Funny thought: but (at least in early D&D) the default assumption was that past civilizations were more advanced than the era the players are in. Hence the ruins, liches and the like you find from time to time. Frieren: Beyond Journey's End touches on that and you have to wonder if ancient Magi weren't just more adept than the ones running around in the current fantasy realm, but they were way more numerous in comparison (maybe/maybe not per capita). I mean, D&D owes a lot of its feel to those stories that are basically post-apocalyptic in some way, such as REH's Conan, Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, Vance's Dying Earth and even Lieber's Fafhrd and Grey Mouser.

Edit: One interesting thing from Frieren: Beyond Journey's End is that the Imperial Mage Denken and the 2nd class Mage Richter get into a fist fight with another pair of Mages and beat the shit out of them. All four of them are out of Mana and so cannot cast spells, and yet can still scrap.

Well the assumptions you point out are well taken and well represented.

Spellcasters are spending their time cloistered in room poring over their tomes and experimenting with arcane and occult arts. Nothing says they *should* outdoorsmen of any sort by implication of the AD&D rules. They're academics, not men of the field, to say less than being men-at-arms.

I know something's wrong with me head but --- are you guys arguing that a game with elves and dragons and magic should be more realistic?

Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 08:57:35 PMI know something's wrong with me head but --- are you guys arguing that a game with elves and dragons and magic should be more realistic?

Not really. Just offering speculation on making Mages a little beefier, especially at low levels.

For example, the fact is everyone (and their brother) would need to be wearing a helmet cause getting your noggin clobbered would be extremely bad. I think Mages should be able to wear SOME light armor like a short-sleeved aketon or even gambeson, maybe pauldrons to protect the shoulders and a kettle helm and yet still able to cast spells. Your movement isn't really going to be restricted and even the 'Spell Failure' mechanic from 3E wasn't terrible per se. 

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on April 02, 2024, 11:10:22 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 08:57:35 PMI know something's wrong with me head but --- are you guys arguing that a game with elves and dragons and magic should be more realistic?

Not really. Just offering speculation on making Mages a little beefier, especially at low levels.

For example, the fact is everyone (and their brother) would need to be wearing a helmet cause getting your noggin clobbered would be extremely bad. I think Mages should be able to wear SOME light armor like a short-sleeved aketon or even gambeson, maybe pauldrons to protect the shoulders and a kettle helm and yet still able to cast spells. Your movement isn't really going to be restricted and even the 'Spell Failure' mechanic from 3E wasn't terrible per se.

Greetings!

Yeah, I'm fine with someone that wants to beef up the Wizard a bit, for all the reasons discussed in this thread. Yes, I know the Wizard is theoretically supposed to be this frail, academic type--to an extent, that is ok, yes, it mitigates the Wizard's later huge power, and also serves as a class differential. However, having said that, again, the vigorous wilderness environment makes some harsh demands on everyone of the team. As a Wizard, you may have trained in an academy, but out in the wilderness and dungeons, yeah, I see it as essential that the Wizard develops basic physical skills and abilities.

And yeah, pussy weak Wizards were screamed about constantly back in the old days, too. Having Wizards be good for their one spell, and then mostly helpless and needing babysitting all the time gets annoying very fast. As well as Wizard characters having an extremely high fatality rate.

And no, the Wizard certainly should not be a Fighter. But a bit of survivability, survival skills, swimming, etc, is not drastically uber-powering the Wizard.

Just another quality-of-life improvement over class design in the modern era of D&D.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 08:57:35 PM
I know something's wrong with me head but --- are you guys arguing that a game with elves and dragons and magic should be more realistic?

The game should have verisimilitude.  Just like when you read a fantasy novel like Lord of the Rings, or Elric of Melníbonè, or Leiber's Fafhrd & Gray Mouser stories.  That seeming of reality is what makes you continue to read the story...or co time to play the game instead of throwing up your hands and saying "This makes no sense".


I have to ask, Do you even play RPG's?  Or are you just passing through here on your way to some boardgame forum?

Quote from: Theory of Games on April 02, 2024, 08:57:35 PM
I know something's wrong with me head but --- are you guys arguing that a game with elves and dragons and magic should be more realistic?

My view is that RPGs should be as realistic as possible and only depart from realism when necessary for the premise of play or to make the game rules practical.  If your game is about elves and dragons, it needs unrealistic elves and dragons.  It doesn't need untrained weaklings to be equal to experienced warriors in melee combat.  Unless for some reason that's what you want the game to be about.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 03, 2024, 12:21:36 AM
The game should have verisimilitude.

That's the pretentious prick's way of saying, "I want to argue for realism when it suits me, and discard realism when it suits me." Same as the nonsense about female characters not being as strong as male.

It's a long word for dodging the point. Don't be a pretentious prick, and do contend with the actual arguments presented.

So... I don't get some of this, honestly.  Playing AD&D you can make a very survivable 1st level wizard. 

Let's do some in vivo, character generation, using AD&D 2nd edition.

The way I generate characters is 4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll ones, place the scores where I want.  For this post I generated some rolls with the intent to make a hypothetical wizard.  I got 16, 12, 10, 12, 9, 17.  Very decent.  Int is 17.  Con is 16.  Who cares about the other scores, they're mostly irrelevant.   

If I'm playing a single classed Wizard, I'm playing a specialist.    Therefore, I get two (not one) spells per day.  One from my specialty school, and Sleep.  With a 16 con, he can be an Invoker or Conjurer.  I want Sleep, but I hate losing Magic Missile, so I'll just go with color spray instead, I'll make him an Invoker.   

Most house rules, in any game I've ever played say max hp at 1st level, so he has 6 hit points.  Decent.  And he'll have weapon proficiency Darts.  3 ranged attacks per round.  He can fight from range as well as just about anyone at first level.

Spells at first level:  Let's say Read Magic, Cantrip, plus 4 others.  I'll go with Magic Missile, Color Spray, Detect Magic, and Identify.   Usually, will be memorizing Magic Missile and Color Spray. 

I've also got 10! slots for non-weapon proficiencies.  This will be in the Greyhawk campaign.  We'll put these to: Read/Write Common.  Speaks Elven.  Read/Write Elven.  Speak Orc.  Speak Dwarf.  Read/Write Dwarven.  Ancient History (Ancient Magical Ruins of Local Area).   Ancient Language (Old Oeridian), Spellcraft, Riding (Land-based)

All of a sudden this dude seems decently playable.  Not bad for a 1st level AD&D wizard, eh?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on April 03, 2024, 07:00:21 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on April 03, 2024, 12:21:36 AM
The game should have verisimilitude.

That's the pretentious prick's way of saying, "I want to argue for realism when it suits me, and discard realism when it suits me." Same as the nonsense about female characters not being as strong as male.

It's a long word for dodging the point. Don't be a pretentious prick, and do contend with the actual arguments presented.

Actually, stating that realism is not a concern in games with fantasy elements is the ultimate dodge.  OK, if we can have dragons and not break the tone, why can't we have a Corvette ZR1?  It's fantasy, right?

You know this; you're just being a pretentious prick about it.  Certain elements fit the setting and tone of the game world.  Some don't.  It is dependent on the tone developed by the players and DM.  Some groups would think adding a Corvette to the game is the coolest thing ever.  For some, it would be a game-destroying decision.  So, why don't you stop dodging the point and explain why the martial abilities of a magic user don't matter in fantasy RPGs.  At least then you'd be contending with the actual arguments presented...

Quote from: zagreus on April 03, 2024, 09:28:27 AM
So... I don't get some of this, honestly.  Playing AD&D you can make a very survivable 1st level wizard. 

Let's do some in vivo, character generation, using AD&D 2nd edition.

The way I generate characters is 4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll ones, place the scores where I want.  For this post I generated some rolls with the intent to make a hypothetical wizard.  I got 16, 12, 10, 12, 9, 17.  Very decent.  Int is 17.  Con is 16.  Who cares about the other scores, they're mostly irrelevant.   

If I'm playing a single classed Wizard, I'm playing a specialist.    Therefore, I get two (not one) spells per day.  One from my specialty school, and Sleep.  With a 16 con, he can be an Invoker or Conjurer.  I want Sleep, but I hate losing Magic Missile, so I'll just go with color spray instead, I'll make him an Invoker.   

Most house rules, in any game I've ever played say max hp at 1st level, so he has 6 hit points.  Decent.  And he'll have weapon proficiency Darts.  3 ranged attacks per round.  He can fight from range as well as just about anyone at first level.

Spells at first level:  Let's say Read Magic, Cantrip, plus 4 others.  I'll go with Magic Missile, Color Spray, Detect Magic, and Identify.   Usually, will be memorizing Magic Missile and Color Spray. 

I've also got 10! slots for non-weapon proficiencies.  This will be in the Greyhawk campaign.  We'll put these to: Read/Write Common.  Speaks Elven.  Read/Write Elven.  Speak Orc.  Speak Dwarf.  Read/Write Dwarven.  Ancient History (Ancient Magical Ruins of Local Area).   Ancient Language (Old Oeridian), Spellcraft, Riding (Land-based)

All of a sudden this dude seems decently playable.  Not bad for a 1st level AD&D wizard, eh?

I think your scenario is reasonable.  I think part of the issue here is one of poorly expressed expectations.  Most people I've encountered complaining about "weak" wizards usually mean "wizards don't do very much wizarding at low levels in early editions."  It's more about the lack of magical options to interact with the world than it is about total options to meaningfully interact.  I think subconsciously they are looking for Harry Potter wizards (where spells seem to be unlimited and the first option in most cases), instead of the implied setting of early D&D that magic was rare and powerful.  That one Sleep spell was the equivalent of a hand grenade... it was a game-changer.  So, I think it's a conflict of expectations more than a mechanical problem...

Quote from: zagreus on April 03, 2024, 09:28:27 AM
So... I don't get some of this, honestly.  Playing AD&D you can make a very survivable 1st level wizard. 

Let's do some in vivo, character generation, using AD&D 2nd edition.

The way I generate characters is 4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll ones, place the scores where I want.  For this post I generated some rolls with the intent to make a hypothetical wizard.  I got 16, 12, 10, 12, 9, 17.  Very decent.  Int is 17.  Con is 16.  Who cares about the other scores, they're mostly irrelevant.   

If I'm playing a single classed Wizard, I'm playing a specialist.    Therefore, I get two (not one) spells per day.  One from my specialty school, and Sleep.  With a 16 con, he can be an Invoker or Conjurer.  I want Sleep, but I hate losing Magic Missile, so I'll just go with color spray instead, I'll make him an Invoker.   

Most house rules, in any game I've ever played say max hp at 1st level, so he has 6 hit points.  Decent.  And he'll have weapon proficiency Darts.  3 ranged attacks per round.  He can fight from range as well as just about anyone at first level.

Spells at first level:  Let's say Read Magic, Cantrip, plus 4 others.  I'll go with Magic Missile, Color Spray, Detect Magic, and Identify.   Usually, will be memorizing Magic Missile and Color Spray. 

I've also got 10! slots for non-weapon proficiencies.  This will be in the Greyhawk campaign.  We'll put these to: Read/Write Common.  Speaks Elven.  Read/Write Elven.  Speak Orc.  Speak Dwarf.  Read/Write Dwarven.  Ancient History (Ancient Magical Ruins of Local Area).   Ancient Language (Old Oeridian), Spellcraft, Riding (Land-based)

All of a sudden this dude seems decently playable.  Not bad for a 1st level AD&D wizard, eh?

Yes, in regards to 2nd ed AD&D. But you don't have skills, specialization, or cantrips in 1st ed AD&D and some OSR versions.

True.  But it's not like 2nd Edition is some "newfangled" game.  It's been around since 1989.   Anyway, YMMV. 

(edit:  Minor correction, 2nd edition only had the Cantrip spell- just minor non damaging effects and such, puffs of smoke and the like via one spell.  AD&D 1st edition was the one that actually introduced Cantrips via Unearthed Arcana.) 

Quote from: zagreus on April 03, 2024, 10:53:51 AM
True.  But it's not like 2nd Edition is some "newfangled" game.  It's been around since 1989.   Anyway, YMMV.

Correct, but the point is what works for 2nd ed AD&D might not work with other editions.

It's a solution, but not THE solution.

just saying...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on April 03, 2024, 10:02:33 AMI think subconsciously they are looking for Harry Potter wizards (where spells seem to be unlimited and the first option in most cases)...

One of the things I did in my custom ruleset (godsmonsters.com) is that everyone gets a specialty every odd level (this is how classes with extra abilities, such as Paladins, Druids, whatever, are created—there are only five classes, but they are specialized via specialties). For the players of magic-users who want to cast common magics regularly, I created the cantrip specialty. For any spell the character has memorized, they can do unlimited minor, non-damaging effects.

For example, if you have Fan of Fire memorized, you can create a tiny flame from the end of your wand. If you have Great Ball of Fire memorized, you can create a tiny globe of flame that explodes in tiny, harmless fireworks. If you have Dust Wand memorized, you can clean a small table. If you have Open memorized, you can nudge open an unlocked door. Each without expending the spell in question.

They require the same components as the full spell, but those components aren't used up. And of course they require that the character have a special wand to cast. And if they cast the full spell, they can no longer cast cantrips from it.

It allows the player to have their character do cool, modern-style sorcery stuff at least until they exhaust themselves without the overpowering nature of having full unlimited spells to cast.