you play).

Quote from: Sommerjon;740621Wasn't my point though.
A MU doesn't have to ask the DM to memorize Magic Missile over Charm Person, if he has it in his spellbook and has the slot he is able to memorize it.
The player has a choice without having to "come to an understanding" with the DM.

The Fighter doesn't have that.  He has to "come to an understanding" with the DM for everything he does in the game.  Whoa be the player who has a DM with very stringent ideas on the Fighter.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;740622Bullshit, assmunch.

Check.

In the 80s, when NES was leading the charge to bring console gaming back into every house, we had worries that computer rpgs would destroy tabletop rpgs, assuming that people would spend their time playing the video games and never touch the tabletop games ever again.  That of course would result in no one playing tabletop games ever again.

Little did we know, 30 years later, that the real destruction to tabletop rpgs from video games wasn't that people would leave, but that they'd take their expectations from the video games into the tabletop games.

"I don't want to have to think outside of the box, I just want to mash buttons."
"I don't want to have to have discourse with a 'rulemaker', every scenario should have a rule for it."
"I want an easy mode, where there isn't any real risk of PC death and having to start all over again."

I cannot understand the world of a person who would consider asking questions to a referee "hard work", who quite literally would foam at the mouth at the idea to have to ask how high the imaginary ceiling is, how wide or deep the imaginary pit is, whether you can make knots with the imaginary rope, or what angle the imaginary slope is at.

I also cannot understand how in the world these people would enjoy a role playing game session, any role playing game session really, at all. This is puzzling, in a mind-bending kind of way, to me.

Quote from: Bill;740641I think its ok if only one type of wizard has it.

In theory, yes, but in practice, if one class has the ability that enhances fireball (say) and nobody else does, then at some point you're not going to see any players except that one class using that fireball.

It's like "selective channeling"...it sort of turns into a feat tax, or at least a "must have" that players can't do without.

Quote from: Necrozius;740650It would be kind of neat to let such a magic user attempt to find a way to protect his/her allies from getting hurt by their spells.

"I can totally protect you from my Fireballs!..."

Pregnant pause...

"First we have to get some dragon piss. Then we have to cover ourselves in it..."

Quote from: Black Vulmea;740620Yeah, you haven't lived until you've 'accidentally' torched yourself and the rest of your party with your fireball. Good times.

Lightning bolt. First time using it I zapped a minotaur at the end of a 50ft long hall. I cast the bolt centered near point blank at the minotaur. Bolt bounced back and jolted everyone, including the minotaur. But it gets better. The damn thing then bounced off the wall behind us and jolted everyone, except the minotaur, again.

About the closest I've ever come to a self TPK.

Fireball was next.

Quote from: Omega;740707Lightning bolt. First time using it I zapped a minotaur at the end of a 50ft long hall. I cast the bolt centered near point blank at the minotaur. Bolt bounced back and jolted everyone, including the minotaur. But it gets better. The damn thing then bounced off the wall behind us and jolted everyone, except the minotaur, again.

About the closest I've ever come to a self TPK.

Fireball was next.

In the words of Master Yoda,

"A feature, not a bug, this is, hmmmm?"

Quote from: Sacrosanct;740657In the 80s, when NES was leading the charge to bring console gaming back into every house, we had worries that computer rpgs would destroy tabletop rpgs, assuming that people would spend their time playing the video games and never touch the tabletop games ever again.  That of course would result in no one playing tabletop games ever again.

Little did we know, 30 years later, that the real destruction to tabletop rpgs from video games wasn't that people would leave, but that they'd take their expectations from the video games into the tabletop games.

"I don't want to have to think outside of the box, I just want to mash buttons."
"I don't want to have to have discourse with a 'rulemaker', every scenario should have a rule for it."
"I want an easy mode, where there isn't any real risk of PC death and having to start all over again."

Werl, I was just talking to Rob Kuntz about this at GaryCon.

The folks who developed Diablo (Blizz?) stated explicitly that they spent serious effort and funds to research casino gambling and found that the most money-making games are the nickel slots... frequent, intermittent, small reinforcements.

This is also the perfect formula for a Skinner box.

Unfortunately, that reinforcement pattern is extremely powerful and tends to bypass the higher thought processes.

If your goal is to make maximum money, then that's how you'll set up your game.

Quote from: benoist;740658i cannot understand the world of a person who would consider asking questions to a referee "hard work", who quite literally would foam at the mouth at the idea to have to ask how high the imaginary ceiling is, how wide or deep the imaginary pit is, whether you can make knots with the imaginary rope, or what angle the imaginary slope is at.

I also cannot understand how in the world these people would enjoy a role playing game session, any role playing game session really, at all. This is puzzling, in a mind-bending kind of way, to me.

Ermagehrd yoo have deprotagonizeded meeeee!!!!!!

Quote from: Omega;740707Lightning bolt.

I figured out damn quick that lightning bolt was highly dangerous to the party - it was fireball that kept sneaking up and scorching my butt-hairs.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;740734I figured out damn quick that lightning bolt was highly dangerous to the party - it was fireball that kept sneaking up and scorching my butt-hairs.

Same experience. I've seen more than a few fireballs backfire. Lightning bolts bouncing, I've seen it happen, but nowhere near as much. Guess some MUs are just trigger-happy once they reach that 3rd level of spells and get to learn that fireball . . . OMG Firebaaaall!!

My first experience with a fireball backfire wasn't a 5th level MU, but a 2nd level MU who found the scroll of fireball in KoTBL and used it in the owl bear den.