Obviously this is all subjective but it might help me understand your position on some things:

Quote from: CRKrueger;788744It's still superheroic as written.

I'm not sure I follow. When I think of Superheroic I think of flying, cutting goelems in half, stopping bullets, and hitting someone so hard with your fist that it caves in their armor. I'm not entirely sure what you feel is superheroic about 5E? Looking at some of the monsters and having run the PCs against them myself I've seen the players consider tactical retreat from kobolds and goblins because they don't have the resources to deal with them. That doesn't sound really heroic. Further, I've seen a Fighter go from 12 HP (full, at 1st level) to 2 HP from two attacks of 1/8 CR human guards. Again, not overly heroic.

What is it about the rules, either specifically or generally, that you feel make PCs superheroic?

Quote from: CRKrueger;788744It's still includes anime influence.

I don't follow. I could see a case being made for 4E Fighers (and to a lesser extend, those who utilized the Tome of Battle from v3.5) but that was largely due to their exclusive abilities having unique and often exaggerated descriptions and phrases to mark them as "special". Wolf Fang Strike, Stone Bones, Flying Claw Leap, stuff like that. The Battle Master maneuvers aren't nearly as 'fantastic" in their description from my gander at them and most of the spell lists are generally what we'd more or less see in any version of D&D.

The only ones that come glaring to my mind are the Elemental Monk and the Barbarian. But that's just me.

Quote from: CRKrueger;788744It's still Magic:The RPG in that it's powers-based exception rules design.

I'm not sure what exception rule design is? Is this where you can only do something if you have a certain feat or power to accomplish? If so, I think 5E is leaps and abounds away from where we were 14 years (heck, even 5 years) ago in this area. For example I'll display a scenario:

The group is pretty exhausted, low on HP and spells. They're looking for a place to make camp but, unfortunately, come across a roving band of Orcs. There both surprised to see each other and there's only a moment to act. The fighter in the group, thinking they can't survive another battle, makes a last second decision to scare away the Orc with a display of sheer martial prowess and fearsome intimidation.

In 3E to pull this off, one might need either a Feat (to use Strength in place of Charisma for Intimidate) or a special rule (like Dual of Wills in the Tome of Battle) to achieve said effect.

In 4E to pull this off, one might need a specific power and be trained in Intimidate to even come close to achieving a DC. A DM could also make it a Skill Challenge, further strengthening the rules-hold on how people adjudicate situations. Or maybe he'll have it akin to a specific power that emulates what he wants to do, yet it's also still tied to the rules in some way or another.

In 5E, the DM can simply say "Ok, use Strength instead of Charisma for the check." If the player describes what he's doing in detail and uses great roleplay in the process, maybe the DM rewards him with Advantage on the roll against X (X can be a single DC vs. the Orc leader OR the collective average DC after the DM rolls the opposed check OR the DM uses the Orc's Wisdom score as the DC OR the DM decides to just say it works because it's a cool idea).

Now of course this idea could just as easily work in 3E and 4E too however I think the expectation from players is that there needs to be some sort of concrete structure to how this is achieved, so that they can better plan out their turn and actions. It's a very meta-gamey way of approaching the situation rather than 5E's approach of just telling the DM what you want and having them sort it out. I think this is VERY much in the spirit of TSR-era D&D and more akin to adjudication that DMs of that era are used to.

Quote from: CRKrueger;788744It's still based on core design elements of 3e and 4e, just not taken to idiotic extremes.

I think what is derived MOST from these two edition in 5E is Cantrip casting and Healing rates. Other than that, it removes a lot of assumptions people have about 3E and 4E when diving into 5E. No more magic shops. No more assumption of feats. No more codified abilities for everything. No more expectation OF magical items that will come to them based on system-math. No more safe assumption that lower CR creatures are nearly instant-win scenarios. Theres now an expectation for the DM to step in and make a ruling on something that the rules don't specifically cover.

However I will agree that some of the quirkier things from TSR-era games aren't in there like Varying Xp progressions, alignment requirements, racial penalties and restrictions, class restrictions, etc. I'm not sure if these are really required to achieve the "old-school" feeling but after looking at some of the AD&D 2e books I came across, I doubt it would be very hard to incorporate them into any existing 5E game. I know Rule Zero somehow is considered bad in this way, though I don't really know why? Rule Zero has ben a VERY powerful tool in OSR games so I'm not sure why it isn't embraced as a dear friend?  

Quote from: CRKrueger;788744Doesn't sound like a 4venger's complaint, but you never know I guess...

As a self-proscribed 4venger myself, I think it's similiar because you give a list of why but don't really go into detail as to the reasons behind it. It's a reason I asked you because I don't really know where your coming from. If I were to say:

It's NOTHING like 4E because:

• NO warlord
• Uses DM fiat
• No tactical choices
• Boring sub-classes
• Boring magical items
• Too lethal at low levels, NEED more starting HP

It would look similar to an 4venger complaint. Now I think there's a lot of easy answers for those complaints too and they're not very difficult to plant into the system but it's what I've been reading since the PHB / Basic rules have come out on other boards. And often times "Rule Zero" is lambasted as an answer because no one wants to apparently take ownership of their D&D nowadays.

Basically Batman what you are saying is that 5e is closer to OSR then 3e or 4e, well, I agree with you for the most part.  However, closer to X is not X, which is where I was coming from in reference to the OP.  It's about as OSR as will ever come out of WotC, which still, isn't all that close.

Super heroic - Well, let's just say I'm not expecting my 5e death thread to hit 1000 pages.
Anime - Everyone's got cool powers.  Dwarf mages wearing plate mail and casting unlimited magic beams.  PewPewWTFBBQPWNZORZ!  Dungeonpunk.  All that gets rolled into "anime", it sucks, deal with it.  "Anime" gets fucked as a descriptor just as hard as "Pulp" does, but most of the time, despite the term use being incorrect, people still know what you mean by it.  I apologize to Ninja Scroll.

Quote from: jeff37923;788752As far as the OP, 5E is the new girl in class that gives it up for everyone because she is desperate to be liked. The OSR sees 5E as an easy lay and she sees them as a steppingstone to popularity.

That is a fucking disgusting comparison. Do you talk to your mother with that mouth?

Quote from: Gold Roger;788747Considerering 5e was designed under the asumption Rule Zero would be in full use and to support it, as opposed to 4e, 3e or really most RPGs I've read, I find it hard tp talk about it without taking personal customization into account to be missing the point.

In particular areas often called out as problematic, such as at will cantrips and fast natural healing, have been specifically pointed out during design as areas that are meant to be "dialed". The PHB default is set at the high end of the scale, but we know the DMG will offer alternatives.

Criticising the game based on these areas is premature at best, as we obviously have no DMG and thus no "dials".

Agree to a point.  It doesn't matter how many dials there are or whether they eventually go to 11 or 1100.  What they come set with default is the assumed setting used in modules and default setting worlds and it is completely fair to address the game from that standpoint.  Also I think you're reaching when claiming that something like at-will cantrips are meant to be optional.  One warlock build is completely centered around such an at-will cantrip.

The DMG will definitely be an interesting book, both for the options, and perhaps more importantly, the lack thereof.

Quote from: CRKrueger;788774Also I think you're reaching when claiming that something like at-will cantrips are meant to be optional.  One warlock build is completely centered around such an at-will cantrip.

Warlocks are optional.

"It's superheroic" and "anime influence" are the "Mother May I" and "Rule 0 Fallacy" for the OSR set.

Quote from: CRKrueger;788774Agree to a point.  It doesn't matter how many dials there are or whether they eventually go to 11 or 1100.  What they come set with default is the assumed setting used in modules and default setting worlds and it is completely fair to address the game from that standpoint.

I expect that any group playing pure Basic with only core classes, Feats turned off, etc. is NOT going to be anywhere near that 'default'... it's going to be an extreme outlier... might as well be a different game... and might involve as much work to run 5e modules as there'd be in converting them to some OSR game. No big win for folks who'd want to play with the bells & whistles dialed down.

Quote from: JonWake;788778"It's superheroic" and "anime influence" are the "Mother May I" and "Rule 0 Fallacy" for the OSR set.

The opinion that D&D feels like a superhero game is nothing new or limited to the OSR set. Maybe not the intention of its creators but the way a lot of folks played/play it certainly feels that way... and the art often seemed to encourage it.

Quote from: Simlasa;788779I expect that any group playing pure Basic with only core classes, Feats turned off, etc. is NOT going to be anywhere near that 'default'... it's going to be an extreme outlier... might as well be a different game... and might involve as much work to run 5e modules as there'd be in converting them to some OSR game. No big win for folks who'd want to play with the bells & whistles dialed down.

That's true, Basic alone by itself is a different animal, only time will tell what the real implied default is.  Pretty sure that Core, oddly enough will be the three Core books though.

and on that note...

Quote from: jadrax;788776Warlocks are optional.

Sorry, I forgot we were going along with pretending the 3 core books weren't really core.  You do know all that Basic is the game bullshit is...just bullshit, right?

Quote from: JonWake;788778"It's superheroic" and "anime influence" are the "Mother May I" and "Rule 0 Fallacy" for the OSR set.

like drive-by comments are for the chucklehead set?

Quote from: Larsdangly;788771That is a fucking disgusting comparison. Do you talk to your mother with that mouth?

Jeff has a talent for maximum offense per word count when he wants to push buttons.  At some point, he'll type a single word and the internet will implode.

Quote from: Simlasa;788779I expect that any group playing pure Basic with only core classes, Feats turned off, etc. is NOT going to be anywhere near that 'default'... it's going to be an extreme outlier... might as well be a different game... and might involve as much work to run 5e modules as there'd be in converting them to some OSR game. No big win for folks who'd want to play with the bells & whistles dialed down.

I was hoping that this would not be the case as I am personally enamored with Basic.  Is it consensus now that you won't be able to use Basic to run the standard 5E modules?

BTW, for whoever, I understand that...
"5e is not OSR"
...might be turned into...
"5e is a shit-stained piece of crap game not worthy of play and anyone who does deserves death."
...but that's your problem not mine.

I don't have a problem with powers-based exception design, I like the Battlemaster for example with all his melee powers...but I admit it's not very OSR.

I don't have a problem with a Monk in a magical fantasy world having elemental powers, but I admit the influence comes from Anime. (My beef with the Monk is that I think that the 5 Taoist elements would have been a cooler variant and no matter what the influence "Pay 2 Chi and cast Burning Hands" is boring as fuck no matter what the power is called, it's painfully uninspired.)

I freely admit that quick rests and "singing for hit point" mechanics make perfect sense given the overly abstract nature of hit points - but it isn't very OSR.

Classifying something isn't making a value judgment.  I'm not someone who exactly hides my opinions about gaming, there's no need to throw your inferred baggage into my arguments.  Ask me what I hate about 5e, I'll tell you, no need to make yourself look like a jackass through a poor Karnak impersonation.

If the above doesn't apply to you, don't take false offense, if it does, well go fuck yourself.

Quote from: Tyndale;788784I was hoping that this would not be the case as I am personally enamored with Basic.  Is it consensus now that you won't be able to use Basic to run the standard 5E modules?

Supposedly anything the modules have that isn't in Basic is going to be included in the modules themselves.

So will the modules include lots of stuff not in Basic? Yes.  Will you need to buy anything other then the module to make use of them?  So far, No.

Quote from: CRKrueger;788770Basically Batman what you are saying is that 5e is closer to OSR then 3e or 4e, well, I agree with you for the most part.  However, closer to X is not X, which is where I was coming from in reference to the OP.  It's about as OSR as will ever come out of WotC, which still, isn't all that close.

I think we agree on most of that. I think it's easy to get it close enough for government work, though, about as much as say, Blood and Treasure or C&C, both of which I'd consider entirely old-school.

QuoteAnime - Everyone's got cool powers.  Dwarf mages wearing plate mail and casting unlimited magic beams.  PewPewWTFBBQPWNZORZ!  Dungeonpunk.  All that gets rolled into "anime", it sucks, deal with it.  "Anime" gets fucked as a descriptor just as hard as "Pulp" does, but most of the time, despite the term use being incorrect, people still know what you mean by it.  I apologize to Ninja Scroll.

Technically speaking the dwarves will only be casting spells in platemail if they're proficient with it, which if they're mages will cost them not insignificantly in terms of resources. And I'm pretty sure that before, Fighter/Magic-User multiclass characters could cast in armor. So the only new elements in that example are it being a dwarf and unlimited cantrips. Both of which are easily done away with, and the former of which I have never understood the problem with, short of the inertia of tradition.

(To be honest I don't think unlimited cantrips are a problem either, but I know well that I like my magic-users to be a lot more overtly magical than many oldschoolers.)

I do think that the idea that a superheroic feel is some kind of newfangled thing is bizarre considering what's sometimes been called the "Galactic Dragons and Godwars" flavor developed out of OD&D, the oldest of old school D&Ds. On the other hand the OSR has been much more about the Fantasy Fucking Vietnam/"Knaves and Kobolds" side of first-generation gameplay.

Quote from: LibraryLass;788789I do think that the idea that a superheroic feel is some kind of newfangled thing is bizarre considering what's sometimes been called the "Galactic Dragons and Godwars" flavor developed out of OD&D, the oldest of old school D&Ds. On the other hand the OSR has been much more about the Fantasy Fucking Vietnam/"Knaves and Kobolds" side of first-generation gameplay.

Oh there's no doubt the post-name level AD&D could turn into "Deities and Demigods is our Monster Manual", but to be honest you'd have to do a fair amount of Monty Haul to really get there.

The difference is, and this is probably more due to video games then anime, new-school D&D characters start well on the way with special abilities & plenty of buttons to mash right out of the gate, and a healing/wounding system right out of an FPS.

Love it, hate it, whatever...but OSR? Not really, no.