Quote from: Christopher Brady;1069843The problem is that D&D, especially early editions, your stats are locked.  Thing is, it doesn't work that way.  You start practicing with a sword, your strength and dexterity (In D&D terms) doesn't stay at 9, it increases, as does your endurance.

In practical terms, a player doesn't care about "Dexterity" or whatever, they care whether their character can hit so-and-so, and whether they can take and/or evade several hits from so-and-son.

In AD&D1e there is no "sword" skill, you're just proficient or not in however many weapons, and your general combat skill rises with level, for example fighters improve by +2 every 2 levels for the first several. A +1 to hit is like going from 16 to 17 Strength, or up a slot in percentile, except you don't get the damage bonus. So in effect you become more skilled at hitting with the sword as you go up levels.

As for avoiding being hit, as I've said before level-rising hit points can be taken as an abstraction of parrying/dodging and accumulating fatigue. In game terms we could have either, with rising level,

- HP stay the same, but difficulty of hitting you rises
- HP rise, difficulty of hitting you stays the same

The first better represents the reality of improving a combat skill. BUT an additional factor in lengthy combats is fatigue making it both harder for you to hit, and easier to hit you. Not many games model this. Classic Traveller tries to model the attacker being fatigued and losing skill by saying that after Endurance melee attacks you have a malus to your roll, but it's not often used as there are enough things to keep track of already, and it doesn't model the fatigued person being easier to hit.

So if you take the second option then the abstraction of Hit Points allows you to have an abstraction of fatigue making it easier for you to be hit; of course your Armor Class doesn't change, but with enough hits you reach a point where a subsequent hit might take you down. It doesn't model the fatigued person being less likely to hit others, however this comes about indirectly as a prudent player will have their low-HP character pull back a bit.

Now, I doubt this was all thought through when they came up with it. But what Arneson came up with by the chance of pulling a copy of Ironclads during a game session is actually a fairly elegant solution to things. Obviously it has its limits, and common sense has to be applied, so that yes a bound character can be slain in one blow, and no your 10th level dwarf can't jump off a 1,000ft cliff and expect to survive. But it works fairly well, or as well as any abstraction can work.

Quote from: moonsweeper;1070259I think you are looking at this backward...randomly roll the stats and THEN decide the class.  Then assume he trained for that class growing up.  If the stats really match his class well, that was him doing what he was naturally gifted to do.  If the stats don't match as well to the class you want to play, then that was him really wanting to be a fighter

This is once again for me to talk about Fabio, the Most Beautiful Fighter in the Cosmos. 3d6 down the line, his best stat was CHA17, I can't recall the rest. Early on he avoided what would have been some really difficult fights by parleying, and later when treasure afforded it he hired men-at-arms, and equipped and treated them well. In AD&D1e and 2e (this was 2e  - not my choice) more important than bonuses to hit is having a lot of attacks, so 5 or so men-at-arms are actually fairly formidable. Because he equipped and treated them well and had 17 Charisma, they were very loyal to him.

He made it up to 5th level and then was turned to stone by a medusa. The other players were determined to come back and rescue him but I said: no, it is only right that the Most Beautiful Fighter in the Cosmos be turned into a statue.

You don't need to choose your character class based on the best stat you rolled up. Be imaginative.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1070170In 5e that shortsword that archers tend to keep as a side weapon can be used with Dexterity on the attack & damage rolls. With Strength 8, the archer can carry 80 lbs. of gear without any negative effects of encumbrance, so Strength gets dumped hard.

If using the laxer encumbrance system, they can carry 120. If using full on encumbrance rules, though, the penalties start at 5lbs. x str., so 40.

Quote from: Franky;1070173I had the impression wishes were mainly used to undo PC death's, rather than bump ability scores.

Again, just playing off what was put in the AD&D rules published 3 years later, it would seem that rampant wishing-yourself-higher-stats was at least in some gaming groups much of a thing (such that preventative steps needed to be taken, at least).

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1070305In practical terms, a player doesn't care about "Dexterity" or whatever, they care whether their character can hit so-and-so, and whether they can take and/or evade several hits from so-and-son.

In AD&D1e there is no "sword" skill, you're just proficient or not in however many weapons, and your general combat skill rises with level, for example fighters improve by +2 every 2 levels for the first several. A +1 to hit is like going from 16 to 17 Strength, or up a slot in percentile, except you don't get the damage bonus. So in effect you become more skilled at hitting with the sword as you go up levels.

As for avoiding being hit, as I've said before level-rising hit points can be taken as an abstraction of parrying/dodging and accumulating fatigue. In game terms we could have either, with rising level,

Once we define attributes as things you can train to get better at, exactly where attributes should end and where class and level take over becomes pretty nebulous. It is interesting to see that, in 5e, attribute contribution stayed similar to 3e (has the same progression, although clearly getting a stat of X in each edition represents significantly different commitment), while the level contribution (proficiency bonus vs. 3e's to-hit or spell save DC calculations) declined. Given the general trend of moving towards seeking inter-character-choice-balance, it makes me wonder if point-buy/stat-arrays are becoming more of an assumed choice*.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1070320If using the laxer encumbrance system, they can carry 120. If using full on encumbrance rules, though, the penalties start at 5lbs. x str., so 40.

You are correct, but note that the "laxer encumbrance system," aka carrying capacity, is the default rule while the other is a variant option. So by default, the weakest of PCs can haul around 90lbs. without any issues, and that's on a kobold or one of the incredibly rare races that actually has a -2 Strength racial adjustment.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1070322You are correct, but note that the "laxer encumbrance system," aka carrying capacity, is the default rule while the other is a variant option. So by default, the weakest of PCs can haul around 90lbs. without any issues, and that's on a kobold or one of the incredibly rare races that actually has a -2 Strength racial adjustment.

Right, agreed. I'm just still not clear on where the "the archer can carry 80 lbs. of gear without any negative effects of encumbrance" thing comes from. In neither model is 80 lbs., a cutpoint for no-consequences.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1070323Right, agreed. I'm just still not clear on where the "the archer can carry 80 lbs. of gear without any negative effects of encumbrance" thing comes from. In neither model is 80 lbs., a cutpoint for no-consequences.

The 80 lbs. was my error at thinking the multiple was (10 x Strength) lbs. I agreed with your correction that it should have been (15 x Strength) lbs. in the first three words of my reply. I then expanded the (now corrected) minimum to cover kobolds.