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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Other Games => Topic started by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 04:18:14 PM

Title: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 04:18:14 PM
WotC strikes by race-swapping Aragorn in MtG for the upcoming Lord of the Rings set. "Our Goal Is A Modern Take On The Work Of J.R.R. Tolkien"

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/08/19/wizards-of-the-coast-race-swaps-aragorn-for-magic-the-gatherings-upcoming-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth-set-our-goal-is-a-modern-take-on-the-work-of/

(https://boundingintocomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022.08.20-02.27-boundingintocomics-630046a466d17.png)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Brooding Paladin on August 20, 2022, 04:26:35 PM
When will it end?  This really just goes too far.  Why the need to do this?  I'm all for inclusivity but am equally opposed to revisionism.  It's almost tantamount to saying, "There is no excellent literary work coming out of predominantly African society so we've taken the liberty to make what is dominant more inclusive." 

Who's the racist now?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on August 20, 2022, 04:36:09 PM
  Modern Take = less white people doing awesome shit…other than of course creating the world, setting, and character you are fucking up.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Almost_Useless on August 20, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
"Our Goal Is A Modern Take On The Work Of J.R.R. Tolkien"

'We know this has been popular for nearly 100 years, but we think we can make some improvements.'  I'm having a hard time coming up with a more arrogant 'take' on anything.  Maybe they can take a minute to fix a Picasso or a Dali while they're at it?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Zelen on August 20, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 05:12:36 PM
"The Rings of Power" on Amazon is being obliterated across both aisles for introducing new black characters (among MANY other things). Not even they made Galadriel black. These guys are insane.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 20, 2022, 05:25:47 PM
Must. Change. Everything.
Must. Tear. Down. Everything.
Must. Destroy. Everything.
Must. Rebuild. Everything.....
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Crusader X on August 20, 2022, 05:39:52 PM
Don't give WotC your online casino money.  Ever.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 20, 2022, 06:53:33 PM
So, what will they do with the Black Numenoreans?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Effete on August 20, 2022, 07:08:32 PM
Tolkien is turning in his grave.

Fuck these vandals! Never giving them another cent! In fact... where'd I put my eyepatch?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Visitor Q on August 20, 2022, 07:26:24 PM
In fairness it is WotC so who cares about their take on literally anything?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Effete on August 20, 2022, 07:37:36 PM
In fairness it is WotC so who cares about their take on literally anything?

Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: ForgottenF on August 20, 2022, 07:45:25 PM
So, what will they do with the Black Numenoreans?

I never got the impression the Black Numenoreans were supposed to be ethnically Black. IIRC they're described as dark-haired and swarthy, which sort of implies something like a Mediterranean look (which would make sense, given their pirate aesthetics).
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 20, 2022, 08:06:06 PM
When will it end?  This really just goes too far.  Why the need to do this?  I'm all for inclusivity but am equally opposed to revisionism.  It's almost tantamount to saying, "There is no excellent literary work coming out of predominantly African society so we've taken the liberty to make what is dominant more inclusive." 

Who's the racist now?
Exactly. There are numerous works of Afrofantasy that could be adapted but aren't because racism. If studios refuse to adapt afrofantasy by African-American authors, then studios are racist. White Leftists even write books admitting how they have racism in their DNA, so they don't even pretend they aren't racist.

The leftists I know admit they don't like performative wokeness and are just hoping these shitty products will succeed and somehow inspire studios to go beyond performative wokeness. I think they're grasping at straws. Corpos don't actually care about social justice, they just want money. I would think leftists who rail about capitalist injustices would already know this.

This battle isn't going to be won by corpos that churn out bad product on the cheap. It will be won by black creators like Eric July, who show that original afro-fiction can easily build an audience with some effort and connections.

Studios are just racists who suck the blood of dead white european men like ticks while claiming to hate their hosts.

So, what will they do with the Black Numenoreans?

I never got the impression the Black Numenoreans were supposed to be ethnically Black. IIRC they're described as dark-haired and swarthy, which sort of implies something like a Mediterranean look (which would make sense, given their pirate aesthetics).
It's a bit more complicated than that.
http://theblogthattimeforgot.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-amazons-of-far-harad.html
https://topmovie123free.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-lord-of-rings-series-wild.html

The world of Arda has a deep history and much of it was never explored by Tolkien. You could very easily write a series about how the evil Numenoreans colonized and oppressed the innocent Haradrim, how some Numenoreans went native and became the Corsairs and fought against this colonialism, how Sauron was cannily playing both sides against each other, etc. Not to mention wholly original but appropriate inventions like the titular "Amazons of Far Harad." Arda is easily able to support afrofantasy without revisionism to Middle-Earth, because it has an Africa equivalent (Far Harad) that was never explored.

If the goal is social justice, then just make a series set entirely in Far Harad where there are no white people and the entire cast is black.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Omega on August 20, 2022, 08:58:37 PM
To be fair I felt Bashki gave Aragorn a sort of Native American-esque look. Darkest skinned character amongst the heroes.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: David Johansen on August 20, 2022, 09:58:37 PM
meh who cares?  A game I don't play or buy from a company I don't support for a tired old license from a dead author who wouldn't have green lit a single project from the last 30 years.  I wouldn't have known they had the license if it weren't for this thread. 
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Jaeger on August 20, 2022, 10:38:14 PM
WotC strikes by race-swapping Aragorn in MtG for the upcoming Lord of the Rings set. "Our Goal Is A Modern Take On The Work Of J.R.R. Tolkien"

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/08/19/wizards-of-the-coast-race-swaps-aragorn-for-magic-the-gatherings-upcoming-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth-set-our-goal-is-a-modern-take-on-the-work-of/
...

At this point this is just all a deliberate fuck you.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2022, 11:12:05 PM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/9zQAAOSwJ5ViAzu6/s-l500.jpg)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 11:18:10 PM
meh who cares?  A game I don't play or buy from a company I don't support for a tired old license from a dead author who wouldn't have green lit a single project from the last 30 years.  I wouldn't have known they had the license if it weren't for this thread.

That's not even the right card game to buy if you like Tolkien. The "Lord of the Rings Living Card Game" from Fantasy Flight oozes Tolkien from every rule, is based on adventures to be solved cooperatively by fellowships of characters, has a deep respect for the lore and the art is amazing. This is the usual MtG with a woke Tolkien paint.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Tubesock Army on August 20, 2022, 11:19:21 PM
Yeah, I'm sick of white guys being cast as Jesus!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: David Johansen on August 20, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
I'm tired of Jesus being portayed as a midwestern, Caucasian, professional linebacker with blowdryed aubern hair.

Also, to keep things on gaming, his stat line in Fantasy Wargaming is too weak.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 02:43:58 AM
When will it end?  This really just goes too far.  Why the need to do this?  I'm all for inclusivity but am equally opposed to revisionism.  It's almost tantamount to saying, "There is no excellent literary work coming out of predominantly African society so we've taken the liberty to make what is dominant more inclusive." 

Who's the racist now?

Hasbro has to do it, because they're receiving ESG investment capital from mega-corporations like BlackRock and Vanguard. If they wanna keep receiving a steady flow of NWO bribe money, then it means that they MUST push Critical Race Theory Babylon 2.0 propaganda.

All companies that receive ESG money are REQUIRED to do stuff like this.

People should ask themselves why companies are required to do this.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 21, 2022, 07:04:16 AM
The new management at Warner Discovery has nuked a finished "Batgirl: the Woke". They reasoning? "We can't further damage the brand". Maybe we are reaching the point when being bled white will give some hints.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: VisionStorm on August 21, 2022, 08:00:35 AM
Yeah, I'm sick of white guys being cast as Jesus!

I agree!

Arbitrarily race swapping a contemporary fictional character who's race and appearance are firmly established and broadly recognizable to its target audience is the solution to a fictionalized version of Jesus being portrayed as white by people who didn't know what he looked like hundreds of years after he was dead and his religion was followed almost exclusively by people from that race (at least at the time white depictions of Jesus started cropping up). Those two circumstances and historical contexts are 1:1 equivalent and vandalizing established works to purposefully change things up, as opposed to, you know, providing a more accurate portrayal of Jesus (who, as a Jewish guy would probably have been only a bit darker skinned and haired), is the way to rectify that situation.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 21, 2022, 08:18:02 AM
This thread is not on an RPG subject, so I'm moving it. Also, keep it ON TOPIC, or else.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 21, 2022, 09:42:20 AM
This thread is not on an RPG subject, so I'm moving it. Also, keep it ON TOPIC, or else.

Sorry Pundit. You are right. I originally posted it in the RPG forum because this was announced in the same breath of the new "One D&D" (same Apple-style launch video actually). I guess that "Black Aragorn" can be considered the symbol of the whole nu-WotC mindset. :-\
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2022, 09:58:19 AM
Woooaaah i SO shocked! Woke company makes woke dogshit! What a suprise!
Lets act like publicity! That will really show em!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on August 21, 2022, 10:53:15 AM
Yeah, I'm sick of white guys being cast as Jesus!

  I am pretty sick of white people thinking following Jesus is going to get them anywhere.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2022, 01:48:43 PM
I still want to see an “Amazons of Far Harad” tv show.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: SHARK on August 22, 2022, 12:13:29 AM
Greetings!

Yes, all the Marxism, revisionism, and racism being pushed and promoted by the powers that be--including WOTC in this insulting instance--is designed to demoralize everyone, and bludgeon you over and over into submission.

Just get on your knees, and welcome the ass fucking.

You can sob and grit your teeth, but they want to make you take it, over and over again.

This is what WOTC and others want to do to you, and to every area of culture.

Thankfully, we have the OSR.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 01:56:41 AM
Amazon should make the elves all purple like those in the Hobbit animated film. Boy, they sure were ugly.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: tenbones on August 22, 2022, 08:57:18 AM
Best comment ever: "Shelob will now be called Theylob."

Runnerup: The second expansion set for the series will be called "The Return of the Kangz".
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 09:46:03 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 10:51:51 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
In context it wasn't meant to be racist or homophobic.

In Tolkien's world literal and spiritual light and dark are commonly associated with good and evil, respectively. This probably stems from the fact that humans can't see in the dark, and isn't meant to be a statement about racism. You see a similar symbolism in Dragon Prince, where the Haitian-coded elves of color worship the Sun and associate light and fire with purification; although it isn't explored, I would guess that they associate their own skin color with being burned (like charcoal) and thus purified. There's also Sun-Man (https://www.officialsunman.com/), a black superhero.

Saruman's makeover is supposed to indicate he believes himself the greatest wizard ever, even above his makers, because wizards use color coding to indicate their rank in the order. It's not meant to symbolize that pride colors are evil.

They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.
The irony is that they accuse their opponents of making orcs resemble black people. The projection is strong. (The same people criticize characters like Gamora as racist because she's not real black representation, but a space alien.)

There's no observed correlation (https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/) between using orcs and holding racist attitudes. Racism isn't that subtle.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 22, 2022, 11:35:40 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".

If you think you are joking, this is an official seminary by the Tolkien Society, Summer 2021:

Christopher Vaccaro – Pardoning Saruman?: The Queer in Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings

The Silmarillion is J. R. R. Tolkien’s work in which his Christian upbringing and influence can be seen through the story and the characters. From the song that brings Arda to life to Morgoth’s fall, the book is part of an original pre-history to Middle-Earth and an allegory to Christian’s mythology. In The Lord of the Rings preface, Tolkien comments about the difference between applicability and allegory, and how the reader is free to read it according to his point of view. Therefore this paper aims to read The Silmarillion character Manwë as an archetype of the rightful and lawful leader. For this manner, we will compare him to Xangô, the Orixá from the African-Brazilian religion Umbanda according to the concepts of the archetypal literary criticism. The reason why we trace a comparison between a literary character and an Orixá is to show that archetypes are not reserved to myths, dreams, arts and old religions. Instead, it still lives in our daily lives, especially in religion, even though we can not see it sometimes. Manwë is described as the noblest between the Valar and the one who understands Iluvatar’s purpose. Because of that, he is chosen as the King. He commands the winds and the air and represents justice. In Umbanda, the Orixás represent an aspect of nature and human psychology. Therefore, Xangô represents lightning and thunder, and justice. He is King among the Orixás because he was able to unify all nations. We also can see this archetype in other mythological characters, such as Zeus and Odin. The cultural differences in the archetype representation and the fact that it still is worshipped show us that perhaps the need for a rightful leader is part of the human psyche whether in art or religion.


[If you are wondering where is Saruman in all of this, the answer is: nowhere.]

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 11:45:37 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
In context it wasn't meant to be racist or homophobic.

Yes, I know, but given SJWs' obsessions, these elements from LotR become unintentionally humorous.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on August 22, 2022, 02:56:14 PM
I just find it so weird - Feeling the need to change the cannon as it's already set in stone.

I mean, mid-earth is a big place and there are plenty of opportunities to make YOUR adventures more diverse (if you want). But changing main characters just to tick boxes is utterly bizarre.

But fuck it, why not go the whole hog and just make all the main characters POC? Because they are chicken shits and know the game would fall to bits because only a tiny % would actually buy it if they did. Instead, it just drip-feeds us evil 'crackers' trying to educate us on what's right and wrong (as they perceive it).

But I'm not really that bothered, tbh. As I wouldn't touch 5e with asbestos gloves.

If I wanted a good LoTR game I'd either go for, MERP, Against the Dark Master, Or mess around with one of the OSR games.

Ironically I never thought Aragorn was just a 'white dude'. But WoTC knows far better than the man Tolkien of course.


Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on August 22, 2022, 05:18:05 PM
how long before Orcs are presented as white-skinned?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Persimmon on August 22, 2022, 07:14:05 PM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".

You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.

Update: See the post above!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on August 22, 2022, 07:16:13 PM
You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.
I don't think there were even female orcs at Isengard, and he wanted Gandalf to stay pretty badly.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 08:01:56 PM
You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.
I don't think there were even female orcs at Isengard, and he wanted Gandalf to stay pretty badly.
Tolkien never explored the topic of female orcs beyond saying in a letter that they presumably existed. In the actual books all we ever hear is that Gollum ate a baby goblin offscreen. Perhaps this mystery is intentional on Tolkien's part because he knew that readers would come up with way freakier ideas than if he outright provided explanations himself. Case in point: I recall reading a LotR/GoT crossover fanfic where Saruman and Qyburn physically assemble orcs from assorted body parts a la Frankenstein, which are stated to clone themselves like carrots if planted in fertile soil.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Persimmon on August 22, 2022, 08:47:35 PM
But since Saruman was breeding half-orcs at Isengard, isn't that sufficient evidence that they simply reproduce like other races.  Or might they have been male orcs breeding with female humans?  And given that in several places Tolkien references breeding orcs I think it's safe to say he meant with females without going into the moronic logic employed by the idiots working on the execrable Amazon series.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 09:19:34 PM
But since Saruman was breeding half-orcs at Isengard, isn't that sufficient evidence that they simply reproduce like other races.  Or might they have been male orcs breeding with female humans?  And given that in several places Tolkien references breeding orcs I think it's safe to say he meant with females without going into the moronic logic employed by the idiots working on the execrable Amazon series.
We don't actually know how the creatures were created. Treebeard speculates that they're hybrids, but it's never confirmed.

And before you suggest "Saruman was letting his orc allies rape Dunlending women that he somehow acquired without raising any eyebrows," recall that Morgoth (and to a lesser extent Sauron and Saruman) was by our standards a master geneticist with similar capabilities to b-movie scifi mad scientists but with a fantasy aesthetic. He created demons, dragons, vampires, werewolves, etc. Tolkien wasn't a scifi writer or a geneticist, so obviously he wouldn't have the know-how to articulate that, but I imagine that if he did have the know-how then he would articulate that way. For propriety if nothing else. "Created in vats by mixing the essences of different creatures" sounds way less shlocky and exploitative than "abducting women and putting them on rape farms."

Tolkien is not the sort of writer who writes female characters being tortured or demeaned specifically for being female like a lot of writers do. The closest he comes to that is having a handful of minor female characters whose stories are footnotes in the background be forced to marry against their will (all but stating that they were raped by their husbands (https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/rape-in-tolkiens-middle-earth-part-i/)), but Tolkien never dwells on violence or torture, especially not sexual torture. At one point he specifies that elves spontaneously die if they're sexually assaulted (https://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/48288208579), and since they're immortal this means they can just reincarnate later where it's safe. And the closest he ever comes to the monstrous feminine is Ungoliant, who happens to be one of the single most dangerous beings in the legendarium. Morgoth feared being eaten by her! Ungoliant is female and implied to be the progenitor of the giant spiders (presumably parthenogenically), but her monstrosity comes from being made of darkness and hungering to eat everything rather than any act of giving birth.

Tolkien was a hopeless romantic like that. His experiences in WWI and his marriage informed how he wrote his works. It's a far cry from the torture-porn, rape-as-wallpaper, and misogynistic Handmaid's Tale of Gor-style sick pervert fantasies that characterizes modern fantasy. IMO, we need more men like him, men who aren't ravening sex fiends that hide their misogyny behind wokeness and "but muh realism!".

Sorry for the rant, I just really need to get that off my chest. Again.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on August 22, 2022, 09:22:25 PM
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 09:33:27 PM
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs/Origin

Long story short: Tolkien never settled on a definitive origin while he was alive.

Altho since elves canonically die if sexually assaulted, we can assume that Morgoth either didn't use sexual torture or developed a means to capture and reincarnate elf souls against their will after they died during the course of the experiments.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Persimmon on August 22, 2022, 09:42:09 PM
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?

He kind of goes back and forth on that in the various writings published posthumously by his son.  Those writings also specifically reference breeding.  So yeah, you could go with the mad scientist thing and I think that might be the "origin," but there's plenty of evidence for just the good old fashioned method.  See, in particular, The Peoples of Middle Earth, which is Volume XII of The History of Middle Earth, edited by Christopher Tolkien.

Interestingly, in yet another instance of Amazon getting the lore wrong, they portray Ar-Pharazon with a big beard.  Tolkien stated that the Numenorean men did not have beards, as a racial characteristic.  This is from The Nature of Middle Earth, edited by Carl Hofstetter.  Of course by this logic Aragorn also should not have a beard so Peter Jackson gets docked as well.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 22, 2022, 11:27:33 PM
Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Why? What's going to happen?

If it's bad, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.
If it's okay or merely different, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.
If it's good, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.

It's like you guys forgot how much bitching and moaning there was about Jackson's movies.

As for me, when I saw the thread title, I thought: "What? surely Aragorn can't be an elf?"
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 23, 2022, 12:01:04 PM
Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Why? What's going to happen?

The first teaser back in February being obliterated on Youtube with 128K likes and TWO MILLION dislikes. Then from there things started to go really downhill.

And of course the crown jewel, that Amazon pulled down after, like, 4 hours. Too late.

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 23, 2022, 08:06:29 PM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 24, 2022, 08:37:41 AM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!
Cowboy Bebop (liveaction) and First Kill say hi.

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2022, 12:23:03 PM
What's incredibly offensive about this is that it is implicitly claiming that non-white cultures are inferior and unworthy of mention. They can't even go whole hog and write cultures with European aesthetics but an all-black populace, which would at least avoid the obvious tokenism. We had an entire cartoon like that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happily_Ever_After:_Fairy_Tales_for_Every_Child) back in the 90s, and it was great.

While in theory I agree with the idea of decolonization in the form of reconnecting with one's ancestors and history, as everyone is entitled to that and trying to destroy it is genocide. But this is just colonization and cultural appropriation from the other end. What kind of person thinks so lowly of themselves that they have to rewrite history to feel like they have any self-worth?

Like, I don't mind new writers introducing new nations and characters of Indian (or whatever) descent into the Arthurian mythos (https://medium.com/perceive-more/brown-people-at-the-round-table-dev-patels-green-knight-and-historical-reality-d7a33b0cd6a1). The old stories have plenty of examples, like Prince Feirefiz of Zazamanc. So inventing a new Indian prince OC who travels on a great adventure that ultimately lands him a seat on the Round Table would be perfectly in keeping with the styles of the mythos. Some of his adventures can even be identical to other stories, since as a mythos these stories aren't consistent.

But racebending existing characters feels like both a stunning lack of imagination (OCs are like the first thing that a tween thinks of when doing fanfic and fanart) and petty envy. Whenever I read articles defending racebending of traditionally white characters to non-white, the text often drips with a subtext of envy, pettiness, and vengeful hatred. "We don't want new heroes who are uniquely ours and live alongside your heroes. We want to steal your heroes and destroy your history."
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 25, 2022, 01:51:57 AM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer

The video I linked not a trailer. Try to watch it - I know, it is painful.

Quote
didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

They can't. They spent a billion on it. :D

Quote
People will watch it.

Sure. Who doesn't love a trainwreck?

Quote
And the Tolkien fanboys

...Who, right now are "racist, misogynist incels" - yes, even married black females...

Quote
will watch it multiple times

This is a given: this show will generate memes for decades. I'll see it as soon as it hits the stream. I already have the outline of a Hitler Parody in mind.

Quote
so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it.

They are already doing that under each and every trailer, interview, YouTube video, paid fluff piece on magazines who - lo! - have undisclosed distribution deals with Amazon... Basically, the main point of criticism is "this is fan fiction - and a bad one at that".

Ironically, Reddit is RPG.net in this. The North Korea vibes are strong there.

Quote
And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

...So that more people will obliterate it. My guess is that the premiere will do good numbers, the reviews in MSM will praise it to high heaven, then silence.

Quote
Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for

If so, Amazon has the best publicity ever. They managed to offend everybody: fans, normies, PoC, LGBTQ+... The level of hate this show is getting from every corner of the World (literally) in not simply the highest ever: it is unprecedented.

You haven't a clue about what is happening here, do you?  ;)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on September 28, 2022, 09:54:46 AM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!

  Ratings say you are completely wrong.  You assume nerdfury requires actual viewing of the product to rage out about it.  Bad assumption.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on September 28, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I think Tolkien imagined him as white, the readers generally get that vision as well, but does anyone have a clip of the actual text when Aragorn is first introduced?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Wrath of God on September 28, 2022, 04:26:16 PM
Tolkien described him as white.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Tallifer on September 29, 2022, 07:45:33 AM
Christopher Tolkien closely guarded the legacy of his father, but it seems that the present heirs have less regard. I bet Italian PM and Tolkien superfanGiorgia Meloni prefers the traditional interpretation of Tolkien's works. ;)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 29, 2022, 09:52:55 AM
Do people not know that Far Harad exists? It's the canonical afrofantasy continent of Arda. Sure, Tolkien didn't explore it in his lifetime because he was writing a mythos for England with Middle Earth, but it still exists. You don't need to racebend white characters to meet your representation quota.

I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on September 29, 2022, 06:35:04 PM
Do people not know that Far Harad exists? It's the canonical afrofantasy continent of Arda. Sure, Tolkien didn't explore it in his lifetime because he was writing a mythos for England with Middle Earth, but it still exists. You don't need to racebend white characters to meet your representation quota.

I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.

  there is a group out there MUCH more into erasing euros than elevating afros.  It is far, far easier to destroy than to create.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 17, 2022, 01:16:45 AM


I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.

Yeah, they could make an Imaro movie, but they think that wouldn't be commercially viable enough for them; they need a bigger IP like the Lord of the Rings to blackwash so they can virtue-signal while (hopefully) making lots of money at the same time.

They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 18, 2022, 09:23:58 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Omega on October 18, 2022, 11:44:51 PM
Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.

MIB resembled the comic only barely so its like 90% changes anyhow and race or gender swapping a character has been a thing for a really long time.

The problem I have with the current craze is its not just tokenism, it is hateful tokenism. They spit on those they claim to be 'helping' and they spit on the original authors for their thinly veiled insinuations they 'had to fix it' because the original author was wacist! gasp!

And on and on ad nausium.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2022, 09:27:11 AM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.
Except they used James Earl Jones, who I would listen to if he read a fuckin' phonebook.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 19, 2022, 01:13:57 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.

True.  But liberals at the time criticized the movie for having the villain be a black man.  (Naturally, the fact that two Asian actors were not only main characters but heroes, and the female lead was everything they claim to want in a movie like this, was completely overlooked by them).  Roger Ebert was quite distressed about a white man decapitating a black man, though he did like the movie overall.  So if you think conservatives today are overreacting to blackwashing, fairness dictates that you also criticize liberals for the same thing.  Anyway, what was dumb was the fact that Thulsa Doom isn't even in the Conan stories and was borrowed from Kull, so it's not really disrespecting the source material.  Milius already disrespected it plenty, though he did produce a good movie at least, if not exactly a good Conan movie.  Having a black Aragorn or a white Imaro is most definitely disrespecting the source material, and the changes are pointless to boot.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 20, 2022, 04:49:19 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Anyway, what was dumb was the fact that Thulsa Doom isn't even in the Conan stories and was borrowed from Kull, so it's not really disrespecting the source material.  Milius already disrespected it plenty, though he did produce a good movie at least, if not exactly a good Conan movie.

It sounds like you're OK with disrespecting the source material as long as it produces a good movie, given the example of Milius' Conan movie. And that's basically my position as well.

As for disrespecting the source material and making a bad movie -- well, obviously it's bad. On the other hand, 90% of everything is crap - so I don't necessarily think that it is bad *because* they messed with the source material. Likely, it would still be bad even if they stuck to the source material exactly.


Having a black Aragorn or a white Imaro is most definitely disrespecting the source material, and the changes are pointless to boot.

I can't find any mention of the white Imaro movie you mentioned by search. Do you remember any details about it? I also haven't seen the Magic: The Gathering set from the original post, so I don't know about that.

I'm fine to talk about respecting the source material for stuff that I've seen, but for me it depends a lot on what the overall product is.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 20, 2022, 11:20:28 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Anyway, what was dumb was the fact that Thulsa Doom isn't even in the Conan stories and was borrowed from Kull, so it's not really disrespecting the source material.  Milius already disrespected it plenty, though he did produce a good movie at least, if not exactly a good Conan movie.

It sounds like you're OK with disrespecting the source material as long as it produces a good movie, given the example of Milius' Conan movie. And that's basically my position as well.

As for disrespecting the source material and making a bad movie -- well, obviously it's bad. On the other hand, 90% of everything is crap - so I don't necessarily think that it is bad *because* they messed with the source material. Likely, it would still be bad even if they stuck to the source material exactly.


Having a black Aragorn or a white Imaro is most definitely disrespecting the source material, and the changes are pointless to boot.

I can't find any mention of the white Imaro movie you mentioned by search. Do you remember any details about it? I also haven't seen the Magic: The Gathering set from the original post, so I don't know about that.

I'm fine to talk about respecting the source material for stuff that I've seen, but for me it depends a lot on what the overall product is.

I'll answer the easy one first:  It's a Roger Corman movie called "Amazons."  I first read about the thing in one of Saunders' blog posts about the time that Thor movie with the race-swapped Heimdall came out.  I can't find the original blog post in a web search, but I did come across this Salon article that references it (and predictably thinks Saunders is wrong -- how dare a black man go off the plantation and disagree with his while liberal betters!):

https://www.salon.com/2011/04/20/thor_casting_viking_movies_open2011/

The question about the Conan movie is more complicated, and since I don't want to derail a discussion about Aragorn into one about Conan, I'll try to be brief.  Conan the Barbarian is an outlier -- a movie that may disrespect the source material, but it is not disrespectful of it.  It treats it seriously, it doesn't mock it, everything from the acting to the score to the set design is great.  It's everything the smoking dog-log of a sequel to it was not.  It even got Conan's relationship with Crom right.  Like I said:  it's a good movie, it's just not a good Conan movie.  I don't forgive it for not being a Conan movie, it's just that I give it credit for doing what it does so well.  Usually movies that venture that far from their source material are utter trash; this one is not.   I just try to forget that it's about Conan when I watch it, just like I try to forget that Braveheart is about Sir William Wallace.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 21, 2022, 02:56:11 AM
I'll answer the easy one first:  It's a Roger Corman movie called "Amazons."  I first read about the thing in one of Saunders' blog posts about the time that Thor movie with the race-swapped Heimdall came out.  I can't find the original blog post in a web search, but I did come across this Salon article that references it (and predictably thinks Saunders is wrong -- how dare a black man go off the plantation and disagree with his while liberal betters!):

https://www.salon.com/2011/04/20/thor_casting_viking_movies_open2011/

Thanks. It's apparently based on a Saunders short story, "Agbewe's Sword," which appeared in Jessica Amanda Salmonson's anthology, Amazons!, in the late 1970s. It's not in the collected Imaro stories, and I'm not clear if Imaro even appears in it. Saunders mentions it in this source:

https://differentdrumming.com/mistaken-identity

But it was about African characters that Saunders was asked to rewrite as white, which he hated.

Like I said:  it's a good movie, it's just not a good Conan movie.  I don't forgive it for not being a Conan movie, it's just that I give it credit for doing what it does so well.  Usually movies that venture that far from their source material are utter trash; this one is not.   I just try to forget that it's about Conan when I watch it, just like I try to forget that Braveheart is about Sir William Wallace.

I'm ambivalent about this. I think a lot of movies are better for straying far from the source material - like Men in Black or The Wiz, to take some examples. Obviously this is highly subjective. Film is a very different medium from novels, and what works in one often doesn't work in another.

Regarding Thor -- the MCU films are very far from the original comics they were inspired by, which I thought generally worked well, compared to some closer adaptations of comics.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 22, 2022, 12:54:46 AM
Thanks for the Saunders correction.  I was misremembering when I thought it was Imaro, obviously.  I remember some of Saunders' original blog, in which he said he wasn't happy about the changes, but frankly he needed the money so he accepted the deal.  I respect Saunders because instead of latching on to somebody else's creation and whining about how it didn't suit him and he was going to set out to "correct" it, he did what so many of us here advocate -- he created his own thing instead.  I think it's pretty telling that so many of us "right-wing white supremacist Nazis" here are at least aware of his work while the douchebag in that Black Gate article apparently never heard of him.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 23, 2022, 12:43:29 AM
I respect Saunders because instead of latching on to somebody else's creation and whining about how it didn't suit him and he was going to set out to "correct" it, he did what so many of us here advocate -- he created his own thing instead.  I think it's pretty telling that so many of us "right-wing white supremacist Nazis" here are at least aware of his work while the douchebag in that Black Gate article apparently never heard of him.

Oliver Brackenbury from the Black Gate article created his own fiction magazine and is publishing original new stories in it. So he is creating his own thing. As far as I can see, none of the stories in issue #0 are adaptations.

There are plenty of other differences, but the core thing Brackenbury is doing seems exactly like what Saunders did - new stories that feature non-white characters and themes in otherwise the same genre as previous stories. I don't even see that much difference in how they talk about what they are doing. Here is the start and end of an essay from Saunders, for example:

Quote
"Die, Black Dog!"
A Look at Racism in Fantasy Literature

For an avid reader of fantasy who happens to be black, the exclamation in the title of this essay pops up far too often for comfort. The genre-related problems of reader identification and suspension of disbelief become immeasurably magnified with these words, because the ethnic epithets that spew from the mouth of a Conan are all-too-well represented in the grim world of reality. When blatant racism does occur in a fantasy tale, the black reader is rudely jerked from its escapist world. And when the escapism dies, so does the story.

Even a cursory examination of the roots of today’s fantasy reveals a great deal about the ethnic attitudes of some of its pioneering authors. I refer, of course, to the Unholy Trinity of the Golden Age of the Pulps: Howard, Lovecraft, and Smith. Though pure fantasy can be traced back to Homer, the sword-and-sorcery that is popular today was born in the pages of Weird Tales. Unfortunately, these beginnings were steeped in racism, as is every other American institution.
Quote
And that brings me to the point of answering the question that those who are still reading this must be asking by now; “If you don’t like it, why in Crom's name don't you stop reading it? But I do like fantasy. It is my favorite form of literature. What I don't like is the racism in it.

Being a black fantasy buff can be a somewhat schizoid existence. It is another instance of cognitive dissonance. On one hand, I often feel like killing certain authors, even while I'm enjoying their stories. On the other, I sometimes feel that the wonder, the excitement, the sheer unreality of fantasy may transcend the attitudes of its authors. That I can still enjoy it despite occasional outbursts of rage and disgust is a tribute to the genre -- a tribute I'm still not certain it deserves...
Source: http://www.reindeermotel.com/CHARLES/charles_blog42_dieblackdog.html

So Saunders didn't like the racism he saw in fantasy, and so he wrote his own stories that changed it.

But then, I also don't have a problem with people like Milius who adapt others' work, even though it is stretched far from the original. I have enjoyed many loosely adapted movies like Conan, Men in Black, and The Wiz.

What I dislike is purely negative criticizing and whining. I prefer showing examples of what one likes - or better yet, helping create such.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on October 23, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
  He can make whatever he wants IMO...but...he uses the term "fellow whites" in a sentence and becomes a literal meme.  Using language like that is from a position of agenda and not simple create something new.  I am not whining I am just point out a "fellow" who might not be a fellow trying to use that as some odd way to legitimize his criticism of a genre.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 23, 2022, 08:23:51 AM
I don't argue that Brackenbury didn't create his own thing -- I argue that he's ignorant.  Didn't even mention Saunders, for just one example.  And I don't think Saunders saw any "racism" in traditional fantasy -- do you have proof that he did?  Because he wanted to write about black people who "looked like him" doesn't mean he only did it to strike a blow against The Man.  Because he was interested in traditional African folklore doesn't mean he had a beef with white people interested in their own culture.   If REH or other writers had ever written a non-white as a main character, SJWs would have accused them of cultural appropriation; if they stick to white protagonists, they're racist.  As another poster on this board wisely observed (and I'm sorry I can't remember who it was so I can give proper credit), when it comes to dealing with SJWs, the only way to win is not to play.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 23, 2022, 11:39:53 AM
I don't argue that Brackenbury didn't create his own thing -- I argue that he's ignorant.  Didn't even mention Saunders, for just one example.  And I don't think Saunders saw any "racism" in traditional fantasy -- do you have proof that he did?  Because he wanted to write about black people who "looked like him" doesn't mean he only did it to strike a blow against The Man.

I just quoted from his essay. I think you missed it. I'll post again for clarity, and I'd invite you to read the full essay in the source link.

Quote from: Charles Saunders
"Die, Black Dog!"
A Look at Racism in Fantasy Literature

For an avid reader of fantasy who happens to be black, the exclamation in the title of this essay pops up far too often for comfort. The genre-related problems of reader identification and suspension of disbelief become immeasurably magnified with these words, because the ethnic epithets that spew from the mouth of a Conan are all-too-well represented in the grim world of reality. When blatant racism does occur in a fantasy tale, the black reader is rudely jerked from its escapist world. And when the escapism dies, so does the story.

Even a cursory examination of the roots of today’s fantasy reveals a great deal about the ethnic attitudes of some of its pioneering authors. I refer, of course, to the Unholy Trinity of the Golden Age of the Pulps: Howard, Lovecraft, and Smith. Though pure fantasy can be traced back to Homer, the sword-and-sorcery that is popular today was born in the pages of Weird Tales. Unfortunately, these beginnings were steeped in racism, as is every other American institution.
Quote from: Charles Saunders
And that brings me to the point of answering the question that those who are still reading this must be asking by now; “If you don’t like it, why in Crom's name don't you stop reading it? But I do like fantasy. It is my favorite form of literature. What I don't like is the racism in it.

Being a black fantasy buff can be a somewhat schizoid existence. It is another instance of cognitive dissonance. On one hand, I often feel like killing certain authors, even while I'm enjoying their stories. On the other, I sometimes feel that the wonder, the excitement, the sheer unreality of fantasy may transcend the attitudes of its authors. That I can still enjoy it despite occasional outbursts of rage and disgust is a tribute to the genre -- a tribute I'm still not certain it deserves...

Source: http://www.reindeermotel.com/CHARLES/charles_blog42_dieblackdog.html

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 24, 2022, 10:54:39 AM
OK, I stand corrected on Saunders.  You are obviously more informed on this subject than I am.  I see he wasn't immune to squealing "racism" every time he saw an author like REH writing about people his own color.  Good thing they didn't write about non-white heroes too, or Saunders would have been squealing about cultural appropriation as well.  I now think quite a bit less of him.  Thanks for the tip-off; I do appreciate it.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 24, 2022, 12:41:44 PM
OK, I stand corrected on Saunders.  You are obviously more informed on this subject than I am.  I see he wasn't immune to squealing "racism" every time he saw an author like REH writing about people his own color.  Good thing they didn't write about non-white heroes too, or Saunders would have been squealing about cultural appropriation as well.  I now think quite a bit less of him.  Thanks for the tip-off; I do appreciate it.

You're welcome. More information is always better. In fairness to Saunders, though, I feel I should also quote some of the things that R.E. Howard wrote about race in real life. In reference to a trial in Honolulu where native Hawaiians were accused of rape, he wrote:

Quote from: R.E. Howard
I know what would have happened to them in Texas.  I don’t know whether an Oriental smells any different than a nigger when he’s roasting, but I’m willing to bet the aroma of scorching hide would have the same chastening effect on his surviving tribesman.

He also wrote to Novalyne Price saying,

Quote from: R.E. Howard
“[…] I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town.  Chances are they might tar and feather him.”

and after a negative reaction, he returned,

Quote from: R.E. Howard
“Let me tell you something, girl, that you don’t seem to know.  Those people come from a different line.  They have different blood - ”

To add, here is the start of his story entitled "The Last White Man",

Quote from: R.E. Howard
THE MAN SHIVERED in the coolness of the early morning. He shifted his body to relieve the pressure on his elbows.

Cautiously he peered up over the great boulder in front of him, and down the mountain side. Fire twinkled there and the man cursed. An obscene song floated up to him and his curses deepened. The song was in a rich, guttural voice.

The man was a wonder, physically. Over six feet in height, his chest and shoulders were those of a giant. Weighing far over two hundred pounds, he yet gave the impression of sinuous speed. His face was sullen, savage, almost primitive, small black eyes glittering through tangled strands of sandy hair. In one hand he clutched a rifle. A curved scimitar of surprising proportions lay beside him.

He was a splendid example of a wonderful race. A race which reached physical perfection, sank to the depths of degeneracy and then regained the heights just before their fall. He was the last. He was thinking as he lay there, watching the camps of his enemies.

What heights his race had reached before luxuries, idleness and pleasures had sapped their might; had made of them a race of degenerate weaklings. He cursed beneath his breath.

There had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.
cf. https://archive.org/details/howard-collector-05-1964-summer/page/22/mode/2up

And to add a few quotes from later in the story:

Quote from: R.E. Howard
At first the white race held its own.

But not for long. The blacks were physical giants, mighty fighting organisms, whose highest wish was slaughter and plunder.

That century long warfare! The man thrilled with a savage pride as he reviewed the wonderful battle the whites gave, overwhelmed as they were with odds of a hundred to one.
...
Quote from: R.E. Howard
The last white man laughed with savage, unholy glee.

The black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons.

They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It was dawning. The last white man looked about him; gathered his weapons. The rush would soon come.

The story isn't very long - you can read the full text at my link. There are plenty of other writings and stories where Howard shows his thoughts on race. These are just a sampling.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 25, 2022, 01:07:00 PM
OK, I stand corrected on Saunders.  You are obviously more informed on this subject than I am.  I see he wasn't immune to squealing "racism" every time he saw an author like REH writing about people his own color.  Good thing they didn't write about non-white heroes too, or Saunders would have been squealing about cultural appropriation as well.  I now think quite a bit less of him.  Thanks for the tip-off; I do appreciate it.

Hey, I.

To be clear - I didn't mean to shut down conversation, and I didn't intend any offense against you. I have also greatly enjoyed many of R.E. Howard's stories, and I ran a number of Conan games. Here's notes on one, for example:

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/

But despite enjoying his writings, I am opposed to his racial attitudes.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 17, 2023, 08:48:01 AM
Welp,

turns out its not JUST Aragorn. Now its also Éowyn and Galadriel too. The fuckers at WotC who did this are slime of the highest sort but are about to discover they messed with the wrong franchise. My guess is that a large part of this set is gonna end up in landfills across the US....
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ghostmaker on March 17, 2023, 10:25:02 AM
Welp,

turns out its not JUST Aragorn. Now its also Éowyn and Galadriel too. The fuckers at WotC who did this are slime of the highest sort but are about to discover they messed with the wrong franchise. My guess is that a large part of this set is gonna end up in landfills across the US....
Linkage?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 19, 2023, 04:14:27 AM
Linkage?

(https://media.wizards.com/2023/images/daily/en_JndpldH6Ritb.png)

(https://media.wizards.com/2023/images/daily/en_kCCvUlVbOXgn.png)

(https://media.wizards.com/2023/images/daily/en_scILR5uHfvG9.png)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: crkrueger on March 20, 2023, 05:38:05 AM
The sad thing about race-swapping is, you still have mostly white people making the decisions, and doing the creating, so they’re not going to create great new black, brown, yellow or red IP.

A black Aragorn is a stupid and meaningless virtue signaling gesture, made by upscale honkeys.  Give me a black hero to rival Aragorn, and make the color of his skin the least of his virtues.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 20, 2023, 11:14:21 AM
The sad thing about race-swapping is, you still have mostly white people making the decisions, and doing the creating, so they’re not going to create great new black, brown, yellow or red IP.

In any other context, what the scum at WotC did would be classified as blackface. And honestly, at this point, that's all I can think of it as: modern blackface by nitwits who couldn't be trusted to pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Spinachcat on March 20, 2023, 06:56:54 PM
Seattle needs a nuke.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on March 20, 2023, 08:25:45 PM
Given that Arwen is Galadriel's granddaughter, it seems that the choices of who got race-swapped and how were not thought through very thoroughly.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 21, 2023, 12:29:10 AM
Seattle needs a nuke.

Well, it might improve the property values...
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: crkrueger on March 21, 2023, 09:43:01 PM
Given that Arwen is Galadriel's granddaughter, it seems that the choices of who got race-swapped and how were not thought through very thoroughly.

Bro, you know no one at WotC believes in Genetics.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2023, 07:49:59 AM
The sad thing about race-swapping is, you still have mostly white people making the decisions, and doing the creating, so they’re not going to create great new black, brown, yellow or red IP.

I've started calling it "White leftovers".
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: silencio789 on March 22, 2023, 05:50:52 PM
I don't remember anyone's skin colour being mentioned in Tolkien.
Given that Tolkien was a strong anti apartheid campaigner, so quite opposed to racial segregation or defining people by race then I am not really sure where you are coming from.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: DocJones on March 22, 2023, 06:37:30 PM
I don't remember anyone's skin colour being mentioned in Tolkien.
Given that Tolkien was a strong anti apartheid campaigner, so quite opposed to racial segregation or defining people by race then I am not really sure where you are coming from.
The Haradrim were described as swarthy and brown.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: silencio789 on March 22, 2023, 06:52:54 PM
And so were Frenchmen in 19th century novels.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on March 22, 2023, 07:55:07 PM
I don't remember anyone's skin colour being mentioned in Tolkien.
Given that Tolkien was a strong anti apartheid campaigner, so quite opposed to racial segregation or defining people by race then I am not really sure where you are coming from.

Tolkien did describe skin color at a number of points in his works - along with other features like hair color, eyes, and so forth - though not always. So from a purism standpoint, it is incorrect.

On the other hand, there are lots of things that aren't off in adaptations that are often overlooked. In the movies, Frodo was cast as a teenager when he was a 50-year-old man in the books. It was brought up as a technicality, but almost no one got upset over it. We didn't see threads over "age-swapping" of Frodo.

The core issue is that some people see skin tone changes as racial bias against white people -- just as historically many have complained of pro-white bias when casting white actors as previously non-white characters - from Charlie Chan to Legend of Earthsea.

I think it's too often knee-jerk reaction either way. For example, some people complained about yellowface in the movie Cloud Atlas -- but that was a case where many actors were cast either way across type, so I didn't have a problem with it. Adaptations often make changes to the original like age-swapped Frodo, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. I haven't seen the MtG sets in general, so I don't have an opinion here.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: SHARK on March 22, 2023, 08:01:47 PM
Greetings!

More anti-white racism. It is designed purposefully to denigrate and mock white men, white strength, white values, and white heroes--and replace them with black men. Or women. It is all a table full of Woke BS. Virtually anyone or anything is better, and more noble, than white men. White culture must be destroyed. Part of that ambition is also calibrated to always showing the white women hooking up with black men, or becoming lesbians, or whatever.

All of this is also, not coincidentally, inspired from Marxism. It is all designed to demoralize an entire society, to emotionally exhaust them, and break them down, and cause divisions. This makes them all weaker and more ready to just get on their knees and accept the slave yoke to the Marxist/Globalist super-state.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 22, 2023, 08:42:57 PM
I don't remember anyone's skin colour being mentioned in Tolkien.

I'm sorry, what were you wrong about?

Quote
Frodo found that Strider was now looking at him, as if he had heard or guessed all that had been said. Presently, with a wave of his hand and a nod, he invited Frodo to come over and sit by him. As Frodo drew near be threw back his hood, showing a shaggy head of dark hair necked with grey, and in a pale stem face a pair of keen grey eyes.
- At the Sign of The Prancing Pony, The Lord of the Rings
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2023, 09:46:51 PM
I don't remember anyone's skin colour being mentioned in Tolkien.
Given that Tolkien was a strong anti apartheid campaigner, so quite opposed to racial segregation or defining people by race then I am not really sure where you are coming from.

Tolkien did describe skin color at a number of points in his works - along with other features like hair color, eyes, and so forth - though not always. So from a purism standpoint, it is incorrect.

On the other hand, there are lots of things that aren't off in adaptations that are often overlooked. In the movies, Frodo was cast as a teenager when he was a 50-year-old man in the books. It was brought up as a technicality, but almost no one got upset over it. We didn't see threads over "age-swapping" of Frodo.

Hobbit. Not a man. From the parts in the book that describe age in hobbits, it seems they have longer lifespans, like Dwarves but probably not as long.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 22, 2023, 09:51:22 PM
I don't remember anyone's skin colour being mentioned in Tolkien.
Given that Tolkien was a strong anti apartheid campaigner, so quite opposed to racial segregation or defining people by race then I am not really sure where you are coming from.

Because the choice to "leftover" Aragorn is driven by white racism. Let a white person establish the role, and then give the crumbs to the "people of color".
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: silencio789 on March 23, 2023, 06:06:59 AM
Agreed... although I realise you may have been sarcastic.

I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.

This need not be the same at all times nor statistically accurate on a piece by piece, indeed it is very likely to need to not be so and do over represent  and under represent.
It need not lead to special measures in the field of drama/art/literature, there are many talented creators who come from a wide range of backgrounds.
It need not mean all creations are wholly mixed and heterogenous, many of us still live in quite homogenous societies and circles. It also does not have to reflect society, it can be aspirational and dystopian..

What it has needed is change and an acceptance that the previous dominance by the assumptions of who should be seen/read/heard can and will change either by natural organic shift, or by struggle if necessary.

Seattle needs a nuke.
And you really think this is an acceptable comment?


All of this is also, not coincidentally, inspired from Marxism. It is all designed to demoralize an entire society, to emotionally exhaust them, and break them down, and cause divisions. This makes them all weaker and more ready to just get on their knees and accept the slave yoke to the Marxist/Globalist super-state.


Have you ever read Marx?

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: silencio789 on March 23, 2023, 06:08:09 AM
.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: silencio789 on March 23, 2023, 06:09:31 AM
.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: silencio789 on March 23, 2023, 06:10:44 AM
.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Armchair Gamer on March 23, 2023, 07:12:30 AM
Hobbit. Not a man. From the parts in the book that describe age in hobbits, it seems they have longer lifespans, like Dwarves but probably not as long.

   Hobbit 33 is the equivalent of human 18-21, Frodo stopped aging when he took possession of the Ring (Book 1, Chapter 2 makes this quite clear), and the Jackson adaptation drops the 17 years between "A Long-Expected Party" and the main action. :)

   Also, illustrations are not movies are not plays--certain media require or permit changes and compromises that feel gratuitous or heavy-handed in others.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on March 23, 2023, 11:50:25 AM
Hobbit. Not a man. From the parts in the book that describe age in hobbits, it seems they have longer lifespans, like Dwarves but probably not as long.

   Hobbit 33 is the equivalent of human 18-21, Frodo stopped aging when he took possession of the Ring (Book 1, Chapter 2 makes this quite clear), and the Jackson adaptation drops the 17 years between "A Long-Expected Party" and the main action. :)

   Also, illustrations are not movies are not plays--certain media require or permit changes and compromises that feel gratuitous or heavy-handed in others.

OK, I'll grant 33 being more like 18-21, though dropping 17 years out of his life seems like another way of saying "age-swapping". To be clear, I think it's a fine artistic choice - but it's a noticeable difference from the books.

As further examples, the MCU casting non-white actors for parts like Fury, Hogun, and Heimdall got a lot of attention -- but there were huge sweeping changes in a ton of the comic background beyond this.

---

In general I agree illustrations aren't movies or plays. But if anything, I expect hand-drawn illustrations to be more stylized than in a live-action adaptation, and I expect less literalness and more artistic license. Tolkien has been adapted to death for seventy years. At this point, I expect non-literal adaptations, rather than having things match his text descriptions.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 23, 2023, 11:03:40 PM
.....
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 24, 2023, 01:32:15 AM
Agreed... although I realise you may have been sarcastic.

Not at all. I think a lot of racism drives these decisions, and they're coming from people claiming to be fighting racism.

Quote
I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.

This need not be the same at all times nor statistically accurate on a piece by piece, indeed it is very likely to need to not be so and do over represent  and under represent.
It need not lead to special measures in the field of drama/art/literature, there are many talented creators who come from a wide range of backgrounds.
It need not mean all creations are wholly mixed and heterogenous, many of us still live in quite homogenous societies and circles. It also does not have to reflect society, it can be aspirational and dystopian..

I agree. In another situation, I would not care about a black Aragorn. But in this time and place, I think it's a racist choice, driven by hateful people.

Quote
What it has needed is change and an acceptance that the previous dominance by the assumptions of who should be seen/read/heard can and will change either by natural organic shift, or by struggle if necessary.

Not by racists. They can suck the sweat from my balls. And a lot of people are seeing through their bullshit.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: SHARK on March 24, 2023, 02:26:09 AM
Agreed... although I realise you may have been sarcastic.

I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.

This need not be the same at all times nor statistically accurate on a piece by piece, indeed it is very likely to need to not be so and do over represent  and under represent.
It need not lead to special measures in the field of drama/art/literature, there are many talented creators who come from a wide range of backgrounds.
It need not mean all creations are wholly mixed and heterogenous, many of us still live in quite homogenous societies and circles. It also does not have to reflect society, it can be aspirational and dystopian..

What it has needed is change and an acceptance that the previous dominance by the assumptions of who should be seen/read/heard can and will change either by natural organic shift, or by struggle if necessary.

Seattle needs a nuke.
And you really think this is an acceptable comment?


All of this is also, not coincidentally, inspired from Marxism. It is all designed to demoralize an entire society, to emotionally exhaust them, and break them down, and cause divisions. This makes them all weaker and more ready to just get on their knees and accept the slave yoke to the Marxist/Globalist super-state.


Have you ever read Marx?

Greetings!

Yeah, I've read Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Stalin, and Mao.
I've also read Alinsky, and "Rules For Radicals."

Have you listened to Yuri Bezhmenov?

All of the Woke Libtard propaganda is inspired by Marxism. Yuri Bezhmenov describes in his interviews--from over 40 years ago--the Communist strategies of infiltrating societies, and all of the institutions targeted, corrupted, and destroyed. Dividing societies along racial, class, and ideological lines, sowing confusion, disinformation, and cultivating culture-wide *Demoralization*. This entire program of propaganda, division, corruption, and demoralization--is purposely designed to weaken and destroy the culture as a whole, and make the population weak, and more psychologically prepared to embrace Marxist tyranny and control. The targeting and destruction of the Family; the Church; the infiltration of academia and the media; spreading outwards, gradually corrupting every major institution and power source within the culture. Saturating the culture with propaganda, "New-speak"--corrupting language, twisting definitions of words--and making up entirely new words. Bathing everyone in Marxist ideas, and political thought. Then, the infiltration of the political class. The culture is corrupted, polluted, and a hollowed out, broken husk, ripe for conquest, or merely a pathetic shadow of its former self.

Corrupting all of our arts and entertainment, our media, is all part of that same process.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Trond on March 24, 2023, 07:51:21 AM
Greetings!

More anti-white racism. It is designed purposefully to denigrate and mock white men, white strength, white values, and white heroes--and replace them with black men. Or women……

Disney is race swapping Snow White, let that sink in. 😄
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: DocJones on March 24, 2023, 01:50:54 PM
I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.
I'll believe that when I see Tom Hanks starring as Shaft and Samuel Jackson starring as Simon Legree.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: DocJones on March 24, 2023, 02:19:36 PM
Greetings!

More anti-white racism. It is designed purposefully to denigrate and mock white men, white strength, white values, and white heroes--and replace them with black men. Or women……

Disney is race swapping Snow White, let that sink in. 😄
It's a shame that we'll never see Scarlet Johansson as Foxy Brown, because it only swaps one way. 

"She's brown sugar and spice
but if you don't treat her nice
she'll put you on ice!"
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on March 24, 2023, 02:34:32 PM
Disney is race swapping Snow White, let that sink in. 😄
It's a shame that we'll never see Scarlet Johansson as Foxy Brown, because it only swaps one way.

I mean, we saw Johansson starring as Motoko Kusanagi just a few years ago.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on March 24, 2023, 02:39:32 PM
I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.

This need not be the same at all times nor statistically accurate on a piece by piece, indeed it is very likely to need to not be so and do over represent  and under represent.

I agree. In another situation, I would not care about a black Aragorn. But in this time and place, I think it's a racist choice, driven by hateful people.

Regarding the MtG set, I don't have it and don't know anything about the creators - so I don't necessarily disagree. But there have been a lot of other mixed race portrayals that I've seen.

I mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: DocJones on March 24, 2023, 02:56:36 PM
Disney is race swapping Snow White, let that sink in. 😄
It's a shame that we'll never see Scarlet Johansson as Foxy Brown, because it only swaps one way.

I mean, we saw Johansson starring as Motoko Kusanagi just a few years ago.
That's allowed because the Japanese are as horrible as white people. 
You should know that. ;-)

What would happen if they race swapped Rosie Grier and Ray Milland?
(http://unratedfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/The-Thing-With-Two-Heads.jpg)

We were conquering racism in the 70's and I remember the 1980's when racism was almost dead
...until Obama and the progressives democrats brought it back in 2009.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2023, 12:26:41 AM
Disney is race swapping Snow White, let that sink in. 😄
It's a shame that we'll never see Scarlet Johansson as Foxy Brown, because it only swaps one way.

I mean, we saw Johansson starring as Motoko Kusanagi just a few years ago.

A particularly bad example, since GITS dwells on identity and souls in a future with artificial bodies.

Quote
Since she has a full cybernetic body, she is not certain her ghost - her soul - retains any humanity. In fact, she speculates on the possibility that she's entirely synthetic, with artificially generated memories designed to fool her into thinking she was once human.

https://ghostintheshell.fandom.com/wiki/Motoko_Kusanagi
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 25, 2023, 12:33:12 AM
I think drama is not simulation but will and should reflect the society performing it, and indeed may be more about that society than the original creators could have imagined.

We should cast a mix of people in our dramas since we are a society of mixed peoples.

This need not be the same at all times nor statistically accurate on a piece by piece, indeed it is very likely to need to not be so and do over represent  and under represent.

I agree. In another situation, I would not care about a black Aragorn. But in this time and place, I think it's a racist choice, driven by hateful people.

Regarding the MtG set, I don't have it and don't know anything about the creators - so I don't necessarily disagree. But there have been a lot of other mixed race portrayals that I've seen.

I mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Wheetaye on March 25, 2023, 12:39:30 PM
For those who don't play Magic, the in-game universe is a multiverse, composed of thousands of separate planes of existence, with only a few special individuals (planeswalkers) able to travel between them. For the most part, each set of cards is set in one of these planes. About half of the sets released so far are set in planes explicitly based on real world mythologies, fables, and stories from a particular culture. Thus far, none of the sets takes place on a plane inspired by sub-Saharan African cultures and mythologies (one plane is based on Egyptian myths). The same is true for Native American myths (one plane has a continent based on Aztec culture, but the set also had a faction of vampires inspired by Spanish conquistadors, so we didn't have a set entirely devoted to them). There are dozens of planes mentioned or visited briefly in the lore, so such a plane might very well exist, but I couldn't find one, nor has a full set been made of one.
In addition, planes based on European myths will often have native characters resembling sub-Saharan Africans, while planes based on other myths will not (except perhaps for planeswalkers visiting from other planes, i.e. not natives).
I could be wrong about that second part, but I'm fairly certain. I played a lot of games in the Tarkir set (based on east Asian cultures), and took a look through the catalogue of cards from Kamigawa (Japan). The only black person I could find in the latter one was Tezzeret, a planeswalker from a different plane.

What was the point of bringing all this up?

When the first Kamigawa set came out, all the way back in 2004, Wizards caught some flak for making the lore of the setting too close to real world cultures, with many accusing them of insensitivity. Specifically, the story focuses on conflict between mortals and spirits, based heavily in Shintoism, which is still practiced by people today.
Despite their claims to wanting to promote diversity and inclusion, I don't believe WotC will produce a set based and focused on fantasy representation of sub-Saharan African or Native American myths. The reason for this is that any attempt to do so will be met with cries of racism and misrepresentation from far-left wokescolds. It won't matter how many cultural consultants they hire, something will ruffle someone's jimmies, and they'll stir up a shit-storm. Actually, it wouldn't matter if their representation was perfect, because:
A) wokescolds will look for things to be offended by
B) in order to create an interesting world with conflict, someone will have to be the bad guy, or represent evil and malicious forces in the world. These factions and cards will be accused of promoting negative stereotypes of whatever ethnic group the set is based on.

There's one way they can do it though, and I've already mentioned an example of how. If they make the central conflict if the story invasion from a culture based on Europeans, who can then be the bad guys. In Ixalan, the Aztec inspired Sun Empire does not, to my knowledge, perform human sacrifices or raids on weaker tribes (if they do, it isn't represented or referenced heavily). Meanwhile, the Spanish inspired vampires have come over to this continent to retake a McGuffin. To be fair, they aren't categorically evil, and the thing they want was theirs originally (stolen and relocated by a planeswalker, not the Sun Empire), but in the end they are invading another continent.
I believe this is the method WotC will go with if they ever do make an African or American inspired plane. Magic sets always have some central conflict with 4+ factions. By adding European inspired invaders, they can avoid having one of the native factions be antagonistic, malicious, or demonic (there's usually one or more).

Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 25, 2023, 12:54:30 PM
I mean, we saw Johansson starring as Motoko Kusanagi just a few years ago.

 ::)

Well, I can tell YOU'VE never actually seen Ghost in the Shell. Kusanagi's full body combat prosthesis was NOT designed to look Asian. That was purposely expounded upon in the Oshii movie in 1995. She has black hair, light skin, blue eyes and they're NOT with epicanthic folds. An EXACT model of her shell is what The Puppet Master dived into and its blonde haired and blue eyed.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFH29nWYAc9B3v?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsFH29mXoAQshPa?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on March 26, 2023, 02:56:12 AM
OK, fair points about Ghost in the Shell. It was indeed a bad example. I made an off-the-cuff post that popped to mind when Johansson was mentioned. Sorry about that.

Keeping on Lord of the Rings...

Quote from: jhkim
I mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.

I've seen it. I think calling a lack of creativity is fair. However, uncreative isn't the same thing as racist. I have heard complaints about hating white people, but here, the vast majority of the heroes are white - Galadriel, Elrond, Durin, Gandalf, and the harfoot Nori.

What's known as color-blind casting was introduced decades ago in theater and film, starting with Shakespeare and opera companies giving some token roles to non-white actors while retelling the same traditional European stories. I don't see the practice as racist against white people, nor do I see it as especially progressive.


I believe this is the method WotC will go with if they ever do make an African or American inspired plane. Magic sets always have some central conflict with 4+ factions. By adding European inspired invaders, they can avoid having one of the native factions be antagonistic, malicious, or demonic (there's usually one or more).

Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.

I haven't seen this MtG set, but this does sound probable. I would phrase it more that they think that the mixed-race Lord of the Rings set will make more money than a dedicated African or Native American themed set. It's an uncreative approach - but then creativity isn't always what sells best. Tolkien isn't dull inherently, but he's been done to death umpteen times, so any straight adaptation isn't likely creative. Having characters be a mix of races is also old hat from decades of color-blind casting as an occasional option in theater and film.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: crkrueger on March 26, 2023, 06:49:07 AM
OK, fair points about Ghost in the Shell. It was indeed a bad example. I made an off-the-cuff post that popped to mind when Johansson was mentioned. Sorry about that.

Keeping on Lord of the Rings...

Quote from: jhkim
I mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.

I've seen it. I think calling a lack of creativity is fair. However, uncreative isn't the same thing as racist. I have heard complaints about hating white people, but here, the vast majority of the heroes are white - Galadriel, Elrond, Durin, Gandalf, and the harfoot Nori.

What's known as color-blind casting was introduced decades ago in theater and film, starting with Shakespeare and opera companies giving some token roles to non-white actors while retelling the same traditional European stories. I don't see the practice as racist against white people, nor do I see it as especially progressive.


I believe this is the method WotC will go with if they ever do make an African or American inspired plane. Magic sets always have some central conflict with 4+ factions. By adding European inspired invaders, they can avoid having one of the native factions be antagonistic, malicious, or demonic (there's usually one or more).

Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.

I haven't seen this MtG set, but this does sound probable. I would phrase it more that they think that the mixed-race Lord of the Rings set will make more money than a dedicated African or Native American themed set. It's an uncreative approach - but then creativity isn't always what sells best. Tolkien isn't dull inherently, but he's been done to death umpteen times, so any straight adaptation isn't likely creative. Having characters be a mix of races is also old hat from decades of color-blind casting as an occasional option in theater and film.

Weak comparison, John.  Shakespeare swapping is done for Acting.  By definition, no Shakespearean actor is a Royal Dane, or a Scottish Warlord, or a Magician.  White, Black, Brown, Yellow or Red, none of them are anywhere near their characters, the White boy matches only skin color.  So what does race-swapping accomplish?  It allows non-white actors to show/learn their skills, and proves that the underlying motivations and emotions in Shakespeare are universal - they are no more restricted to race then they are to time.  See Kurosawa.

White Executives don’t think Imaro or Dossouye by Charles Saunders will sell, so to pay lip service to DEI and ESG they raceswap White characters into Black, to the cheers of well-off Y and Zers who have no fucking clue who Charles Saunders, Octavia Butler or Steven Barnes even are.  Black people cheer on Wakanda, a creation of White men, when the world of Steven Barnes’ Lion’s Blood lies ignored.

A decade ago, Kevin Crawford threw down the gauntlet with Spears of the Dawn.  You don’t like fantasy worlds inspired by a certain culture?  Write your own, here’s a bunch of Indesign templates and artwork you can use for free.  What was the response - mostly crickets.

Mike Pondsmith and Jerry Grayson were always there but not really Afrocentric.  Now there’s Coyote and Crow, Stealing Jordan, Motherlands MMO and a bunch of other POC projects that reference their culture and their experience.  They don’t need White people’s help, but like all good business owners they’ll take anyone’s money.

This race-swapping bullshit?  This is white racism by wealthy whites who think getting “White Leftovers” is “Equity”.

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 27, 2023, 02:32:15 AM
OK, fair points about Ghost in the Shell. It was indeed a bad example. I made an off-the-cuff post that popped to mind when Johansson was mentioned. Sorry about that.

Keeping on Lord of the Rings...

Quote from: jhkim
I mentioned earlier casting choices like in the MCU movies or Rings of Power. Since the majority of the leading heroes are white, I don't interpret this as anti-white racism. It seems clear in these cases that they're intentionally making characters a mix. Can you give other examples of what you'd consider racist choices?

I haven't watched Rings of Power, but from the promo material and stuff I have seen second hand, it does strike me as racist choices. That kind of cloying, forced "diversity" which is driven by politics and a lack of creativity.

I've seen it. I think calling a lack of creativity is fair. However, uncreative isn't the same thing as racist.

No, but in this case, it's part of the same phenomenon. Lack of creativity and a desire to shoehorn "colored" characters into roles to intentionally replace white characters, because they lack the creativity and skill to make original "colored" characters that are interesting.

Quote
I have heard complaints about hating white people, but here, the vast majority of the heroes are white - Galadriel, Elrond, Durin, Gandalf, and the harfoot Nori.

So, do you think that because they didn't replace all the white characters, that is some evidence that this isn't ideologically driven? I suspect they're smart enough to not alienate the whole fan base all at once. I mean, "Magic The Gathering: KILL WHITEY!" edition might give the game away.

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on March 27, 2023, 08:10:12 PM
What's known as color-blind casting was introduced decades ago in theater and film, starting with Shakespeare and opera companies giving some token roles to non-white actors while retelling the same traditional European stories. I don't see the practice as racist against white people, nor do I see it as especially progressive.

Weak comparison, John.  Shakespeare swapping is done for Acting.  By definition, no Shakespearean actor is a Royal Dane, or a Scottish Warlord, or a Magician.  White, Black, Brown, Yellow or Red, none of them are anywhere near their characters, the White boy matches only skin color.  So what does race-swapping accomplish?  It allows non-white actors to show/learn their skills, and proves that the underlying motivations and emotions in Shakespeare are universal - they are no more restricted to race then they are to time.  See Kurosawa.

White Executives don’t think Imaro or Dossouye by Charles Saunders will sell, so to pay lip service to DEI and ESG they raceswap White characters into Black, to the cheers of well-off Y and Zers who have no fucking clue who Charles Saunders, Octavia Butler or Steven Barnes even are.
This race-swapping bullshit?  This is white racism by wealthy whites who think getting “White Leftovers” is “Equity”.

It's reasonable to complain that wringing out yet another Tolkien adaptation or Shakespeare adaptation is unoriginal "leftovers" -- or in general that corporate-produced media tends to be rehashes of age-old properties from 60+ years ago. However, white people are *also* getting unoriginal rehashed stuff. So yes, I think it is equitable in that sense.

Under your critique, it seems like marketing yet another Tolkien rehash with all-white characters is OK, but marketing yet another Tolkien rehash with mixed-race characters is awful because it should be original or at least adapting something new. That seems to me like a double standard. And somehow you don't apply it to Shakespeare - where you say a mixed-race Shakespeare cast is acceptable.

I'd love to see adaptations of Saunders, Butler, or Barnes (for black authors) as well as adaptations of more variety of white authors as well. But if we're going to keep getting rehashes of 60+ year old properties, I think mixed-race adaptations are just as valid as all-white adaptations. They're going to typically be tired and unoriginal rehashes, but 90% of everything is shit - including original works.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Zelen on March 27, 2023, 08:33:36 PM
Here's a fixed version of one of the cards:

(https://i.imgur.com/SjBTSQB.png)

Credit to SensibleTJ (https://nitter.1d4.us/SensibleTJ/status/1636200780335046656#m).
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: SHARK on March 27, 2023, 08:58:25 PM
Greetings!

I think a great deal of the constant fucking race mixing and race swapping is pure, political bullshit. Many programs, movies, whatever media vehicle--even in umpteenth rehashings--should maintain their focus and integrity by remaining true to the original theme and foundation. I prefer that approach, and believe such artistic projects are far superior to the fucking racial mish-mash approach promoted by all of these Woke morons.

I don't want to see an endless parade of black this, black that, white empowered woman that, rainbow hippo something else.

I've seen *many* films, for example, where the setting is Mongolian, Central Asian, Indian, or Chinese--and guess what? Not ONE rainbow hippo, not one white person, and not one black person is to be seen. And, as an added bonus, the men are all masculine and strong, and the women are feminine and normal--and even when the women are doing something heroic or extraordinary--there is zero empowered feminist BS being shoved down your throat.

Pure, glorious ethnic programs and media--without any of the ideological BS. It *can* be done, and has been done, by many, for years and years. Just not here in cucked America. It's very refreshing and enjoyable to experience such mediums where the programs are entirely true to their ethnic and cultural roots and foundations.

I've also seen a few BLACK AFRICAN programs--and not ONE White person in them. Or anything that is stupid Woe politics.

That kind of focus, artistic discipline, and authenticity of context is what is missing in the majority of anything made in America anymore.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2023, 01:14:47 AM
Here's a fixed version of one of the cards:

Credit to SensibleTJ (https://nitter.1d4.us/SensibleTJ/status/1636200780335046656#m).

Saw that and its definitely an improvement...except for the beard (sad to say).
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on March 28, 2023, 01:32:53 PM
I've seen *many* films, for example, where the setting is Mongolian, Central Asian, Indian, or Chinese--and guess what? Not ONE rainbow hippo, not one white person, and not one black person is to be seen. And, as an added bonus, the men are all masculine and strong, and the women are feminine and normal--and even when the women are doing something heroic or extraordinary--there is zero empowered feminist BS being shoved down your throat.

Pure, glorious ethnic programs and media--without any of the ideological BS.
That kind of focus, artistic discipline, and authenticity of context is what is missing in the majority of anything made in America anymore.

I don't know what films you're thinking of, but usually it's the exact opposite. From what I've seen, Chinese films and Indian films are often highly ideological -- it's just that foreigners often don't recognize the ideological war that's being projected. Mainland Chinese cinema projects the government's myth that China is a monoculture without ethnic minorities like the Zhuang or Uyghur. Bollywood is also often seen as projecting a unified or at least moderate culture. Despite being in Hindi, they often downplay Hindu faith to the point of accusations of anti-Hindu bias and promoting Muslim stars. The Indian film board frequently censors independent movies for political content.

Internally, there is a lot of controversy over how films are biased compared to the reality of the country. The U.S. is about 60% white, so inclusion of the 40% non-white minority is often an issue. In India, about 40% of the population speaks Hindi vs Urdu and other languages - and about 80% of the population is Hindu. Those ethnic/linguistic/religious lines are usually the problems.

I feel this is like suggesting that 1950s American films and TV were non-ideological.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Trond on April 01, 2023, 08:20:39 AM
….
Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.
Notice how afraid they are of left-wing criticism (they practically bend over backwards to avoid it), but not right-wing.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: SHARK on April 01, 2023, 03:08:08 PM
I've seen *many* films, for example, where the setting is Mongolian, Central Asian, Indian, or Chinese--and guess what? Not ONE rainbow hippo, not one white person, and not one black person is to be seen. And, as an added bonus, the men are all masculine and strong, and the women are feminine and normal--and even when the women are doing something heroic or extraordinary--there is zero empowered feminist BS being shoved down your throat.

Pure, glorious ethnic programs and media--without any of the ideological BS.
That kind of focus, artistic discipline, and authenticity of context is what is missing in the majority of anything made in America anymore.

I don't know what films you're thinking of, but usually it's the exact opposite. From what I've seen, Chinese films and Indian films are often highly ideological -- it's just that foreigners often don't recognize the ideological war that's being projected. Mainland Chinese cinema projects the government's myth that China is a monoculture without ethnic minorities like the Zhuang or Uyghur. Bollywood is also often seen as projecting a unified or at least moderate culture. Despite being in Hindi, they often downplay Hindu faith to the point of accusations of anti-Hindu bias and promoting Muslim stars. The Indian film board frequently censors independent movies for political content.

Internally, there is a lot of controversy over how films are biased compared to the reality of the country. The U.S. is about 60% white, so inclusion of the 40% non-white minority is often an issue. In India, about 40% of the population speaks Hindi vs Urdu and other languages - and about 80% of the population is Hindu. Those ethnic/linguistic/religious lines are usually the problems.

I feel this is like suggesting that 1950s American films and TV were non-ideological.

Greetings!

The different ethnic cultural films I have seen are typically historical films, whether Chinese, Indian, Mongolian, for example. The films don't have stupid non-historical white or black people in every fucking story and every fucking movie.

That's the point, Jhkim.

That's why I also said Authentic context. Mongolian films, Chinese films, Indian films--are in historical context.

The fact that there are a few minorities of different kinds that live in such nations...why is that important? The films are talking about Chinese, or Mongolian, or Indian history or events, or stories. The minorities are fucking entirely irrelevant.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rafael on April 03, 2023, 07:34:37 AM
….
Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.
Notice how afraid they are of left-wing criticism (they practically bend over backwards to avoid it), but not right-wing.


That's because most US right-wing criticism tends to quickly become all about how "the Jews painted this picture using their French Space Laser from the dark side of the Moon, yo".

The core issue of the matter is an interesting one, though: Apparently, Warner Bros./NCL, in the biggest of possible FYs to Tolkien Enterprises, have partially copyrighted their designs from the movies - which, in turn, are based on the most popular depictions of Tolkien characters in 20th century art. So, even if Wizbro wanted to use designs resembling more traditional or conventional depictions of the characters and locations, they likely couldn't do so.

(This is also why all the ONCE IT GOES PUBIC DOMAEN IMMA WRITE MAH OWN HOBBERRRT stories are mostly coming from the same spring from which Justin LaNasa brews his coffee: if it works out, it should be a surprise to everyone.)

As to the card set itself, it's notably going to release during a time when Hasbro is arguably having the biggest downturn in the company's history: So, their next few signature products need to really make some money; it needs to outsell past sets, and it needs to really justify the expensive license. Will that be the case?

Both if it does and if it doesn't, it will probably take the edge off a lot of the "woke" excesses we have seen lately: From an investor's POV, the politicization of gaming at this level is just too risky, and the long-term value of these excesses is not conventionally calculable. Even in the relatively improbable event that the set is a huge hit and becomes a collector's item beyond the current installment of MtG, the accusations of silliness and virtue-signaling won't go away. That's literally not an image that Hasbro can afford any more.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Trond on April 03, 2023, 02:26:30 PM
….
Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.
Notice how afraid they are of left-wing criticism (they practically bend over backwards to avoid it), but not right-wing.


That's because most US right-wing criticism tends to quickly become all about how "the Jews painted this picture using their French Space Laser from the dark side of the Moon, yo".


No, it's because the Left is very good at, at best, making you a social pariah, or at worst, burning your city down.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rafael on April 04, 2023, 06:17:54 AM
No, it's because the Left is very good at, at best, making you a social pariah, or at worst, burning your city down.

 :D I wasn't disagreeing with you, necessarily, at least not in principle. The Twitter baristas are considerably more fearsome opponents than the "we're criticizing the same thing the loonies are howling about" crowd. We won't get to the actual discussion because corporate and feeder strategy is going to be to guilt everyone into buying their stuff, just as it was tried with "The Rings of Power", another, errrh, "moment of highness" in Tolkien franchise history.

Like, a Black "Lord of the Rings" wouldn't even be a bad idea - if people did it with finesse. But this, by itself, incredibly offensive tokenism is going to age like milk. --- Like, imagine how utterly ridiculous this is going to look, in a distance.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on April 04, 2023, 02:27:07 PM
I don't know what films you're thinking of, but usually it's the exact opposite. From what I've seen, Chinese films and Indian films are often highly ideological -- it's just that foreigners often don't recognize the ideological war that's being projected. Mainland Chinese cinema projects the government's myth that China is a monoculture without ethnic minorities like the Zhuang or Uyghur. Bollywood is also often seen as projecting a unified or at least moderate culture. Despite being in Hindi, they often downplay Hindu faith to the point of accusations of anti-Hindu bias and promoting Muslim stars. The Indian film board frequently censors independent movies for political content.

Internally, there is a lot of controversy over how films are biased compared to the reality of the country. The U.S. is about 60% white, so inclusion of the 40% non-white minority is often an issue. In India, about 40% of the population speaks Hindi vs Urdu and other languages - and about 80% of the population is Hindu. Those ethnic/linguistic/religious lines are usually the problems.

I feel this is like suggesting that 1950s American films and TV were non-ideological.

The different ethnic cultural films I have seen are typically historical films, whether Chinese, Indian, Mongolian, for example. The films don't have stupid non-historical white or black people in every fucking story and every fucking movie.

That's the point, Jhkim.

That's why I also said Authentic context. Mongolian films, Chinese films, Indian films--are in historical context.

I suspect we're talking past each other. Inserting non-historical white or black people is a unique feature of early 21st century American historical films, but there are tons of other ideological changes in films.

Late 20th century historical films like Braveheart (1995) or Gladiator (2000) don't have such non-historical ethnicity, but they are still ideological and have a lot of inauthentic approach to history. The inauthenticity shows up in other ways, like in how the historical context is edited to make a modern ideological point.

The same is true of a Chinese film like Hero (2002). Likewise, it doesn't insert black characters, but it is still very ideological in how it portrays Qin Shi Huang. The message includes avoiding violent rebellion despite oppressive government.

I'm picking big-budget well-known movies not because I think these are necessarily the movies you're thinking of -- but because we're not likely to have seen the same small movies.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Doctor Jest on April 05, 2023, 01:11:30 AM
….
Which is a long, rambling way of explaining why they made black Aragorn and others. They want to include black people, but don't want to/are too afraid to give them a dedicated story.
Notice how afraid they are of left-wing criticism (they practically bend over backwards to avoid it), but not right-wing.


That's because most US right-wing criticism tends to quickly become all about how "the Jews painted this picture using their French Space Laser

This is only because the vast majority of right wingers are cowards who don't speak up or act out for fear of being called racist, so only the whackadoodles remain visible, The average right winge says "I'd like to speak out on this but I got kids and a job" while the Left has an army of perpetually online unemployed losers who get abortions more often than they change their shirt, so they make the most noise.

Some companies and institutions are just getting a whiff of the woke toast burning to realize that these people also have no money. When the financial bottom truly falls out, we'll see who is genuinely woke and who just wants their bread buttered. The free money era is over.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: RPGPundit on April 05, 2023, 02:11:03 PM
I don't know what films you're thinking of, but usually it's the exact opposite. From what I've seen, Chinese films and Indian films are often highly ideological -- it's just that foreigners often don't recognize the ideological war that's being projected. Mainland Chinese cinema projects the government's myth that China is a monoculture without ethnic minorities like the Zhuang or Uyghur. Bollywood is also often seen as projecting a unified or at least moderate culture. Despite being in Hindi, they often downplay Hindu faith to the point of accusations of anti-Hindu bias and promoting Muslim stars. The Indian film board frequently censors independent movies for political content.

Internally, there is a lot of controversy over how films are biased compared to the reality of the country. The U.S. is about 60% white, so inclusion of the 40% non-white minority is often an issue. In India, about 40% of the population speaks Hindi vs Urdu and other languages - and about 80% of the population is Hindu. Those ethnic/linguistic/religious lines are usually the problems.

I feel this is like suggesting that 1950s American films and TV were non-ideological.

The different ethnic cultural films I have seen are typically historical films, whether Chinese, Indian, Mongolian, for example. The films don't have stupid non-historical white or black people in every fucking story and every fucking movie.

That's the point, Jhkim.

That's why I also said Authentic context. Mongolian films, Chinese films, Indian films--are in historical context.

I suspect we're talking past each other. Inserting non-historical white or black people is a unique feature of early 21st century American historical films, but there are tons of other ideological changes in films.

Late 20th century historical films like Braveheart (1995) or Gladiator (2000) don't have such non-historical ethnicity, but they are still ideological and have a lot of inauthentic approach to history. The inauthenticity shows up in other ways, like in how the historical context is edited to make a modern ideological point.

The same is true of a Chinese film like Hero (2002). Likewise, it doesn't insert black characters, but it is still very ideological in how it portrays Qin Shi Huang. The message includes avoiding violent rebellion despite oppressive government.

I'm picking big-budget well-known movies not because I think these are necessarily the movies you're thinking of -- but because we're not likely to have seen the same small movies.

The difference is those other examples aren't literal acts of Ethnic Cleansing.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Trond on April 08, 2023, 12:18:31 AM
One of the most bizarre woke things I sometimes see in movies (and games, come to think of it) is not just that they beat us with their "message" sledgehammer, but that they are weirdly inconsistent about it. For instance, they want to show inclusion, so they put, say, women of color into all sorts of progressive roles in a pseudo-historical film, BUT they also show that men are being sexist and excluding towards women at every turn, because patriarchy. So how did all these downtrodden women turn out to be so on top of things? Off the top of my head Enola Holmes and the game 80 Days both struck me as being completely inconsistent in this way. 
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Insane Nerd Ramblings on April 08, 2023, 10:39:24 PM
Its not really hard to understand. They're only interested in virtue signaling. They really don't give 2 shits about the supposed issues they're pushing. So you get weirdly inconsistent storylines that are illogical (to say the least). A good example is The Force Awakens which set up that Finn may have some affinity to wield The Force, which was completely dumped in The Last Jedi in favor of making him not only the comic relief, but sidelining him to the extent his own heroic sacrifice is annulled in the last moment.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 11, 2023, 08:50:35 AM
One of the most bizarre woke things I sometimes see in movies (and games, come to think of it) is not just that they beat us with their "message" sledgehammer, but that they are weirdly inconsistent about it. For instance, they want to show inclusion, so they put, say, women of color into all sorts of progressive roles in a pseudo-historical film, BUT they also show that men are being sexist and excluding towards women at every turn, because patriarchy. So how did all these downtrodden women turn out to be so on top of things? Off the top of my head Enola Holmes and the game 80 Days both struck me as being completely inconsistent in this way.
In 1997, Patrick Stewart did a production of Othello where EVERY character was race-swapped. Whites were black, blacks were white. Stewart himself played Othello (who is, in the original play, Moorish). It was, IIRC, considered fascinating if a little weird.

Try to get away with THAT nowadays.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on April 11, 2023, 01:41:07 PM
One of the most bizarre woke things I sometimes see in movies (and games, come to think of it) is not just that they beat us with their "message" sledgehammer, but that they are weirdly inconsistent about it. For instance, they want to show inclusion, so they put, say, women of color into all sorts of progressive roles in a pseudo-historical film, BUT they also show that men are being sexist and excluding towards women at every turn, because patriarchy. So how did all these downtrodden women turn out to be so on top of things? Off the top of my head Enola Holmes and the game 80 Days both struck me as being completely inconsistent in this way.

I'm not familiar with 80 Days, but I saw the Netflix adaptation of Enola Holmes. It struck me as exactly the same trope of the underdog that's been present especially in young adult fiction for many decades. No one takes the protagonist seriously because they're from a socially unacceptable background, and they face constant prejudice against them -- but ultimately they prove their inherent worth by being better than the privileged types. We see similar inconsistency in, say, the movie Stripes, where a ragtag band of misfits outperform the elite squad despite goofing off through most of their training time.

In real life, the underdog usually loses -- but having the underdog win despite the odds against them is a staple of feel-good movies. Regardless of whether one likes it or not, I don't think it's a new thing that's peculiar to wokism.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Grognard GM on April 27, 2023, 01:29:47 PM
One of the most bizarre woke things I sometimes see in movies (and games, come to think of it) is not just that they beat us with their "message" sledgehammer, but that they are weirdly inconsistent about it. For instance, they want to show inclusion, so they put, say, women of color into all sorts of progressive roles in a pseudo-historical film, BUT they also show that men are being sexist and excluding towards women at every turn, because patriarchy. So how did all these downtrodden women turn out to be so on top of things? Off the top of my head Enola Holmes and the game 80 Days both struck me as being completely inconsistent in this way.

Why, they got to the top by being twice as good, and hard working, as the men, silly! Even with the ever present weight of the Patriarchy trying to artificially prop up the weak and stupid men, gurl power can not be suppressed!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: GeekyBugle on April 28, 2023, 02:10:43 AM
One of the most bizarre woke things I sometimes see in movies (and games, come to think of it) is not just that they beat us with their "message" sledgehammer, but that they are weirdly inconsistent about it. For instance, they want to show inclusion, so they put, say, women of color into all sorts of progressive roles in a pseudo-historical film, BUT they also show that men are being sexist and excluding towards women at every turn, because patriarchy. So how did all these downtrodden women turn out to be so on top of things? Off the top of my head Enola Holmes and the game 80 Days both struck me as being completely inconsistent in this way.

I'm not familiar with 80 Days, but I saw the Netflix adaptation of Enola Holmes. It struck me as exactly the same trope of the underdog that's been present especially in young adult fiction for many decades. No one takes the protagonist seriously because they're from a socially unacceptable background, and they face constant prejudice against them -- but ultimately they prove their inherent worth by being better than the privileged types. We see similar inconsistency in, say, the movie Stripes, where a ragtag band of misfits outperform the elite squad despite goofing off through most of their training time.

In real life, the underdog usually loses -- but having the underdog win despite the odds against them is a staple of feel-good movies. Regardless of whether one likes it or not, I don't think it's a new thing that's peculiar to wokism.

So you agree that Enola Holmes is an example of what Trond is saying, but you still want to claim it's not because reasons...