TheRPGSite

Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Other Games => Topic started by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 04:18:14 PM

Title: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 04:18:14 PM
WotC strikes by race-swapping Aragorn in MtG for the upcoming Lord of the Rings set. "Our Goal Is A Modern Take On The Work Of J.R.R. Tolkien"

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/08/19/wizards-of-the-coast-race-swaps-aragorn-for-magic-the-gatherings-upcoming-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth-set-our-goal-is-a-modern-take-on-the-work-of/

(https://boundingintocomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/2022.08.20-02.27-boundingintocomics-630046a466d17.png)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Brooding Paladin on August 20, 2022, 04:26:35 PM
When will it end?  This really just goes too far.  Why the need to do this?  I'm all for inclusivity but am equally opposed to revisionism.  It's almost tantamount to saying, "There is no excellent literary work coming out of predominantly African society so we've taken the liberty to make what is dominant more inclusive." 

Who's the racist now?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on August 20, 2022, 04:36:09 PM
  Modern Take = less white people doing awesome shit…other than of course creating the world, setting, and character you are fucking up.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Almost_Useless on August 20, 2022, 04:50:37 PM
"Our Goal Is A Modern Take On The Work Of J.R.R. Tolkien"

'We know this has been popular for nearly 100 years, but we think we can make some improvements.'  I'm having a hard time coming up with a more arrogant 'take' on anything.  Maybe they can take a minute to fix a Picasso or a Dali while they're at it?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Zelen on August 20, 2022, 04:57:28 PM
They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 05:12:36 PM
"The Rings of Power" on Amazon is being obliterated across both aisles for introducing new black characters (among MANY other things). Not even they made Galadriel black. These guys are insane.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Jam The MF on August 20, 2022, 05:25:47 PM
Must. Change. Everything.
Must. Tear. Down. Everything.
Must. Destroy. Everything.
Must. Rebuild. Everything.....
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Crusader X on August 20, 2022, 05:39:52 PM
Don't give WotC your money.  Ever.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: HappyDaze on August 20, 2022, 06:53:33 PM
So, what will they do with the Black Numenoreans?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Effete on August 20, 2022, 07:08:32 PM
Tolkien is turning in his grave.

Fuck these vandals! Never giving them another cent! In fact... where'd I put my eyepatch?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Visitor Q on August 20, 2022, 07:26:24 PM
In fairness it is WotC so who cares about their take on literally anything?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Effete on August 20, 2022, 07:37:36 PM
In fairness it is WotC so who cares about their take on literally anything?

Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: ForgottenF on August 20, 2022, 07:45:25 PM
So, what will they do with the Black Numenoreans?

I never got the impression the Black Numenoreans were supposed to be ethnically Black. IIRC they're described as dark-haired and swarthy, which sort of implies something like a Mediterranean look (which would make sense, given their pirate aesthetics).
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 20, 2022, 08:06:06 PM
When will it end?  This really just goes too far.  Why the need to do this?  I'm all for inclusivity but am equally opposed to revisionism.  It's almost tantamount to saying, "There is no excellent literary work coming out of predominantly African society so we've taken the liberty to make what is dominant more inclusive." 

Who's the racist now?
Exactly. There are numerous works of Afrofantasy that could be adapted but aren't because racism. If studios refuse to adapt afrofantasy by African-American authors, then studios are racist. White Leftists even write books admitting how they have racism in their DNA, so they don't even pretend they aren't racist.

The leftists I know admit they don't like performative wokeness and are just hoping these shitty products will succeed and somehow inspire studios to go beyond performative wokeness. I think they're grasping at straws. Corpos don't actually care about social justice, they just want money. I would think leftists who rail about capitalist injustices would already know this.

This battle isn't going to be won by corpos that churn out bad product on the cheap. It will be won by black creators like Eric July, who show that original afro-fiction can easily build an audience with some effort and connections.

Studios are just racists who suck the blood of dead white european men like ticks while claiming to hate their hosts.

So, what will they do with the Black Numenoreans?

I never got the impression the Black Numenoreans were supposed to be ethnically Black. IIRC they're described as dark-haired and swarthy, which sort of implies something like a Mediterranean look (which would make sense, given their pirate aesthetics).
It's a bit more complicated than that.
http://theblogthattimeforgot.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-amazons-of-far-harad.html
https://topmovie123free.blogspot.com/2017/11/the-lord-of-rings-series-wild.html

The world of Arda has a deep history and much of it was never explored by Tolkien. You could very easily write a series about how the evil Numenoreans colonized and oppressed the innocent Haradrim, how some Numenoreans went native and became the Corsairs and fought against this colonialism, how Sauron was cannily playing both sides against each other, etc. Not to mention wholly original but appropriate inventions like the titular "Amazons of Far Harad." Arda is easily able to support afrofantasy without revisionism to Middle-Earth, because it has an Africa equivalent (Far Harad) that was never explored.

If the goal is social justice, then just make a series set entirely in Far Harad where there are no white people and the entire cast is black.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Omega on August 20, 2022, 08:58:37 PM
To be fair I felt Bashki gave Aragorn a sort of Native American-esque look. Darkest skinned character amongst the heroes.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: David Johansen on August 20, 2022, 09:58:37 PM
meh who cares?  A game I don't play or buy from a company I don't support for a tired old license from a dead author who wouldn't have green lit a single project from the last 30 years.  I wouldn't have known they had the license if it weren't for this thread. 
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Jaeger on August 20, 2022, 10:38:14 PM
WotC strikes by race-swapping Aragorn in MtG for the upcoming Lord of the Rings set. "Our Goal Is A Modern Take On The Work Of J.R.R. Tolkien"

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/08/19/wizards-of-the-coast-race-swaps-aragorn-for-magic-the-gatherings-upcoming-the-lord-of-the-rings-tales-of-middle-earth-set-our-goal-is-a-modern-take-on-the-work-of/
...

At this point this is just all a deliberate fuck you.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ratman_tf on August 20, 2022, 11:12:05 PM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/9zQAAOSwJ5ViAzu6/s-l500.jpg)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 20, 2022, 11:18:10 PM
meh who cares?  A game I don't play or buy from a company I don't support for a tired old license from a dead author who wouldn't have green lit a single project from the last 30 years.  I wouldn't have known they had the license if it weren't for this thread.

That's not even the right card game to buy if you like Tolkien. The "Lord of the Rings Living Card Game" from Fantasy Flight oozes Tolkien from every rule, is based on adventures to be solved cooperatively by fellowships of characters, has a deep respect for the lore and the art is amazing. This is the usual MtG with a woke Tolkien paint.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Tubesock Army on August 20, 2022, 11:19:21 PM
Yeah, I'm sick of white guys being cast as Jesus!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: David Johansen on August 20, 2022, 11:30:13 PM
I'm tired of Jesus being portayed as a midwestern, Caucasian, professional linebacker with blowdryed aubern hair.

Also, to keep things on gaming, his stat line in Fantasy Wargaming is too weak.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Sacrificial Lamb on August 21, 2022, 02:43:58 AM
When will it end?  This really just goes too far.  Why the need to do this?  I'm all for inclusivity but am equally opposed to revisionism.  It's almost tantamount to saying, "There is no excellent literary work coming out of predominantly African society so we've taken the liberty to make what is dominant more inclusive." 

Who's the racist now?

Hasbro has to do it, because they're receiving ESG investment capital from mega-corporations like BlackRock and Vanguard. If they wanna keep receiving a steady flow of NWO bribe money, then it means that they MUST push Critical Race Theory Babylon 2.0 propaganda.

All companies that receive ESG money are REQUIRED to do stuff like this.

People should ask themselves why companies are required to do this.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 21, 2022, 07:04:16 AM
The new management at Warner Discovery has nuked a finished "Batgirl: the Woke". They reasoning? "We can't further damage the brand". Maybe we are reaching the point when being bled white will give some hints.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: VisionStorm on August 21, 2022, 08:00:35 AM
Yeah, I'm sick of white guys being cast as Jesus!

I agree!

Arbitrarily race swapping a contemporary fictional character who's race and appearance are firmly established and broadly recognizable to its target audience is the solution to a fictionalized version of Jesus being portrayed as white by people who didn't know what he looked like hundreds of years after he was dead and his religion was followed almost exclusively by people from that race (at least at the time white depictions of Jesus started cropping up). Those two circumstances and historical contexts are 1:1 equivalent and vandalizing established works to purposefully change things up, as opposed to, you know, providing a more accurate portrayal of Jesus (who, as a Jewish guy would probably have been only a bit darker skinned and haired), is the way to rectify that situation.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 21, 2022, 08:18:02 AM
This thread is not on an RPG subject, so I'm moving it. Also, keep it ON TOPIC, or else.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 21, 2022, 09:42:20 AM
This thread is not on an RPG subject, so I'm moving it. Also, keep it ON TOPIC, or else.

Sorry Pundit. You are right. I originally posted it in the RPG forum because this was announced in the same breath of the new "One D&D" (same Apple-style launch video actually). I guess that "Black Aragorn" can be considered the symbol of the whole nu-WotC mindset. :-\
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on August 21, 2022, 09:58:19 AM
Woooaaah i SO shocked! Woke company makes woke dogshit! What a suprise!
Lets act like publicity! That will really show em!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on August 21, 2022, 10:53:15 AM
Yeah, I'm sick of white guys being cast as Jesus!

  I am pretty sick of white people thinking following Jesus is going to get them anywhere.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 21, 2022, 01:48:43 PM
I still want to see an “Amazons of Far Harad” tv show.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: SHARK on August 22, 2022, 12:13:29 AM
Greetings!

Yes, all the Marxism, revisionism, and racism being pushed and promoted by the powers that be--including WOTC in this insulting instance--is designed to demoralize everyone, and bludgeon you over and over into submission.

Just get on your knees, and welcome the ass fucking.

You can sob and grit your teeth, but they want to make you take it, over and over again.

This is what WOTC and others want to do to you, and to every area of culture.

Thankfully, we have the OSR.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 01:56:41 AM
Amazon should make the elves all purple like those in the Hobbit animated film. Boy, they sure were ugly.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: tenbones on August 22, 2022, 08:57:18 AM
Best comment ever: "Shelob will now be called Theylob."

Runnerup: The second expansion set for the series will be called "The Return of the Kangz".
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 09:46:03 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 10:51:51 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
In context it wasn't meant to be racist or homophobic.

In Tolkien's world literal and spiritual light and dark are commonly associated with good and evil, respectively. This probably stems from the fact that humans can't see in the dark, and isn't meant to be a statement about racism. You see a similar symbolism in Dragon Prince, where the Haitian-coded elves of color worship the Sun and associate light and fire with purification; although it isn't explored, I would guess that they associate their own skin color with being burned (like charcoal) and thus purified. There's also Sun-Man (https://www.officialsunman.com/), a black superhero.

Saruman's makeover is supposed to indicate he believes himself the greatest wizard ever, even above his makers, because wizards use color coding to indicate their rank in the order. It's not meant to symbolize that pride colors are evil.

They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.
The irony is that they accuse their opponents of making orcs resemble black people. The projection is strong. (The same people criticize characters like Gamora as racist because she's not real black representation, but a space alien.)

There's no observed correlation (https://areomagazine.com/2022/02/04/evil-orcs-accusations-of-racism-in-dungeons-and-dragons/) between using orcs and holding racist attitudes. Racism isn't that subtle.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 22, 2022, 11:35:40 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".

If you think you are joking, this is an official seminary by the Tolkien Society, Summer 2021:

Christopher Vaccaro – Pardoning Saruman?: The Queer in Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings

The Silmarillion is J. R. R. Tolkien’s work in which his Christian upbringing and influence can be seen through the story and the characters. From the song that brings Arda to life to Morgoth’s fall, the book is part of an original pre-history to Middle-Earth and an allegory to Christian’s mythology. In The Lord of the Rings preface, Tolkien comments about the difference between applicability and allegory, and how the reader is free to read it according to his point of view. Therefore this paper aims to read The Silmarillion character Manwë as an archetype of the rightful and lawful leader. For this manner, we will compare him to Xangô, the Orixá from the African-Brazilian religion Umbanda according to the concepts of the archetypal literary criticism. The reason why we trace a comparison between a literary character and an Orixá is to show that archetypes are not reserved to myths, dreams, arts and old religions. Instead, it still lives in our daily lives, especially in religion, even though we can not see it sometimes. Manwë is described as the noblest between the Valar and the one who understands Iluvatar’s purpose. Because of that, he is chosen as the King. He commands the winds and the air and represents justice. In Umbanda, the Orixás represent an aspect of nature and human psychology. Therefore, Xangô represents lightning and thunder, and justice. He is King among the Orixás because he was able to unify all nations. We also can see this archetype in other mythological characters, such as Zeus and Odin. The cultural differences in the archetype representation and the fact that it still is worshipped show us that perhaps the need for a rightful leader is part of the human psyche whether in art or religion.


[If you are wondering where is Saruman in all of this, the answer is: nowhere.]

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rhymer88 on August 22, 2022, 11:45:37 AM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
In context it wasn't meant to be racist or homophobic.

Yes, I know, but given SJWs' obsessions, these elements from LotR become unintentionally humorous.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Rob Necronomicon on August 22, 2022, 02:56:14 PM
I just find it so weird - Feeling the need to change the cannon as it's already set in stone.

I mean, mid-earth is a big place and there are plenty of opportunities to make YOUR adventures more diverse (if you want). But changing main characters just to tick boxes is utterly bizarre.

But fuck it, why not go the whole hog and just make all the main characters POC? Because they are chicken shits and know the game would fall to bits because only a tiny % would actually buy it if they did. Instead, it just drip-feeds us evil 'crackers' trying to educate us on what's right and wrong (as they perceive it).

But I'm not really that bothered, tbh. As I wouldn't touch 5e with asbestos gloves.

If I wanted a good LoTR game I'd either go for, MERP, Against the Dark Master, Or mess around with one of the OSR games.

Ironically I never thought Aragorn was just a 'white dude'. But WoTC knows far better than the man Tolkien of course.


Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on August 22, 2022, 05:18:05 PM
how long before Orcs are presented as white-skinned?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Persimmon on August 22, 2022, 07:14:05 PM
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".

You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.

Update: See the post above!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on August 22, 2022, 07:16:13 PM
You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.
I don't think there were even female orcs at Isengard, and he wanted Gandalf to stay pretty badly.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 08:01:56 PM
You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.
I don't think there were even female orcs at Isengard, and he wanted Gandalf to stay pretty badly.
Tolkien never explored the topic of female orcs beyond saying in a letter that they presumably existed. In the actual books all we ever hear is that Gollum ate a baby goblin offscreen. Perhaps this mystery is intentional on Tolkien's part because he knew that readers would come up with way freakier ideas than if he outright provided explanations himself. Case in point: I recall reading a LotR/GoT crossover fanfic where Saruman and Qyburn physically assemble orcs from assorted body parts a la Frankenstein, which are stated to clone themselves like carrots if planted in fertile soil.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Persimmon on August 22, 2022, 08:47:35 PM
But since Saruman was breeding half-orcs at Isengard, isn't that sufficient evidence that they simply reproduce like other races.  Or might they have been male orcs breeding with female humans?  And given that in several places Tolkien references breeding orcs I think it's safe to say he meant with females without going into the moronic logic employed by the idiots working on the execrable Amazon series.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 09:19:34 PM
But since Saruman was breeding half-orcs at Isengard, isn't that sufficient evidence that they simply reproduce like other races.  Or might they have been male orcs breeding with female humans?  And given that in several places Tolkien references breeding orcs I think it's safe to say he meant with females without going into the moronic logic employed by the idiots working on the execrable Amazon series.
We don't actually know how the creatures were created. Treebeard speculates that they're hybrids, but it's never confirmed.

And before you suggest "Saruman was letting his orc allies rape Dunlending women that he somehow acquired without raising any eyebrows," recall that Morgoth (and to a lesser extent Sauron and Saruman) was by our standards a master geneticist with similar capabilities to b-movie scifi mad scientists but with a fantasy aesthetic. He created demons, dragons, vampires, werewolves, etc. Tolkien wasn't a scifi writer or a geneticist, so obviously he wouldn't have the know-how to articulate that, but I imagine that if he did have the know-how then he would articulate that way. For propriety if nothing else. "Created in vats by mixing the essences of different creatures" sounds way less shlocky and exploitative than "abducting women and putting them on rape farms."

Tolkien is not the sort of writer who writes female characters being tortured or demeaned specifically for being female like a lot of writers do. The closest he comes to that is having a handful of minor female characters whose stories are footnotes in the background be forced to marry against their will (all but stating that they were raped by their husbands (https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/03/03/rape-in-tolkiens-middle-earth-part-i/)), but Tolkien never dwells on violence or torture, especially not sexual torture. At one point he specifies that elves spontaneously die if they're sexually assaulted (https://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/48288208579), and since they're immortal this means they can just reincarnate later where it's safe. And the closest he ever comes to the monstrous feminine is Ungoliant, who happens to be one of the single most dangerous beings in the legendarium. Morgoth feared being eaten by her! Ungoliant is female and implied to be the progenitor of the giant spiders (presumably parthenogenically), but her monstrosity comes from being made of darkness and hungering to eat everything rather than any act of giving birth.

Tolkien was a hopeless romantic like that. His experiences in WWI and his marriage informed how he wrote his works. It's a far cry from the torture-porn, rape-as-wallpaper, and misogynistic Handmaid's Tale of Gor-style sick pervert fantasies that characterizes modern fantasy. IMO, we need more men like him, men who aren't ravening sex fiends that hide their misogyny behind wokeness and "but muh realism!".

Sorry for the rant, I just really need to get that off my chest. Again.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on August 22, 2022, 09:22:25 PM
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 22, 2022, 09:33:27 PM
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs/Origin

Long story short: Tolkien never settled on a definitive origin while he was alive.

Altho since elves canonically die if sexually assaulted, we can assume that Morgoth either didn't use sexual torture or developed a means to capture and reincarnate elf souls against their will after they died during the course of the experiments.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Persimmon on August 22, 2022, 09:42:09 PM
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?

He kind of goes back and forth on that in the various writings published posthumously by his son.  Those writings also specifically reference breeding.  So yeah, you could go with the mad scientist thing and I think that might be the "origin," but there's plenty of evidence for just the good old fashioned method.  See, in particular, The Peoples of Middle Earth, which is Volume XII of The History of Middle Earth, edited by Christopher Tolkien.

Interestingly, in yet another instance of Amazon getting the lore wrong, they portray Ar-Pharazon with a big beard.  Tolkien stated that the Numenorean men did not have beards, as a racial characteristic.  This is from The Nature of Middle Earth, edited by Carl Hofstetter.  Of course by this logic Aragorn also should not have a beard so Peter Jackson gets docked as well.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 22, 2022, 11:27:33 PM
Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Why? What's going to happen?

If it's bad, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.
If it's okay or merely different, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.
If it's good, Tolkien fans will bitch about it, but watch it and spend billions on merchandise.

It's like you guys forgot how much bitching and moaning there was about Jackson's movies.

As for me, when I saw the thread title, I thought: "What? surely Aragorn can't be an elf?"
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 23, 2022, 12:01:04 PM
Amazon is learning and WotC is going to learn: You Don't Fuck With Tolkien Fans!
Why? What's going to happen?

The first teaser back in February being obliterated on Youtube with 128K likes and TWO MILLION dislikes. Then from there things started to go really downhill.

And of course the crown jewel, that Amazon pulled down after, like, 4 hours. Too late.

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 23, 2022, 08:06:29 PM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 24, 2022, 08:37:41 AM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!
Cowboy Bebop (liveaction) and First Kill say hi.

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on August 24, 2022, 12:23:03 PM
What's incredibly offensive about this is that it is implicitly claiming that non-white cultures are inferior and unworthy of mention. They can't even go whole hog and write cultures with European aesthetics but an all-black populace, which would at least avoid the obvious tokenism. We had an entire cartoon like that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happily_Ever_After:_Fairy_Tales_for_Every_Child) back in the 90s, and it was great.

While in theory I agree with the idea of decolonization in the form of reconnecting with one's ancestors and history, as everyone is entitled to that and trying to destroy it is genocide. But this is just colonization and cultural appropriation from the other end. What kind of person thinks so lowly of themselves that they have to rewrite history to feel like they have any self-worth?

Like, I don't mind new writers introducing new nations and characters of Indian (or whatever) descent into the Arthurian mythos (https://medium.com/perceive-more/brown-people-at-the-round-table-dev-patels-green-knight-and-historical-reality-d7a33b0cd6a1). The old stories have plenty of examples, like Prince Feirefiz of Zazamanc. So inventing a new Indian prince OC who travels on a great adventure that ultimately lands him a seat on the Round Table would be perfectly in keeping with the styles of the mythos. Some of his adventures can even be identical to other stories, since as a mythos these stories aren't consistent.

But racebending existing characters feels like both a stunning lack of imagination (OCs are like the first thing that a tween thinks of when doing fanfic and fanart) and petty envy. Whenever I read articles defending racebending of traditionally white characters to non-white, the text often drips with a subtext of envy, pettiness, and vengeful hatred. "We don't want new heroes who are uniquely ours and live alongside your heroes. We want to steal your heroes and destroy your history."
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Reckall on August 25, 2022, 01:51:57 AM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer

The video I linked not a trailer. Try to watch it - I know, it is painful.

Quote
didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

They can't. They spent a billion on it. :D

Quote
People will watch it.

Sure. Who doesn't love a trainwreck?

Quote
And the Tolkien fanboys

...Who, right now are "racist, misogynist incels" - yes, even married black females...

Quote
will watch it multiple times

This is a given: this show will generate memes for decades. I'll see it as soon as it hits the stream. I already have the outline of a Hitler Parody in mind.

Quote
so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it.

They are already doing that under each and every trailer, interview, YouTube video, paid fluff piece on magazines who - lo! - have undisclosed distribution deals with Amazon... Basically, the main point of criticism is "this is fan fiction - and a bad one at that".

Ironically, Reddit is RPG.net in this. The North Korea vibes are strong there.

Quote
And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

...So that more people will obliterate it. My guess is that the premiere will do good numbers, the reviews in MSM will praise it to high heaven, then silence.

Quote
Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for

If so, Amazon has the best publicity ever. They managed to offend everybody: fans, normies, PoC, LGBTQ+... The level of hate this show is getting from every corner of the World (literally) in not simply the highest ever: it is unprecedented.

You haven't a clue about what is happening here, do you?  ;)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on September 28, 2022, 09:54:46 AM
"Oh no! The YouTube trailer didn't go down well! Cancel the series!"

People will watch it. And the Tolkien fanboys will watch it multiple times so they can explain in copious detail on reddit exactly what is wrong with it. And this will make other people curious, and go and watch it.

Haters are the best publicity anyone could hope for: they work many hours for free, and they tell everybody about you!

And they'll spend billions on the merchandise.

Note: I'm not expecting to watch the series. But that's not because it butchers Tolkien, I don't give a damn about it. It just looks sloppily-made and self-consciously ponderous, and I already have a zillion sloppily-made shows I need to catch up on, I don't need to another one to the list - and most aren't as self-consciously ponderous.

But the fanboys sure as shit will watch it. NERDFURY!!!

  Ratings say you are completely wrong.  You assume nerdfury requires actual viewing of the product to rage out about it.  Bad assumption.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ruprecht on September 28, 2022, 02:52:53 PM
I think Tolkien imagined him as white, the readers generally get that vision as well, but does anyone have a clip of the actual text when Aragorn is first introduced?
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Wrath of God on September 28, 2022, 04:26:16 PM
Tolkien described him as white.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Tallifer on September 29, 2022, 07:45:33 AM
Christopher Tolkien closely guarded the legacy of his father, but it seems that the present heirs have less regard. I bet Italian PM and Tolkien superfanGiorgia Meloni prefers the traditional interpretation of Tolkien's works. ;)
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on September 29, 2022, 09:52:55 AM
Do people not know that Far Harad exists? It's the canonical afrofantasy continent of Arda. Sure, Tolkien didn't explore it in his lifetime because he was writing a mythos for England with Middle Earth, but it still exists. You don't need to racebend white characters to meet your representation quota.

I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on September 29, 2022, 06:35:04 PM
Do people not know that Far Harad exists? It's the canonical afrofantasy continent of Arda. Sure, Tolkien didn't explore it in his lifetime because he was writing a mythos for England with Middle Earth, but it still exists. You don't need to racebend white characters to meet your representation quota.

I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.

  there is a group out there MUCH more into erasing euros than elevating afros.  It is far, far easier to destroy than to create.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 17, 2022, 01:16:45 AM


I find it incredibly telling that studios are racebending white eurofantasy rather than promoting genuine afrofantasy.

Yeah, they could make an Imaro movie, but they think that wouldn't be commercially viable enough for them; they need a bigger IP like the Lord of the Rings to blackwash so they can virtue-signal while (hopefully) making lots of money at the same time.

They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 18, 2022, 09:23:58 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Omega on October 18, 2022, 11:44:51 PM
Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.

MIB resembled the comic only barely so its like 90% changes anyhow and race or gender swapping a character has been a thing for a really long time.

The problem I have with the current craze is its not just tokenism, it is hateful tokenism. They spit on those they claim to be 'helping' and they spit on the original authors for their thinly veiled insinuations they 'had to fix it' because the original author was wacist! gasp!

And on and on ad nausium.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2022, 09:27:11 AM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.
Except they used James Earl Jones, who I would listen to if he read a fuckin' phonebook.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 19, 2022, 01:13:57 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Personally, I usually don't mind differences between the original and an adapted work as long as they're handled well. I liked the Men in Black movies, for example. Given the host of other changes typically done in adaptations, changing little things like hair color, accent, or race usually seems minor.

On the other hand, there are many times when it annoys me over how it is done.

True.  But liberals at the time criticized the movie for having the villain be a black man.  (Naturally, the fact that two Asian actors were not only main characters but heroes, and the female lead was everything they claim to want in a movie like this, was completely overlooked by them).  Roger Ebert was quite distressed about a white man decapitating a black man, though he did like the movie overall.  So if you think conservatives today are overreacting to blackwashing, fairness dictates that you also criticize liberals for the same thing.  Anyway, what was dumb was the fact that Thulsa Doom isn't even in the Conan stories and was borrowed from Kull, so it's not really disrespecting the source material.  Milius already disrespected it plenty, though he did produce a good movie at least, if not exactly a good Conan movie.  Having a black Aragorn or a white Imaro is most definitely disrespecting the source material, and the changes are pointless to boot.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 20, 2022, 04:49:19 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Anyway, what was dumb was the fact that Thulsa Doom isn't even in the Conan stories and was borrowed from Kull, so it's not really disrespecting the source material.  Milius already disrespected it plenty, though he did produce a good movie at least, if not exactly a good Conan movie.

It sounds like you're OK with disrespecting the source material as long as it produces a good movie, given the example of Milius' Conan movie. And that's basically my position as well.

As for disrespecting the source material and making a bad movie -- well, obviously it's bad. On the other hand, 90% of everything is crap - so I don't necessarily think that it is bad *because* they messed with the source material. Likely, it would still be bad even if they stuck to the source material exactly.


Having a black Aragorn or a white Imaro is most definitely disrespecting the source material, and the changes are pointless to boot.

I can't find any mention of the white Imaro movie you mentioned by search. Do you remember any details about it? I also haven't seen the Magic: The Gathering set from the original post, so I don't know about that.

I'm fine to talk about respecting the source material for stuff that I've seen, but for me it depends a lot on what the overall product is.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 20, 2022, 11:20:28 PM
They actually did make a movie of one of the Imaro books, back in the 80s I think, but they totally recast it with white people.  That's why I've never watched it.  I'm not going to watch a whitewashed Imaro movie any more than I'd watch a blackwashed Conan movie.  If they'd made a decent Imaro movie with only black people in it, I'd have happily watched it.

The 1982 Conan movie blackwashed the main villain Thulsa Doom to be a black man, who was originally white in the stories and comics. Then again, there were many many differences bigger than this between the original stories and the movie.

Anyway, what was dumb was the fact that Thulsa Doom isn't even in the Conan stories and was borrowed from Kull, so it's not really disrespecting the source material.  Milius already disrespected it plenty, though he did produce a good movie at least, if not exactly a good Conan movie.

It sounds like you're OK with disrespecting the source material as long as it produces a good movie, given the example of Milius' Conan movie. And that's basically my position as well.

As for disrespecting the source material and making a bad movie -- well, obviously it's bad. On the other hand, 90% of everything is crap - so I don't necessarily think that it is bad *because* they messed with the source material. Likely, it would still be bad even if they stuck to the source material exactly.


Having a black Aragorn or a white Imaro is most definitely disrespecting the source material, and the changes are pointless to boot.

I can't find any mention of the white Imaro movie you mentioned by search. Do you remember any details about it? I also haven't seen the Magic: The Gathering set from the original post, so I don't know about that.

I'm fine to talk about respecting the source material for stuff that I've seen, but for me it depends a lot on what the overall product is.

I'll answer the easy one first:  It's a Roger Corman movie called "Amazons."  I first read about the thing in one of Saunders' blog posts about the time that Thor movie with the race-swapped Heimdall came out.  I can't find the original blog post in a web search, but I did come across this Salon article that references it (and predictably thinks Saunders is wrong -- how dare a black man go off the plantation and disagree with his while liberal betters!):

https://www.salon.com/2011/04/20/thor_casting_viking_movies_open2011/

The question about the Conan movie is more complicated, and since I don't want to derail a discussion about Aragorn into one about Conan, I'll try to be brief.  Conan the Barbarian is an outlier -- a movie that may disrespect the source material, but it is not disrespectful of it.  It treats it seriously, it doesn't mock it, everything from the acting to the score to the set design is great.  It's everything the smoking dog-log of a sequel to it was not.  It even got Conan's relationship with Crom right.  Like I said:  it's a good movie, it's just not a good Conan movie.  I don't forgive it for not being a Conan movie, it's just that I give it credit for doing what it does so well.  Usually movies that venture that far from their source material are utter trash; this one is not.   I just try to forget that it's about Conan when I watch it, just like I try to forget that Braveheart is about Sir William Wallace.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 21, 2022, 02:56:11 AM
I'll answer the easy one first:  It's a Roger Corman movie called "Amazons."  I first read about the thing in one of Saunders' blog posts about the time that Thor movie with the race-swapped Heimdall came out.  I can't find the original blog post in a web search, but I did come across this Salon article that references it (and predictably thinks Saunders is wrong -- how dare a black man go off the plantation and disagree with his while liberal betters!):

https://www.salon.com/2011/04/20/thor_casting_viking_movies_open2011/

Thanks. It's apparently based on a Saunders short story, "Agbewe's Sword," which appeared in Jessica Amanda Salmonson's anthology, Amazons!, in the late 1970s. It's not in the collected Imaro stories, and I'm not clear if Imaro even appears in it. Saunders mentions it in this source:

https://differentdrumming.com/mistaken-identity

But it was about African characters that Saunders was asked to rewrite as white, which he hated.

Like I said:  it's a good movie, it's just not a good Conan movie.  I don't forgive it for not being a Conan movie, it's just that I give it credit for doing what it does so well.  Usually movies that venture that far from their source material are utter trash; this one is not.   I just try to forget that it's about Conan when I watch it, just like I try to forget that Braveheart is about Sir William Wallace.

I'm ambivalent about this. I think a lot of movies are better for straying far from the source material - like Men in Black or The Wiz, to take some examples. Obviously this is highly subjective. Film is a very different medium from novels, and what works in one often doesn't work in another.

Regarding Thor -- the MCU films are very far from the original comics they were inspired by, which I thought generally worked well, compared to some closer adaptations of comics.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 22, 2022, 12:54:46 AM
Thanks for the Saunders correction.  I was misremembering when I thought it was Imaro, obviously.  I remember some of Saunders' original blog, in which he said he wasn't happy about the changes, but frankly he needed the money so he accepted the deal.  I respect Saunders because instead of latching on to somebody else's creation and whining about how it didn't suit him and he was going to set out to "correct" it, he did what so many of us here advocate -- he created his own thing instead.  I think it's pretty telling that so many of us "right-wing white supremacist Nazis" here are at least aware of his work while the douchebag in that Black Gate article apparently never heard of him.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 23, 2022, 12:43:29 AM
I respect Saunders because instead of latching on to somebody else's creation and whining about how it didn't suit him and he was going to set out to "correct" it, he did what so many of us here advocate -- he created his own thing instead.  I think it's pretty telling that so many of us "right-wing white supremacist Nazis" here are at least aware of his work while the douchebag in that Black Gate article apparently never heard of him.

Oliver Brackenbury from the Black Gate article created his own fiction magazine and is publishing original new stories in it. So he is creating his own thing. As far as I can see, none of the stories in issue #0 are adaptations.

There are plenty of other differences, but the core thing Brackenbury is doing seems exactly like what Saunders did - new stories that feature non-white characters and themes in otherwise the same genre as previous stories. I don't even see that much difference in how they talk about what they are doing. Here is the start and end of an essay from Saunders, for example:

Quote
"Die, Black Dog!"
A Look at Racism in Fantasy Literature

For an avid reader of fantasy who happens to be black, the exclamation in the title of this essay pops up far too often for comfort. The genre-related problems of reader identification and suspension of disbelief become immeasurably magnified with these words, because the ethnic epithets that spew from the mouth of a Conan are all-too-well represented in the grim world of reality. When blatant racism does occur in a fantasy tale, the black reader is rudely jerked from its escapist world. And when the escapism dies, so does the story.

Even a cursory examination of the roots of today’s fantasy reveals a great deal about the ethnic attitudes of some of its pioneering authors. I refer, of course, to the Unholy Trinity of the Golden Age of the Pulps: Howard, Lovecraft, and Smith. Though pure fantasy can be traced back to Homer, the sword-and-sorcery that is popular today was born in the pages of Weird Tales. Unfortunately, these beginnings were steeped in racism, as is every other American institution.
Quote
And that brings me to the point of answering the question that those who are still reading this must be asking by now; “If you don’t like it, why in Crom's name don't you stop reading it? But I do like fantasy. It is my favorite form of literature. What I don't like is the racism in it.

Being a black fantasy buff can be a somewhat schizoid existence. It is another instance of cognitive dissonance. On one hand, I often feel like killing certain authors, even while I'm enjoying their stories. On the other, I sometimes feel that the wonder, the excitement, the sheer unreality of fantasy may transcend the attitudes of its authors. That I can still enjoy it despite occasional outbursts of rage and disgust is a tribute to the genre -- a tribute I'm still not certain it deserves...
Source: http://www.reindeermotel.com/CHARLES/charles_blog42_dieblackdog.html

So Saunders didn't like the racism he saw in fantasy, and so he wrote his own stories that changed it.

But then, I also don't have a problem with people like Milius who adapt others' work, even though it is stretched far from the original. I have enjoyed many loosely adapted movies like Conan, Men in Black, and The Wiz.

What I dislike is purely negative criticizing and whining. I prefer showing examples of what one likes - or better yet, helping create such.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: oggsmash on October 23, 2022, 07:41:52 AM
  He can make whatever he wants IMO...but...he uses the term "fellow whites" in a sentence and becomes a literal meme.  Using language like that is from a position of agenda and not simple create something new.  I am not whining I am just point out a "fellow" who might not be a fellow trying to use that as some odd way to legitimize his criticism of a genre.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 23, 2022, 08:23:51 AM
I don't argue that Brackenbury didn't create his own thing -- I argue that he's ignorant.  Didn't even mention Saunders, for just one example.  And I don't think Saunders saw any "racism" in traditional fantasy -- do you have proof that he did?  Because he wanted to write about black people who "looked like him" doesn't mean he only did it to strike a blow against The Man.  Because he was interested in traditional African folklore doesn't mean he had a beef with white people interested in their own culture.   If REH or other writers had ever written a non-white as a main character, SJWs would have accused them of cultural appropriation; if they stick to white protagonists, they're racist.  As another poster on this board wisely observed (and I'm sorry I can't remember who it was so I can give proper credit), when it comes to dealing with SJWs, the only way to win is not to play.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 23, 2022, 11:39:53 AM
I don't argue that Brackenbury didn't create his own thing -- I argue that he's ignorant.  Didn't even mention Saunders, for just one example.  And I don't think Saunders saw any "racism" in traditional fantasy -- do you have proof that he did?  Because he wanted to write about black people who "looked like him" doesn't mean he only did it to strike a blow against The Man.

I just quoted from his essay. I think you missed it. I'll post again for clarity, and I'd invite you to read the full essay in the source link.

Quote from: Charles Saunders
"Die, Black Dog!"
A Look at Racism in Fantasy Literature

For an avid reader of fantasy who happens to be black, the exclamation in the title of this essay pops up far too often for comfort. The genre-related problems of reader identification and suspension of disbelief become immeasurably magnified with these words, because the ethnic epithets that spew from the mouth of a Conan are all-too-well represented in the grim world of reality. When blatant racism does occur in a fantasy tale, the black reader is rudely jerked from its escapist world. And when the escapism dies, so does the story.

Even a cursory examination of the roots of today’s fantasy reveals a great deal about the ethnic attitudes of some of its pioneering authors. I refer, of course, to the Unholy Trinity of the Golden Age of the Pulps: Howard, Lovecraft, and Smith. Though pure fantasy can be traced back to Homer, the sword-and-sorcery that is popular today was born in the pages of Weird Tales. Unfortunately, these beginnings were steeped in racism, as is every other American institution.
Quote from: Charles Saunders
And that brings me to the point of answering the question that those who are still reading this must be asking by now; “If you don’t like it, why in Crom's name don't you stop reading it? But I do like fantasy. It is my favorite form of literature. What I don't like is the racism in it.

Being a black fantasy buff can be a somewhat schizoid existence. It is another instance of cognitive dissonance. On one hand, I often feel like killing certain authors, even while I'm enjoying their stories. On the other, I sometimes feel that the wonder, the excitement, the sheer unreality of fantasy may transcend the attitudes of its authors. That I can still enjoy it despite occasional outbursts of rage and disgust is a tribute to the genre -- a tribute I'm still not certain it deserves...

Source: http://www.reindeermotel.com/CHARLES/charles_blog42_dieblackdog.html

Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: I on October 24, 2022, 10:54:39 AM
OK, I stand corrected on Saunders.  You are obviously more informed on this subject than I am.  I see he wasn't immune to squealing "racism" every time he saw an author like REH writing about people his own color.  Good thing they didn't write about non-white heroes too, or Saunders would have been squealing about cultural appropriation as well.  I now think quite a bit less of him.  Thanks for the tip-off; I do appreciate it.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 24, 2022, 12:41:44 PM
OK, I stand corrected on Saunders.  You are obviously more informed on this subject than I am.  I see he wasn't immune to squealing "racism" every time he saw an author like REH writing about people his own color.  Good thing they didn't write about non-white heroes too, or Saunders would have been squealing about cultural appropriation as well.  I now think quite a bit less of him.  Thanks for the tip-off; I do appreciate it.

You're welcome. More information is always better. In fairness to Saunders, though, I feel I should also quote some of the things that R.E. Howard wrote about race in real life. In reference to a trial in Honolulu where native Hawaiians were accused of rape, he wrote:

Quote from: R.E. Howard
I know what would have happened to them in Texas.  I don’t know whether an Oriental smells any different than a nigger when he’s roasting, but I’m willing to bet the aroma of scorching hide would have the same chastening effect on his surviving tribesman.

He also wrote to Novalyne Price saying,

Quote from: R.E. Howard
“[…] I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town.  Chances are they might tar and feather him.”

and after a negative reaction, he returned,

Quote from: R.E. Howard
“Let me tell you something, girl, that you don’t seem to know.  Those people come from a different line.  They have different blood - ”

To add, here is the start of his story entitled "The Last White Man",

Quote from: R.E. Howard
THE MAN SHIVERED in the coolness of the early morning. He shifted his body to relieve the pressure on his elbows.

Cautiously he peered up over the great boulder in front of him, and down the mountain side. Fire twinkled there and the man cursed. An obscene song floated up to him and his curses deepened. The song was in a rich, guttural voice.

The man was a wonder, physically. Over six feet in height, his chest and shoulders were those of a giant. Weighing far over two hundred pounds, he yet gave the impression of sinuous speed. His face was sullen, savage, almost primitive, small black eyes glittering through tangled strands of sandy hair. In one hand he clutched a rifle. A curved scimitar of surprising proportions lay beside him.

He was a splendid example of a wonderful race. A race which reached physical perfection, sank to the depths of degeneracy and then regained the heights just before their fall. He was the last. He was thinking as he lay there, watching the camps of his enemies.

What heights his race had reached before luxuries, idleness and pleasures had sapped their might; had made of them a race of degenerate weaklings. He cursed beneath his breath.

There had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.
cf. https://archive.org/details/howard-collector-05-1964-summer/page/22/mode/2up

And to add a few quotes from later in the story:

Quote from: R.E. Howard
At first the white race held its own.

But not for long. The blacks were physical giants, mighty fighting organisms, whose highest wish was slaughter and plunder.

That century long warfare! The man thrilled with a savage pride as he reviewed the wonderful battle the whites gave, overwhelmed as they were with odds of a hundred to one.
...
Quote from: R.E. Howard
The last white man laughed with savage, unholy glee.

The black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons.

They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It was dawning. The last white man looked about him; gathered his weapons. The rush would soon come.

The story isn't very long - you can read the full text at my link. There are plenty of other writings and stories where Howard shows his thoughts on race. These are just a sampling.
Title: Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
Post by: jhkim on October 25, 2022, 01:07:00 PM
OK, I stand corrected on Saunders.  You are obviously more informed on this subject than I am.  I see he wasn't immune to squealing "racism" every time he saw an author like REH writing about people his own color.  Good thing they didn't write about non-white heroes too, or Saunders would have been squealing about cultural appropriation as well.  I now think quite a bit less of him.  Thanks for the tip-off; I do appreciate it.

Hey, I.

To be clear - I didn't mean to shut down conversation, and I didn't intend any offense against you. I have also greatly enjoyed many of R.E. Howard's stories, and I ran a number of Conan games. Here's notes on one, for example:

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/

But despite enjoying his writings, I am opposed to his racial attitudes.