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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 12:21:11 PM

Title: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 12:21:11 PM
With all the talk about D&D - anyone play or considering playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder? I'm a D&D refugee and Savage Worlds has increasingly become a thing at my table.

I've been running it - and modified it for 1e Greybox Realms style play, and it's pretty freakin cool. I've removed the Pathfinder specific stuff, and just running it on the chassis, modifying things to fit the 1e aesthetic, and its humming right along.

It's currently fulfilling my desire to play/GM D&D-style fantasy without the D&D d20 system. I find it runs faster. It's higher octane in the sense that with all that is available in Savage Worlds (SWADE edition) you can tune things up/down to your own desire with very little effort, and without breaking the system.

Classes are there*, all the D&D magic items from the DMG are there. The Bestiary is rock solid - minus trademarked monsters which you can fairly easily recreate.

It's D&D 99% recreated on the Savage Worlds chassis. And it plays great. As I mentioned above, as I've been running the game I've been re-designing elements to represent 1e D&D Greybox Realms, rather than 3.x Pathfinder. Clerics now operate closer to Eric Boyds Powers and Pantheons (i.e. Clerics are closer to being Speciality Priests rather than a generic Cleric). I'm incorporating Martial Arts rules with nods to Oriental Adventures, as well as weapon-schools for European fighting arts. I retuned the races to reflect the Realms - there are definite differences in the races between Pathfinder and the Realms, plus I'm greasing the pipe for Spelljammer later down the road.

*Classes in Savage Pathfinder are an Edge framework like in the Savage Worlds Rifts game, where they've recreated the D&D classes as a package. And each Class Edge translates the tropes of the D&D Classes to Savage Worlds and scales it up by Rank, much like D&D does in leveling. The outcome is that some classes are more robust and better than their D&D counterparts. Notable ones being Sorcerers - whose Bloodlines have their own mini-lines of development that are almost as good as their spellcasting components. They're very different than their D&D counterparts that always felt like Charisma-Wizards.

the best part is "Class Edges" in Savage Pathfinder are optional. Each Class has a lot of features, but they have some drawbacks. You do *not* have to play with a Class Edge. The assumption for having a Class Edge is a nod to the assumptions of early editions of D&D that held PC's are "special" and highly trained individuals that spent years learning their respective craft. This is reflected in all the specifics of their Class Edge package. You do not *need* to choose a Class Edge, and you're compensated in this by getting a few other skills, and you can learn a Class Edge in-game or pick up new Class Edges at the discretion of your GM - as a nod to Multiclassing.

Anyhow... I've been running it. I'm digging it. I'm about to drop a bunch of money on terrain for battle-mat play (including possibly a 3d printer) - yeah I'm that much into it. If anyone has other insights or comments or questions - let's hear it!

I'm interested in what others (if any) have to say about their experiences with it thus far. Or if you're interested and have questions - I'd be happy to try and answer them, especially in regards to play-differences between D&D and Savage Worlds...
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 12:44:27 PM
I for one am curious about the system, why don't you create a thread explaining it?

I mean imagine you're teaching it so someone can GM/Play the thing.

By "the system" I mean SW Pathfinder and how you've modified it to get the results you're getting.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: soundchaser on September 29, 2021, 12:49:47 PM
I am waiting for it in distribution. So far, it looks to be only in the preorder via Pinnacle's late pledge thing. I almost pulled the trigger since my I had very fond memories of Rise of the Runelords back in the day (done with 3.5 and then 4e D&D, actually). I'd like to hear more details, and whether the $300 RL pledge seems worth it. I thought that it was a little steep (in light of my $220 Deadlands all-in, but I suppose paper and production costs are way up).
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 01:08:08 PM
Me....A modded (300+ page behemoth) version of it. Message me for PDFs if your interested.

Im using it to run a the Adventure 'Zietgiest' made for 4e, PF, and 5e, and importing some 4e elements so it would run better (like item rarities and rituals).
Pretty cool so far. I have implimented all of Cyrils supplements & some other ones.

What I liked was that players can still feel cool without feeling like they can do everything. My PCs actually purchased some potions for once and used the favor system to assist them because before in regular PF they could just do everything themselves and buckets of resources meant that healing was trivial.

Edit: I would say the system needs a somewhat experienced GM. Bennies are your PCs HP effectively (more like second chances) and your in control of handing them out (beyond a baseline). In that sense you very directly control your PCs longevity.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 29, 2021, 01:18:31 PM
Still playing SW Rifts myself. Honestly, if I want to play PF, I'll probably just play PF. More power to Pinnacle though.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 02:00:50 PM
I for one am curious about the system, why don't you create a thread explaining it?

I mean imagine you're teaching it so someone can GM/Play the thing.

By "the system" I mean SW Pathfinder and how you've modified it to get the results you're getting.

I'll explain it here since I'm not sure how popular Savage Worlds is around these parts...

Like Shrieking, I'm trying to get the Pathfinder context-specific stuff out and the stuff I want in doing the least amount of work possible. That said my documents are already getting into the 100-page mark... so heh. In my defense a lot of it is new content specific for my Greybox take which is 1e with 2e elements.

So for example...

The Savage Pathfinder Cleric takes its queues directly from from Pathfinder 1e Core. Clerics there are pretty generic and they're healbots, lets face it. I *never* liked that in D&D and I like it even less in Pathfinder where they went ALL-IN on the idea. To me Clerics should be representatives of their Deities and should reflect that in their abilities. 'Faiths and Pantheons' is one of the best books ever written for D&D in any edition. It remains the standard for me in how Clerics should be written up. So that means converting all the deities from the Greybox to Savage Pathfinder, and retooling the Domains to match. It also means reworking the Cleric Class Edge to better reflect these changes.

Savage Worlds Cleric Rework (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fTXZk7y1twpwJgtXcIL5dspPN-jgcWQ_B4p72k9S6iY/edit?usp=sharing)

So now, not all Clerics can even Heal. Only those whose Gods have it in their purview. I've listed the general creeds and dogmas of their respective deities so players can play confidently on how they want to express their characters without trying to pigeonhole themselves into their alignment ideas. Yes Alignment exists, but the dogmas are more important. I'll be adding more deities later - like all the non-human ones. The Realms have a LOT of Gods and Pantheons...

New/Different Races
I've also retooled the races. Savage Pathfinder goes with a 4-point score for their Pathfinder races, which is good. However their versions of the standard D&D races are specific to Pathfinder's Golarion setting. I was aiming for Greybox Realms - with a few tweaks tossed in to nod towards directions I'm going later - Spelljammer (so Sun Elf stats are also Imperial Elf stats).

Savage Realms Races (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m6_mSshtyWmuL5UlF8k_43z43ahoTjiSM3DuECFvhtc/edit?usp=sharing)

I'm working on Martial Arts system pulling inspiration from Oriental Adventures, as well as fighting styles from 7th Sea leveraging the Savage Worlds Pirates of the Spanish Main fencing school systems. It's still a work in progress (as is everything).

New Classes
I'm also working on new Class Edges - Currently working on the Cavalier from 1e D&D, with elements from the Pathfinder game I liked. It's still rough, and I'm testing it out. I'm on tap to make more Orders for it. I really wanted to fix the Cavalier from being so optimal at being mounted, which 1e Cavaliers had going for them. I think I landed on a good balance so Cavalier players are dangerous mounted or on foot. This is largely due to the Savage Worlds system being flexible.

Savage Cavalier (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gpSfbSZOBJTJ11wyBRa8iaa8qPGg4IjSXZipWnOjmhQ/edit?usp=sharing)

I plan on making some Class Edges from Oriental Adventure as well - the Sohei, the Samurai, and the Kensei Prestige Edge. The Samurai will be built similar but different in emphasis to the Cavalier. The Sohei will be a "Mystic" similar to the Ranger or Paladin in Savage Pathfinder, but with a different emphasis to create distinction between it and the Monk. The Kensei is still under a lot of consideration from me... Some OA classes will not need creating as the Savage Pathfinder classes already cover them - Ninja are Assassins, etc.

Likewise I'll be doing a pass over the Al-Qadim classes. Pretty sure the Sha'ir will get its own Class Edge. The others, we'll see.

Setting Rules -

I modified the Heavy* spellcasting modifier to be a Legendary quality, *because* I use the Heavy modifier rules as the Savage Rifts rule. This effectively lets me scale Pathfinder straight into Rift's level of power at Legendary (slightly earlier for some classes).

I also play that without the 4-wound limit. This is a modern D&Dism which I don't like, where it's exceedingly difficult to die. Dead is dead. Between the established rules and Bennies, PC's should have these things factored in before going into combat.

Savage Pathfinder does a good job of getting back to the meat-and-potatoes style play I like: Casters are powerful, but *really* frail. Warriors are super-dangerous in combat. But because of the system, it allows you to dial it out/in to get as granular as you like without missing a beat.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 02:06:03 PM
I personally don't like mages being like 7 distinct classes. I just collapsed Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer & wizard into 1 customizable class called 'mage'.

If they had anything super unique, I made that into edges they could take as part of that class.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 02:15:16 PM
I personally don't like mages being like 7 distinct classes. I just collapsed Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer & wizard into 1 customizable class called 'mage'.

If they had anything super unique, I made that into edges they could take as part of that class.

Well the beauty of SWADE is you can simply let any PC ad-hoc it without a Class at all. It's been interesting trying to get my D&D players to wrap their heads around that fact. A Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Bard could be replicated with specific Edge choices without necessarily being a "class".

All those old debates about "What is a Paladin?" - is it's a militant Cleric? Is it a Holy Fighter? blah blah blah - starts to evaporate when you realize in Savage Worlds, you can pick your skills, and "special abilities" and call yourself whatever the fuck you want and whoop ass exactly as you like to do it.

What is the functional difference between a Cleric with high Fighting and a Warrior with Arcane Background: Divine Magic that picks up the Champion Edge - and both join a group and call themselves Paladins? Then you have someone with a Paladin Class Edge fighting right next to them - all doing it differently yet very similar in theme only.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 02:18:14 PM
Well the beauty of SWADE is you can simply let any PC ad-hoc it without a Class at all. It's been interesting trying to get my D&D players to wrap their heads around that fact. A Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Bard could be replicated with specific Edge choices without necessarily being a "class".

True, its a case of if you want those mechanical benefits you have to grab those classes. If you want the Clerics healing you have to get that edge. Which is why I split 'Channel Energy' into its own edge so its not directly attached to cleric.

One of my players insisted on making a character without a class edge just for funzies, so this went over pretty well.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 02:19:28 PM
yeah that's what I love about it - you can skin that cat all day long.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 02:30:04 PM
yeah that's what I love about it - you can skin that cat all day long.

To me this has told me what I need to be most important out of a system:
Its core mechanics & advancement system.

All that other stuff is secondary. If the core is good, I can tweek good results out of it.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Krugus on September 29, 2021, 02:52:06 PM
After reading up on Savage worlds and listening to Brother tenbones preach the word of Savage.   I am a new convert to all things Savage!  Your sermon was just the thing I needed to finally kick the PF2e to the curb and my next campaign will be set in Savage Worlds Pathfinder (minus the kitchen sink setting!).

Thanks again Brother tenbones for saving me!

:)

No really I did get the SWPF (late backer) so I got the PDF's and printed out everything but the setting :)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GeekyBugle on September 29, 2021, 03:14:28 PM
Me....A modded (300+ page behemoth) version of it. Message me for PDFs if your interested.

Im using it to run a the Adventure 'Zietgiest' made for 4e, PF, and 5e, and importing some 4e elements so it would run better (like item rarities and rituals).
Pretty cool so far. I have implimented all of Cyrils supplements & some other ones.

What I liked was that players can still feel cool without feeling like they can do everything. My PCs actually purchased some potions for once and used the favor system to assist them because before in regular PF they could just do everything themselves and buckets of resources meant that healing was trivial.

Edit: I would say the system needs a somewhat experienced GM. Bennies are your PCs HP effectively (more like second chances) and your in control of handing them out (beyond a baseline). In that sense you very directly control your PCs longevity.

Are you offering to share the pdf? Or am I reading it wrong?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 03:17:13 PM
Are you offering to share the pdf? Or am I reading it wrong?

Yup. With a message.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 03:22:52 PM
After reading up on Savage worlds and listening to Brother tenbones preach the word of Savage.   I am a new convert to all things Savage!  Your sermon was just the thing I needed to finally kick the PF2e to the curb and my next campaign will be set in Savage Worlds Pathfinder (minus the kitchen sink setting!).

Thanks again Brother tenbones for saving me!

:)

No really I did get the SWPF (late backer) so I got the PDF's and printed out everything but the setting :)

My pleasure! May the Savage stay strong in you.

While there are mechanics that are adjacent to the core in SWADE, most of this stuff is just optional. There is very little outside of the normal task resolution that glues the system together. This is what makes it extremely powerful in the hands of a confident GM.

A casual glance across the line and across editions shows you the multitude of ways of doing magic, doing combat, etc. and the best part of it all is that it's ALL useful. I still use stuff from the previous editions and tweak them to fit the new SWADE conceits. It's trivial work at best.

So unlike D&D, specifically, you can have your cake and eat it too. And if something doesn't work as you want it too, it usually takes a tweak to get it where you want it without fear of damaging any other downstream systems. Most things plug into a few mechanics. You can run it "hardcore" and make it grim and gritty, you can use narrative mechanics (if you're into that kinda stuff) - it scales insanely well. And at the center of it all is the same Task Resolution mechanic.

The more I throw at it, the more it impresses me.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 03:35:08 PM
... so I plan to dive deeper into Shrieking Banshee's PDF tonight, I can't help but glance at it while I do my dayjob work. And I can tell there's a lot I already like about it.

The feel in my read-through is very "3e-era D&D" but the mechanics make it sing. There a couple of classes you wrote that I'm going to be using in my game right off the bat. You leveraged the SWADE design conceits and hit all the missing low-hanging fruit that Pathfinder didn't include (which is probably it's 300-pages.).

That said - I'm *digging it*. And it's a testament to the system that we both approached it from pretty different angles and mechanically I can drop 99% of what I've skimmed through into my game without missing a beat. I'm sure I'll find some rework you did for your setting specific reasons, which is totally fine. I'm looking forward to digging into this deep tonight.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: PencilBoy99 on September 29, 2021, 03:38:00 PM
Great stuff thanks for posting
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on September 29, 2021, 04:00:37 PM
  Anyone by chance know any release dates for the printed version?  I will be buying it, I ran a few sessions last year of D&D style fantasy with Savage Worlds, and I liked how it played a lot.  I am sure with specific edges and (I would guess some frameworks like what we see with Savage Rifts) frameworks it will be very much to my liking. 
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 04:12:17 PM
Printing production is happening right now. Final proofs are done. Then they gotta be shipped over. They're estimating early January before they're in our hands.

The boxset is pretty massive - like SWADE Core Essentials big.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on September 29, 2021, 04:14:51 PM
Printing production is happening right now. Final proofs are done. Then they gotta be shipped over. They're estimating early January before they're in our hands.

The boxset is pretty massive - like SWADE Core Essentials big.

  What will the box set have in it?  Core rules, Bestiary and a few knick knacks?  Funny thing about that SWADE core essentials, why did they decide to NOT put the core rule book in it?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 04:16:24 PM
Hey Shrieking - you wanna post running changes to the core rules you're using, here?

Might be good for everyone from the D&D side to talk about what they like and how it can be expressed in different ways within the same system.

Even from the D&D side, where players have an edition preference - those differences can co-exist with different expressions from D&D editions in the same Savage Worlds ecosystem. This is *especially* true of Classes, magic subsystems (you may like Vancian, or Spellpoints, or Pointless effects based - it all can exist in SW with a little bit of tweaking).
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on September 29, 2021, 04:16:58 PM
   I guess a better question is, will the retail box set be the same as the kickstarter set?   
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 04:33:02 PM
Printing production is happening right now. Final proofs are done. Then they gotta be shipped over. They're estimating early January before they're in our hands.

The boxset is pretty massive - like SWADE Core Essentials big.

  What will the box set have in it?  Core rules, Bestiary and a few knick knacks?  Funny thing about that SWADE core essentials, why did they decide to NOT put the core rule book in it?

Boxset will have a ton of stuff in it. Core Rules (169-page hardback), Bestiary, maps, Bennies (real poker SW poker chips), dice, screen (half sized gate-fold), archetype cards (oversized), Savage Worlds Deck (oversized), Power Cards, Status Cards, Chase Cards (for the Chase system) - all full-sized card decks), Power dials (eh), Hollows Last Hope Adventure. It's a big sucker.

I can't remember why the core rules didn't come in the original box-set - that boxset was pretty packed with stuff. Do you need it? Not really. If you're gonna play Savage World Pathfinder - I *do* recommend getting the SWADE Core Rules as well which is setting neutral. The Pathfinder Core book in the boxset uses the SWADE Core but has changed some things to be specific for Pathfinder.

there are some things in the SWADE Core that you could effortlessly port into the Savage Pathfinder game, and worth it imo.

Don't forget the Rise of the Runelords boxset too. Which covers the adventure path converted from Pathfinder in its entirety. I didn't opt in for this since I don't really need it. But from what I hear it's pretty great from those running it.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 29, 2021, 04:35:39 PM
   I guess a better question is, will the retail box set be the same as the kickstarter set?

As I understand it - it's pretty much the same. Plus you'll be able to pick up the specific stuff you want. Pretty sure you can do that now with SWADE Core  (https://www.amazon.com/Savage-Worlds-Adventure-S2P10023-Hensley/dp/1950082008/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Swade+core+rules&qid=1632947684&sr=8-2)rules. at $34? A STEAL.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 04:41:33 PM
Hey Shrieking - you wanna post running changes to the core rules you're using, here?

Might be good for everyone from the D&D side to talk about what they like and how it can be expressed in different ways within the same system.

Even from the D&D side, where players have an edition preference - those differences can co-exist with different expressions from D&D editions in the same Savage Worlds ecosystem. This is *especially* true of Classes, magic subsystems (you may like Vancian, or Spellpoints, or Pointless effects based - it all can exist in SW with a little bit of tweaking).

Sure.

Skills:

Common Knowledge is folded into smarts. Smarts just lacks a 'general use' like STR, or Vigor, so this rewards smart characters. Its removed as a starting skill and players get +1 starting skillpoint instead.

Linguistics: I always hated how every smart person was a linguist in D&D 3e and beyond. I made linguistics a skill, and you gain 1/2 its die size in new languages. You can also use it to roll to understand languages you don't have.
Collapsed Boating, Piloting and ground vehicles into 1 skill with specialties. Vehicles don't come up in the setting enough to need 3 separate skills, but I added specialties so that there is some difference.
Also got rid of gambling entirely and made it a situation rule using academics or thievery. Gambling is not a significant enough event to need its own skill.
Added 3 specialties to Notice: Social, Physical, Mental. In my game social stuff is important, so I want "the face" to be a role that exists. I also added original edges related to being the face: Natural liar (lie well and bypass all lie detectors and can't be compelled to tell the truth even with magic) & judge of character (detect lies better and spend a benny to figure out lies automatically for a social encounter). This means that supernatural lie detection can't pierce natural liars except judges of character.

Hinderances:

Characters start with 4 bonus points of hinderances because they work for the government and have arch-foes. I did this to give some build-wiggle room and so that every player didn't pick the same hinderances. 2 of the 4 hinderances must be invested in a professional edge, or into a theme edge.
A theme edge is like a class edge but for classes specific to the setting. Theme edges are very powerful, and scale with rank. But you only get 1 of them.

Supplements:
This has cyrils materials rolled into it. Tomes & Prayers, Wizards & mystics, Warlords & something else, shapeshifting & metamorphosis, and companions & familiars. My players where new to SW so I compiled the materials into one book for ease of reading. And like a fucking crazy person I copy pasted the materials into it and edited them so that it flows better. As a result I have all the materials memorized by heart.

Class edges:

I found the armor restrictions as they where made stupid, so I instead said they limit your class abilities, not ALL your abilities. And I made the arcane armor edge work for class armor restrictions in place of only magic classes (but only 1 class at a time).

I folded Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric & druid into one class that you build yourself using Cyrils Wizards & Mystics system (and because mixing wizard & sorcerer is too cheasable). But I added psychics & Alchemists because they are different enough.

Powers:

Used powers from tomes & prayers over the spell versions in PF and used amplifiers. It does allow 'pre-buffing', but its more difficult and limits your character more. So if you want to buff the party with deflection for the whole day, you can do that but your points are invested and don't return until the effect ends. So it can actually be significantly better to cast buffs during combat instead of making all day effects.

Rituals & 4e stuff.

I like 4e rituals. While amplifiers do grant access to strong warpy powers, they require investment. 4e rituals allow for magic specific to the setting, and as they cost money to use they are not a win button to push all the time. Works pretty well with the dramatic task system.
Also some theme edges & prestige classes have 'encounter' powers, but I won't loose sleep over including that.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on September 29, 2021, 06:03:47 PM
Printing production is happening right now. Final proofs are done. Then they gotta be shipped over. They're estimating early January before they're in our hands.

The boxset is pretty massive - like SWADE Core Essentials big.

  What will the box set have in it?  Core rules, Bestiary and a few knick knacks?  Funny thing about that SWADE core essentials, why did they decide to NOT put the core rule book in it?

Boxset will have a ton of stuff in it. Core Rules (169-page hardback), Bestiary, maps, Bennies (real poker SW poker chips), dice, screen (half sized gate-fold), archetype cards (oversized), Savage Worlds Deck (oversized), Power Cards, Status Cards, Chase Cards (for the Chase system) - all full-sized card decks), Power dials (eh), Hollows Last Hope Adventure. It's a big sucker.

I can't remember why the core rules didn't come in the original box-set - that boxset was pretty packed with stuff. Do you need it? Not really. If you're gonna play Savage World Pathfinder - I *do* recommend getting the SWADE Core Rules as well which is setting neutral. The Pathfinder Core book in the boxset uses the SWADE Core but has changed some things to be specific for Pathfinder.

there are some things in the SWADE Core that you could effortlessly port into the Savage Pathfinder game, and worth it imo.

Don't forget the Rise of the Runelords boxset too. Which covers the adventure path converted from Pathfinder in its entirety. I didn't opt in for this since I don't really need it. But from what I hear it's pretty great from those running it.

  Oh, I have lots of SWADE stuff, core rules, boxed set for rifts (SWADE version), 3 of the setting books for savage rifts and the boxed set they sold for SWADE (that seemed to have everything BUT the core rules in it).  So I am for sure at this point a SW fan.  I wonder if they held off on a SWADE version of SW fantasy to make more of a niche for Savage pathfinder (have a good bit of the SW stuff as well before the SWADE edition). 
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 06:06:07 PM
I wonder if they held off on a SWADE version of SW fantasy to make more of a niche for Savage pathfinder (have a good bit of the SW stuff as well before the SWADE edition).

I think its more of an attempt to drum up fans from different series. SW is slowly gainig popularity through its crossovers, and thats good.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on September 29, 2021, 06:12:36 PM
I wonder if they held off on a SWADE version of SW fantasy to make more of a niche for Savage pathfinder (have a good bit of the SW stuff as well before the SWADE edition).

I think its more of an attempt to drum up fans from different series. SW is slowly gainig popularity through its crossovers, and thats good.

   I just wanted them to pop out a SWADE version (not that I need it, I have the Fantasy Companion) that I would happily buy.   I thought it was very well done and was pretty close to simulating D&D (though less tightly I think than how I see they have done Pathfinder regarding professions/classes).    It does seem as if they are gaining audience, and I am glad of that, as it is my second favorite system, and on some days...maybe my favorite.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 29, 2021, 06:15:40 PM
I just wanted them to pop out a SWADE version (not that I need it, I have the Fantasy Companion) that I would happily buy.

Try Cyrils list of supplemental materials. Its got what you want.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Krugus on September 29, 2021, 06:36:47 PM
I just found Savage Earthdawn!   

I'm going to convert all those spells over to my setting :)

I'll have to look at the edges to see what I might modify/fit into my setting as well.









Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 11:19:30 AM
  Oh, I have lots of SWADE stuff, core rules, boxed set for rifts (SWADE version), 3 of the setting books for savage rifts and the boxed set they sold for SWADE (that seemed to have everything BUT the core rules in it).  So I am for sure at this point a SW fan.  I wonder if they held off on a SWADE version of SW fantasy to make more of a niche for Savage pathfinder (have a good bit of the SW stuff as well before the SWADE edition).

Oh! No the whole SW Pathfinder thing is separate from the SW Fantasy Companion. They said specifically the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion which is upcoming, will be different than Savage Worlds Pathfinder, and it of course will be compatible. It supposed to have new subsystems and new variants of existing rules specific for the genre.

I'm not sure the SW Pathfinder was even a thing before SWADE Fantasy Companion. As Shane is the guy doing the SWADE Fantasy Companion, I believe that was in development first, and I suspect when SW Pathfinder became a thing, that took some precedence and Shane may have pushed the SWADE Fantasy Companion back a bit to get things in line so there will be minimal overlap. This is pure conjecture on my part from having watched several interviews where they very briefly talked about it.

I believe at one point the SWADE Fantasy book was higher on the release schedule, but I suspect SW Pathfinder may have bumped it back a bit where in the development of Pathfinder it may have pushed the SWADE Fantasy Companion out in order to separate the two. The Superhero Companion for instance is just finishing up its crowdfunding (another thing I'm interested in as it's meant for multi-genre play - including Fantasy).

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on September 30, 2021, 02:22:19 PM
  Oh, I have lots of SWADE stuff, core rules, boxed set for rifts (SWADE version), 3 of the setting books for savage rifts and the boxed set they sold for SWADE (that seemed to have everything BUT the core rules in it).  So I am for sure at this point a SW fan.  I wonder if they held off on a SWADE version of SW fantasy to make more of a niche for Savage pathfinder (have a good bit of the SW stuff as well before the SWADE edition).

Oh! No the whole SW Pathfinder thing is separate from the SW Fantasy Companion. They said specifically the Savage Worlds Fantasy Companion which is upcoming, will be different than Savage Worlds Pathfinder, and it of course will be compatible. It supposed to have new subsystems and new variants of existing rules specific for the genre.

I'm not sure the SW Pathfinder was even a thing before SWADE Fantasy Companion. As Shane is the guy doing the SWADE Fantasy Companion, I believe that was in development first, and I suspect when SW Pathfinder became a thing, that took some precedence and Shane may have pushed the SWADE Fantasy Companion back a bit to get things in line so there will be minimal overlap. This is pure conjecture on my part from having watched several interviews where they very briefly talked about it.

I believe at one point the SWADE Fantasy book was higher on the release schedule, but I suspect SW Pathfinder may have bumped it back a bit where in the development of Pathfinder it may have pushed the SWADE Fantasy Companion out in order to separate the two. The Superhero Companion for instance is just finishing up its crowdfunding (another thing I'm interested in as it's meant for multi-genre play - including Fantasy).

  That's good.  I like the more general, modular building blocks with edges they used for Companion.  I also have to admit I like the frameworks they used for Rifts as well.  I think it makes it super easy for players to grasp what they want to do.  I always tell my guys...READ THE BOOK...but I have a feeling lots of GMs say that to no avail.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Chainsaw Surgeon on September 30, 2021, 02:54:38 PM
I have read these forums for a few years now, but this post was what finally got me to make an account.  I am a Savage Worlds convert and ran Curse of Strahd using a set of rules that ended up being very close to Savage Pathfinder.  The playtest came out late in the campaign and I was able to use the Wish power as part of the final session.  The biggest change I made was to go with the old Deluxe Edition Deadlands Blessed rules for clerics.  That seemed to work well for Ravenloft but probably not so much for a Realms approach so I am interested to see what you did for clerics, Tenbones.  I also ran Hollow's Last Hope for a group new to Savage Worlds and it was enough to convert them to try a longer campaign. 

I am a fan of Savage Rifts first and foremost, but like how Savage Pathfinder handles fantasy even if I am not that big a fan of Golarion.  It does have some rough edges, so I'd love to see Banshee's 300 page document. 

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 03:22:35 PM
I have read these forums for a few years now, but this post was what finally got me to make an account.  I am a Savage Worlds convert and ran Curse of Strahd using a set of rules that ended up being very close to Savage Pathfinder.  The playtest came out late in the campaign and I was able to use the Wish power as part of the final session.  The biggest change I made was to go with the old Deluxe Edition Deadlands Blessed rules for clerics.  That seemed to work well for Ravenloft but probably not so much for a Realms approach so I am interested to see what you did for clerics, Tenbones.  I also ran Hollow's Last Hope for a group new to Savage Worlds and it was enough to convert them to try a longer campaign. 

I am a fan of Savage Rifts first and foremost, but like how Savage Pathfinder handles fantasy even if I am not that big a fan of Golarion.  It does have some rough edges, so I'd love to see Banshee's 300 page document.

Welcome to Mos Eisley!

I posted a link to my Savage Realms document upthread (those are links not just text). Mind you - they're not for publication, I'm using them in my home campaign and they're first drafts. I have them linked to the Savage Worlds discord so I'm always taking comments on them. Feel free to tear them up and give me feedback on what works/doesn't work.

I'm using these as a testbed for a much larger project I'm working on, that I'm sure I'll talk about here on this forum at some point. If you like Rifts... then you might be interested in this thing I'm doing. It's sci-fantasy... imagine Gamma Worldish with a lot more D&D-ish vibe.

Edit: I've been going over Banshee's document last night. He's doing effectively what I'm doing, taking and bending the Savage Pathfinder/SWADE Core rules to the needs of his setting. My opinion is his setting feels very 3e but it's Savage Worlds mechanics to the bone. His selections of races and class-edges are very 3e - and this is *not* a bad thing at all. In fact it highlights the versatility of Savage Worlds. A few of his classes are nearly exactly what I was planning on doing for my own game, so I'm in his debt for doing a lot of the legwork, heh.

Most of his actual rules changes he's listed in this thread - and they make sense for his setting. This is what Savage Worlds is supposed to do. Because it allows for maximal flexibility in rules creation which plugs into the core task resolution which makes it completely modular for any other Savage Worlds game. As a Savage Rifts fan this means you can harness the sheer power of Rifts and plug it directly into your D&D fantasy game for God-level play if you wanted with VERY little effort.

This is something D&D has *never* been able to do well.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Chainsaw Surgeon on September 30, 2021, 03:28:56 PM
Thanks.  I'll be looking at your docs as well.  I am most likely going to run Deadlands next, but my group always circles back to fantasy. 

I'll be watching for more info your project as it sounds interesting.  Speaking of Rifts, what did you think of how the Maxi-Killer Edge turned out?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on September 30, 2021, 03:31:52 PM
While not everybodies cup of tea, I am also planning on making 2 "boss" templates for people that want the "Cinematic/Video Gamey" boss fights: "The Full House", and "The Royal Flush".
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 03:49:48 PM
Thanks.  I'll be looking at your docs as well.  I am most likely going to run Deadlands next, but my group always circles back to fantasy. 

I'll be watching for more info your project as it sounds interesting.  Speaking of Rifts, what did you think of how the Maxi-Killer Edge turned out?

Juicers are hella-powerful. To date - precisely ZERO players have opted to play one despite the obvious draw. I've yet to see it in actual action. Since we switched campaigns when the Atlantis book dropped, I haven't had a chance to use it. Looking it over - it looks scary good.

In actual play?? I think it definitely has its niche - especially if you're playing Atlantis, which is a LOT more dangerous than regular North America so it's very appropriate. I don't think it's overpowered, anymore than anything else is in Rifts, lol. It's *all* over the top on purpose.

I'd love to have a player take it out on a test drive - but it will take total commitment. Which is what all Juicers and their derivatives demand of their players. I'm always down with anything requiring commitment.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 03:54:13 PM
Thanks.  I'll be looking at your docs as well.  I am most likely going to run Deadlands next, but my group always circles back to fantasy. 

I'll be watching for more info your project as it sounds interesting.  Speaking of Rifts, what did you think of how the Maxi-Killer Edge turned out?

Juicers are hella-powerful. To date - precisely ZERO players have opted to play one despite the obvious draw. I've yet to see it in actual action. Since we switched campaigns when the Atlantis book dropped, I haven't had a chance to use it. Looking it over - it looks scary good.

In actual play?? I think it definitely has its niche - especially if you're playing Atlantis, which is a LOT more dangerous than regular North America so it's very appropriate. I don't think it's overpowered, anymore than anything else is in Rifts, lol. It's *all* over the top on purpose.

I'd love to have a player take it out on a test drive - but it will take total commitment. Which is what all Juicers and their derivatives demand of their players. I'm always down with anything requiring commitment.
Huh. I was tempted to play a Crazy, myself, but opted for the Combat Cyborg instead when we started Savage Rifts.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on September 30, 2021, 04:08:24 PM
Man I *love* Combat Borgs. They're so freaking versatile. And with more options than you can shake a stick at. They really are a solid choice, you can't go wrong with them.

Plus except for very specific locations - there's no real social downside to playing one other than the onboard issues of the Framework itself. You can go nearly anywhere and you're almost always useful.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on September 30, 2021, 07:37:07 PM
Some things I've learned playing a 'borg.

While you're not invulnerable, chances are pretty good that even out of the box, you're going to be very resistant to any damage coming your way. Don't be afraid to mix it up or slug it out. In fact, most personal weapons will barely scratch you unless the GM gets REALLY lucky with his rolls.

Not all cybernetics are created equal. I don't recommend Embedded Combat Coding, for example, as it takes two Strain and 50 grand. If you need an edge, buy it on your next advance. Expensive augmentations like the Nano-Repair System or Synthetic Organ Replacement should be bought with Upgrade Edges, while cheaper toys such as Targeting Eye, Bionic Strength Augmentation, or the Climbing Package can be purchased with credits.

Taking Beyond the Limit does saddle you with one of the Crazy's Hindrances, but you can always spend an advance to eliminate that.

You're strong, so toting a nice big gun is ALWAYS an option for you. While you can't carry a vehicular weapon, there's plenty of heavy personal weapons to pick from.  There's also nothing that says you can't mount that big gun on a Built-In Ranged Weapon cybernetic.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Chainsaw Surgeon on September 30, 2021, 09:29:38 PM
I have played a Momano and have eyed the borg as something I would like to try.  I thought it might be cool to take the Small Hindrance and the cyber-disguise to emulate a hidden borg.   
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 01, 2021, 08:07:58 AM
I have played a Momano and have eyed the borg as something I would like to try.  I thought it might be cool to take the Small Hindrance and the cyber-disguise to emulate a hidden borg.
I've seen some homebrew concepts for borgs that are not CLEARLY borgs. They're a little weaker physically but tend to catch enemies off guard.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 11:52:09 AM
Savage Rifts will stand as an insanely high-ceiling of design for Savage Worlds for a few good reasons.

1) It's multi-genre. The core conceits of the game setting forced the design of its elements turned up to 11, which showcases the scaling power of Savage Worlds *across* multiple genres of play simultaneously.

2) This establishes a clear ceiling of play that is achievable and sustainable across those genres. Including genres not normally associated with stabilized play. D&D is horrible to play anywhere near this level of power for long periods.

3) Because of the design of the game - it's plug-and-play. What happens in your Savage Worlds "Normies" game, can potentially scale up to Savage Rifts god-level play. Hell you can port your characters from other Savage Worlds games directly into Rifts if you wanted. Conversely you can plug those Rifts sub-systems into your current Non-Rifts games to introduce new scales of power without missing a beat.

They really did a great job with the Savage Rifts design, and it only makes Savage Worlds writ-large better, even if you don't play Savage Rifts.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 01, 2021, 11:55:54 AM
Are there any rules in SW for adding modifications to weapons? That's been a glaring absence for me.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 12:24:07 PM
Are there any rules in SW for adding modifications to weapons? That's been a glaring absence for me.

Yeah if you look at the Heroes Journey Table there is a shit-ton of possible mods. These are for actual play, but they didn't inherently give a cost to DIY in the game.

PEG said if you wanted to do it in-game

Quote
They'd be 10x the cost of the normal weapon with a minimum of 200 credits.

Which is pretty badass when you look at those lists.

Edit: now they didn't SPECIFY this... but to bring it in-line with similar rules like in Savage Pathfinder, you may want to limit the number of such Mods. But that's on you.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2021, 12:28:19 PM
Are there any rules in SW for adding modifications to weapons? That's been a glaring absence for me.

You could rework the Enchantment System from Savage Pathfinder. Or grab some ideas from Stars Without number revised.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 01, 2021, 01:26:50 PM
Are there any rules in SW for adding modifications to weapons? That's been a glaring absence for me.

Yeah if you look at the Heroes Journey Table there is a shit-ton of possible mods. These are for actual play, but they didn't inherently give a cost to DIY in the game.

PEG said if you wanted to do it in-game

Quote
They'd be 10x the cost of the normal weapon with a minimum of 200 credits.

Which is pretty badass when you look at those lists.

Edit: now they didn't SPECIFY this... but to bring it in-line with similar rules like in Savage Pathfinder, you may want to limit the number of such Mods. But that's on you.
TEN TIMES the weapon cost? Pardon me?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 01, 2021, 02:20:44 PM
LOL hey that's what Clint said.

I think that's kind of the generic response to their prices. Mods like those on the list are pretty much like Enchantments you'd put on weapons in Savage Pathfinder.

I'd just cut the cost down. The selection of options, from that list, are *excellent*.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 01, 2021, 03:18:15 PM
LOL hey that's what Clint said.

I think that's kind of the generic response to their prices. Mods like those on the list are pretty much like Enchantments you'd put on weapons in Savage Pathfinder.

I'd just cut the cost down. The selection of options, from that list, are *excellent*.
I'll go back and take a look. The only house-ruled mod I've made so far (with the GM's blessing) is a variable autoloader for my borg's shoulder-mounted grenade launcher. It costs the same as the launcher itself, but gives me a 150 round magazine that can switch out loads instantly -- I can load 75 high-ex and 75 AP and swap between them each round. Downside, aside from the cost, is that reloading requires some help because of the magazine's placement, and it counts as Reload 3.

(Frankly, if I blow through 150 grenade rounds, being out of ammo is the LEAST of my problems.)

I was thinking of things like scopes (+range), extended magazines (+shots), improved gas-recoil (-recoil) or custom grips (+1 shooting). That sort of thing.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2021, 03:22:59 PM
I was thinking of things like scopes (+range), extended magazines (+shots), improved gas-recoil (-recoil) or custom grips (+1 shooting). That sort of thing.

While magic, the Savage Pathfinder enchantments are like that.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Eric Diaz on October 01, 2021, 06:16:50 PM
I'm not a fan of SW nor Pathfinder - so I completely ignored this.

However, browsing through the books, it does seem like the ideal amount of crunch for me (like I've mentioned in the other thread).

256 pages long sounds crunchier that I'd like, but I'm guessing smaller format, bigger fonts than D&D.

I LOVE how they did classes. Amazing stuff.

Also, I've now realized that, contrary to what I said in the other thread, you CAN go beyond 1d12 (I'm guessing "ad infinitum", since the dire bear has 1d12+1 strength, I wonder how strong a giant or dragon is).

I'm almost tempted to try it - or convert it to a d20 system, which doesn't seem absurd when you consider the optional  "proficiency die" rule in 5e.

Did someone house rules some kind of HP (or someway to avoid "shaken")? I remember this is a thing I didn't like about SW.

Also, is this in the OGL like PF or not?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 01, 2021, 06:23:27 PM
Did someone house rules some kind of HP (or someway to avoid "shaken")? I remember this is a thing I didn't like about SW.

Bennies are effectively HP. But this does not follow the usual D&D stylings of HP management and bloat. To me thats a feature, but maybe not  to you. You can always spend a benny to auto-unshake, even if you failed your roll to unshake.

There is a very low chance, but still a chance of a enemy plugging you even if your Legendary rank. It gets you thinking in a different way and encourages playing smart even when powerful.

Sadly it does not have an OGL, but they are quite supportive of fan stuff. Some of the best supplements are fan stuff.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Batjon on October 01, 2021, 09:02:37 PM
I backed it at the highest level and have all the PDFs currently.  I like it a great deal.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: bat on October 02, 2021, 01:16:26 PM
I backed at everything except Runelords and when I'm done with the Savage RIFTS mini-campaign I'm diving in. I might try incorporating usage dice from Black Hack for some things.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Krugus on October 03, 2021, 01:33:46 AM
I just ran a one shot for my regular group and we had a blast.   I've already recreated races for my homebrew setting as well as Rune system for Armor, Shields & Weapons for my setting.  Its one of the things I liked from PF2e was its rune system so I have a rough draft of it (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wYJd0SMQOupS3acGatAnHvSrUYvqlwMN/view?usp=sharing).     I also made a form fillable Character sheet (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FhVFBx2tc4sPJfiP0RkGkT8v9zMrL1eT/view?usp=sharing) for SWPF as well :)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Batjon on October 04, 2021, 10:03:53 AM
Thanks for that form-fillable character sheet!
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 04, 2021, 10:38:17 AM
I didn't get the Runelords boxset.

I'm re-considering it. I normally run sandboxes, but I'm having a good time with SW Pathfinder right now, and I'm interested in possibly running Runelords just for kicks.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ocule on October 04, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
I’m torn on having classes in my savage worlds game, and at the power level of savage pathfinder. I’d have liked a fantasy companion before this but we are starting up and adventure soon. Homebrew of course
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 04, 2021, 02:34:08 PM
I’m torn on having classes in my savage worlds game, and at the power level of savage pathfinder. I’d have liked a fantasy companion before this but we are starting up and adventure soon. Homebrew of course

As I told my player that died yesterday (to a Black Pudding! Man, such a cool old-school death!) when thinking of a new character...

"Shh! the secret is there really aren't any classes. It's all Edges!".

Now that's not entirely true, as the Class Edges have little bits of other Edges and Hindrances cooked into balance them out. But some of these are simply Edges they removed from the SWADE Core (like Martial Arts) and simply put them into a Class Edge (in this case the Monk). All these little nifty bonuses that Class Edges give are balanced with hindrances in the Class to reduce the effective cost down to whatever a normal Edge would be (2 starting points worth of features generally).

So obviously they couldn't do this in the Pathfinder book - but I'd like to have seen them do like what they did with the M.A.R.S. characters in Savage Rifts - where you have a flow-chart table for creating a character that's not one of the Iconic Frameworks (which are Hella-powerful by Savage Pathfinder standards. The Cyberknight is clocking in at over 100+ points and the Dragon is like 118+).

Instead for Pathfinder you can get a free Professional or Background Edge. Not as sexy, but if you think about it you can overcome a lot of that perceived disadvantage. Wizards can't wear armor - but you COULD make a character that takes Arcane Background: Magic and do what Wizards do - minus the school specialization/familiar etc. But who cares - you wear full plate (if you're strong enough), and you have no restriction on spell schools.

All I'm saying you don't *need* classes in your game if you don't want them. I'm looking forward to the Fantasy Companion too.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ocule on October 04, 2021, 02:45:32 PM
I’m torn on having classes in my savage worlds game, and at the power level of savage pathfinder. I’d have liked a fantasy companion before this but we are starting up and adventure soon. Homebrew of course

As I told my player that died yesterday (to a Black Pudding! Man, such a cool old-school death!) when thinking of a new character...

"Shh! the secret is there really aren't any classes. It's all Edges!".

Now that's not entirely true, as the Class Edges have little bits of other Edges and Hindrances cooked into balance them out. But some of these are simply Edges they removed from the SWADE Core (like Martial Arts) and simply put them into a Class Edge (in this case the Monk). All these little nifty bonuses that Class Edges give are balanced with hindrances in the Class to reduce the effective cost down to whatever a normal Edge would be (2 starting points worth of features generally).

So obviously they couldn't do this in the Pathfinder book - but I'd like to have seen them do like what they did with the M.A.R.S. characters in Savage Rifts - where you have a flow-chart table for creating a character that's not one of the Iconic Frameworks (which are Hella-powerful by Savage Pathfinder standards. The Cyberknight is clocking in at over 100+ points and the Dragon is like 118+).

Instead for Pathfinder you can get a free Professional or Background Edge. Not as sexy, but if you think about it you can overcome a lot of that perceived disadvantage. Wizards can't wear armor - but you COULD make a character that takes Arcane Background: Magic and do what Wizards do - minus the school specialization/familiar etc. But who cares - you wear full plate (if you're strong enough), and you have no restriction on spell schools.

All I'm saying you don't *need* classes in your game if you don't want them. I'm looking forward to the Fantasy Companion too.
m
Arcane background magic still comes with the same drawback of no armor since you’d have to use the version from savage pathfinder and no epic magic. You’ll hump yourself pretty hard if you don’t take a class. Only of my players too arcane background magic and the fighter class edge so he can make an eldritch knight by seasoned
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 04, 2021, 02:54:43 PM
Sure! but you're not going to break the game by allowing it. (Edit: I should add the armor restriction penalty is probably the most complained about rule in Savage Pathfinder, since traditionally it's never been an issue in Savage Worlds. It's a vestigial thing they're pulling from "D&D" tradition to add Pathfinder verisimilitude)

Savage Worlds can handle it. One of the downsides of this being "Pathfinder" is the fact they translation includes things specific to D&D *and* Pathfinder. But the core mechanics are still Savage Worlds.

From your perspective - removing classes writ-large will *not* hurt your game AT ALL. You could remove those Class Edges and play straight up with SWADE Core + whatever gear, Powers out of the Savage Pathfinder, and sprinkle anything from other Savage settings mechanics you want in there and you'll be perfectly fine.

Just treat such casters as "a different school of magic". I've added Martial arts back into my game, so people can be martial artists without being a Monk, and monks can formally use specific Martial Art schools now with their Monk abilities, as an example. Now not all monks are the same. And not all open-hand fighters are actually Monks (but they don't have all the nifty Monk mystical abilities either.)



Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Marchand on October 05, 2021, 11:46:20 PM
Late to this and only skimmed thread, apologies if I missed this:

It also means reworking the Cleric Class Edge to better reflect these changes.

Savage Worlds Cleric Rework (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fTXZk7y1twpwJgtXcIL5dspPN-jgcWQ_B4p72k9S6iY/edit?usp=sharing)

So now, not all Clerics can even Heal. Only those whose Gods have it in their purview.

OK but does anyone ever want to play a non-healing Cleric?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 06, 2021, 11:24:02 AM
Late to this and only skimmed thread, apologies if I missed this:

It also means reworking the Cleric Class Edge to better reflect these changes.

Savage Worlds Cleric Rework (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fTXZk7y1twpwJgtXcIL5dspPN-jgcWQ_B4p72k9S6iY/edit?usp=sharing)

So now, not all Clerics can even Heal. Only those whose Gods have it in their purview.

OK but does anyone ever want to play a non-healing Cleric?

Sure! The point is making the options fit the conceits. If you're approaching the game from a Tank/Healer/DPS viewpoint, in my games you'll be fine as long as you accept the conceits that go along with your choices. I get people play with these basic assumptions about Clerics.

There is a reason Clerics have powers - you're an agent of a deity that has agendas. Healing people is not high on the list - or even in the wheelhouse of most deities. And the deities that DO heal people as part of their domain, do so for equally important reasons. Whatever that agenda is - it's your PC's agenda in my games (unless you want to be miserable)

The question to "heal" or "not heal" - is sometimes last thing my players are concerned with when playing a Cleric, because first and foremost I make the meaning of playing a Cleric important. Where we start the game, the disposition of the locals, the general view held by people of the God in question all factor into players in my game in their choice of playing a Cleric. Yes, healing is a factor, but not the only one.

My goals in my writeup are to be true to the context of the Gods, not to make all Clerics be the same.

Edit: Not all clergy are Clerics. There are members of the faith that simply are Priests that do the daily administration of the church-body. Clerics are special
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Marchand on October 07, 2021, 12:18:49 AM
OK but does anyone ever want to play a non-healing Cleric?

Sure! The point is making the options fit the conceits. If you're approaching the game from a Tank/Healer/DPS viewpoint, in my games you'll be fine as long as you accept the conceits that go along with your choices. I get people play with these basic assumptions about Clerics.

There is a reason Clerics have powers - you're an agent of a deity that has agendas. Healing people is not high on the list - or even in the wheelhouse of most deities. And the deities that DO heal people as part of their domain, do so for equally important reasons. Whatever that agenda is - it's your PC's agenda in my games (unless you want to be miserable)

Great stuff if you can get that level of player buy-in to the setting. I want to play in a game like that.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on October 07, 2021, 11:28:32 AM
It's super important for me as a GM to try and get my players to not play the mechanics of a game (though we all acknowledge their importance) but rather to see the mechanics as expressions of how the world operates.

This is why I've come to enjoy Savage Worlds vastly over d20. It's not that I can't get this same effect in d20 - it's that d20 is much more difficult to fine-tune when trying different things with it. It scales poorly by comparison.

With Savage Worlds I can drop a setting rule into the game and completely change one aspect of the game without affecting the other mechanical parts. The job for me as a GM is to produce the in-game reality of what these mechanics mean in the everyday lives of the PC's.

So having magical healing - as powerful as it is in Savage Pathfinder constricted to very specific types of Clerics reinforces the dogmas and practices of both the followers and layfolk as well as the general attitudes of the cultures in-game.

Conversely ALL the other Clerics have their place too, and some are not well liked, but they're all given their due. And of course those non-Healing Clerics have their own special abilities that make them respected/feared specifically as dictated by their creeds.

Players that walk into my games from the D&D-mindset find that my games will make demands of them that are very personal for their PC's because I want their PC's to have experiences and backgrounds that directly shape their views of the world, and therefore the game. And not all of them are "accurate" views. Just like not all philosophies and religions have all the answers. Most new players to my games get caught up in these "complexities" of competing dilemmas... and that's when their PC's come alive and stop being a pile of numbers and mechanics.

Savage Worlds is not the only answer to these problems - it's just an excellent tool for a GM to resolve those problems to the limits of their own skill.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: nielspeterdejong on November 23, 2022, 05:29:15 AM
I for one am curious about the system, why don't you create a thread explaining it?

I mean imagine you're teaching it so someone can GM/Play the thing.

By "the system" I mean SW Pathfinder and how you've modified it to get the results you're getting.

I'll explain it here since I'm not sure how popular Savage Worlds is around these parts...

Like Shrieking, I'm trying to get the Pathfinder context-specific stuff out and the stuff I want in doing the least amount of work possible. That said my documents are already getting into the 100-page mark... so heh. In my defense a lot of it is new content specific for my Greybox take which is 1e with 2e elements.

So for example...

The Savage Pathfinder Cleric takes its queues directly from from Pathfinder 1e Core. Clerics there are pretty generic and they're healbots, lets face it. I *never* liked that in D&D and I like it even less in Pathfinder where they went ALL-IN on the idea. To me Clerics should be representatives of their Deities and should reflect that in their abilities. 'Faiths and Pantheons' is one of the best books ever written for D&D in any edition. It remains the standard for me in how Clerics should be written up. So that means converting all the deities from the Greybox to Savage Pathfinder, and retooling the Domains to match. It also means reworking the Cleric Class Edge to better reflect these changes.

Savage Worlds Cleric Rework (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fTXZk7y1twpwJgtXcIL5dspPN-jgcWQ_B4p72k9S6iY/edit?usp=sharing)

So now, not all Clerics can even Heal. Only those whose Gods have it in their purview. I've listed the general creeds and dogmas of their respective deities so players can play confidently on how they want to express their characters without trying to pigeonhole themselves into their alignment ideas. Yes Alignment exists, but the dogmas are more important. I'll be adding more deities later - like all the non-human ones. The Realms have a LOT of Gods and Pantheons...

New/Different Races
I've also retooled the races. Savage Pathfinder goes with a 4-point score for their Pathfinder races, which is good. However their versions of the standard D&D races are specific to Pathfinder's Golarion setting. I was aiming for Greybox Realms - with a few tweaks tossed in to nod towards directions I'm going later - Spelljammer (so Sun Elf stats are also Imperial Elf stats).

Savage Realms Races (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1m6_mSshtyWmuL5UlF8k_43z43ahoTjiSM3DuECFvhtc/edit?usp=sharing)

I'm working on Martial Arts system pulling inspiration from Oriental Adventures, as well as fighting styles from 7th Sea leveraging the Savage Worlds Pirates of the Spanish Main fencing school systems. It's still a work in progress (as is everything).

New Classes
I'm also working on new Class Edges - Currently working on the Cavalier from 1e D&D, with elements from the Pathfinder game I liked. It's still rough, and I'm testing it out. I'm on tap to make more Orders for it. I really wanted to fix the Cavalier from being so optimal at being mounted, which 1e Cavaliers had going for them. I think I landed on a good balance so Cavalier players are dangerous mounted or on foot. This is largely due to the Savage Worlds system being flexible.

Savage Cavalier (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gpSfbSZOBJTJ11wyBRa8iaa8qPGg4IjSXZipWnOjmhQ/edit?usp=sharing)

I plan on making some Class Edges from Oriental Adventure as well - the Sohei, the Samurai, and the Kensei Prestige Edge. The Samurai will be built similar but different in emphasis to the Cavalier. The Sohei will be a "Mystic" similar to the Ranger or Paladin in Savage Pathfinder, but with a different emphasis to create distinction between it and the Monk. The Kensei is still under a lot of consideration from me... Some OA classes will not need creating as the Savage Pathfinder classes already cover them - Ninja are Assassins, etc.

Likewise I'll be doing a pass over the Al-Qadim classes. Pretty sure the Sha'ir will get its own Class Edge. The others, we'll see.

Setting Rules -

I modified the Heavy* spellcasting modifier to be a Legendary quality, *because* I use the Heavy modifier rules as the Savage Rifts rule. This effectively lets me scale Pathfinder straight into Rift's level of power at Legendary (slightly earlier for some classes).

I also play that without the 4-wound limit. This is a modern D&Dism which I don't like, where it's exceedingly difficult to die. Dead is dead. Between the established rules and Bennies, PC's should have these things factored in before going into combat.

Savage Pathfinder does a good job of getting back to the meat-and-potatoes style play I like: Casters are powerful, but *really* frail. Warriors are super-dangerous in combat. But because of the system, it allows you to dial it out/in to get as granular as you like without missing a beat.


I tried looking up the Races of Pathfinder in Savage Worlds, but it states that I need access to view the content.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on November 24, 2022, 12:18:01 AM
Weird. I can't edit the post... Probably because it's old.

Here try this.

Savage Pathfinder Share (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0Bxq91hwEiw3lZnYweWwwWm9UYkE?resourcekey=0-I73pDZBggaBkuvYqrbaGWg&usp=sharing)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: nielspeterdejong on November 24, 2022, 04:09:28 AM
Weird. I can't edit the post... Probably because it's old.

Here try this.

Savage Pathfinder Share (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0Bxq91hwEiw3lZnYweWwwWm9UYkE?resourcekey=0-I73pDZBggaBkuvYqrbaGWg&usp=sharing)

That works, thank you :)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Svenhelgrim on November 24, 2022, 12:58:53 PM
The way you [Tenbones] describe Savage World and your retooling of Clerics makes me think it would be a great system to use for Hârn.  I have tried running D&D and it’s just thematically WRONG.

I need elemental wizards and clerics who do stuff that their god represente instead of generic healbots with maces.

I will definitely look into Savage Worlds.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Dropbear on November 25, 2022, 07:36:10 PM
With all the talk about D&D - anyone play or considering playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder? I'm a D&D refugee and Savage Worlds has increasingly become a thing at my table.

I'm interested in what others (if any) have to say about their experiences with it thus far. Or if you're interested and have questions - I'd be happy to try and answer them, especially in regards to play-differences between D&D and Savage Worlds...

I’m a refugee from D&D as well and am working on SW and C&C to be my asylums. I am already invested in both as systems, meaning I have picked up a lot of both companies’ product. The sell to the group begins as soon as the Fantasy Companion physical product comes in, and I’m going for a Primeval Thule campaign.

We’ve used SWADE to play Deadlands already and the system got buy in from the group. I am also writing up a setting of my own and trying to decide which system I prefer to set it up under. I am a huge fan of Amazing Adventures as well.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Dropbear on November 25, 2022, 07:44:47 PM
With all the talk about D&D - anyone play or considering playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder? I'm a D&D refugee and Savage Worlds has increasingly become a thing at my table.

I'm interested in what others (if any) have to say about their experiences with it thus far. Or if you're interested and have questions - I'd be happy to try and answer them, especially in regards to play-differences between D&D and Savage Worlds...

I’m a refugee from D&D as well and am working on SW and C&C to be my asylums. I am already invested in both as systems, meaning I have picked up a lot of both companies’ product. The sell to the group begins as soon as the Fantasy Companion physical product comes in, and I’m going for a Primeval Thule campaign.

We’ve used SWADE to play Deadlands already and the system got buy in from the group. I am also writing up a setting of my own and trying to decide which system I prefer to set it up under. I am a huge fan of Amazing Adventures as well.

Argh. Three GSDs caused my post to necessarily be truncated. Their bellies required filling….

I’m leaning towards SW for a couple of reasons tbh. The powers are easy to use, for one. My homebrew setting deals more with gadgets than magic, but SW powers offer a pretty solid framework of guidelines for gadget capabilities.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Dropbear on November 25, 2022, 07:57:42 PM
With all the talk about D&D - anyone play or considering playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder? I'm a D&D refugee and Savage Worlds has increasingly become a thing at my table.

I'm interested in what others (if any) have to say about their experiences with it thus far. Or if you're interested and have questions - I'd be happy to try and answer them, especially in regards to play-differences between D&D and Savage Worlds...

I’m a refugee from D&D as well and am working on SW and C&C to be my asylums. I am already invested in both as systems, meaning I have picked up a lot of both companies’ product. The sell to the group begins as soon as the Fantasy Companion physical product comes in, and I’m going for a Primeval Thule campaign.

We’ve used SWADE to play Deadlands already and the system got buy in from the group. I am also writing up a setting of my own and trying to decide which system I prefer to set it up under. I am a huge fan of Amazing Adventures as well.

Argh. Three GSDs caused my post to necessarily be truncated. Their bellies required filling….

I’m leaning towards SW for a couple of reasons tbh. The powers are easy to use, for one. My homebrew setting deals more with gadgets than magic, but SW powers offer a pretty solid framework of guidelines for gadget capabilities.

Food in, food out. The GSDs made sure that I would realize the folly of trying to post here at the current time.

So with Primeval Thule I want to represent low magic in the setting. Removing the classes from the Savage Pathfinder stuff is an approach. Does Fantasy Companion actually contain a lot of the same stuff as SWPF? I have barely read the PDF as of yet, the care and training of these three GSDs has pretty much fallen solely on myself in the past month and a half whereas my wife and I were sharing duties before that.

They are exhausting!  But I love all three of them. Just don’t have much time right now, saw this thread, and thought I’d ask about this since Tenbones is here.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on November 26, 2022, 04:08:13 PM
The way you [Tenbones] describe Savage World and your retooling of Clerics makes me think it would be a great system to use for Hârn.  I have tried running D&D and it’s just thematically WRONG.

I need elemental wizards and clerics who do stuff that their god represente instead of generic healbots with maces.

I will definitely look into Savage Worlds.

I've been told this before. It's not a concept I invented or anything, I just grew up deeply fascinated with religion - and I come from a very weird cultural background (Father was Pentecostal - the crazy snake-handling, strychnine-drinking kind, Mother was Catholic, but my maternal Grandfather was Zen Buddhist and I was blasted in the face with all of it). It seemed very clear to me unless you were running a monotheistic campaign world, Clerics wouldn't be uniform in their expression of abilities either mechanically or narratively.

It was 2e Faiths and Pantheons that really clarified what I wanted with their Speciality Priests. It was trivially easy too - simply nuke the Cleric class, and the only kind of Cleric you could be is a Specialty Priest. That simple. The funny thing is the Pathfinder Cleric is the exact opposite of what I want - it's a glorified Healbot. Savage Pathfinder in doing a direct translation pulled all that Healbotty horror over to their game. Fortunately Savage Worlds is wonderfully easy to tweak by design. So I simply recreated the 1e/2e Specialty Priests of the Realms over to Savage Worlds and bingo-is-your-name-o.

Hehehe of course my players coming over from 5e that are new to my kind of games were... mildly discombobulated... at the idea that only clerics of Gods whose portfolio's govern healing could actually *heal*. But that's their problem.

Savage Worlds core and the Fantasy Companion are *excellent* apocrypha to Savage Worlds Pathfinder (which is self-contained) as they give you options to tweak and wholesale gut the things you don't like in the Savage World Pathfinder rules with very little effort.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on November 26, 2022, 04:16:37 PM
Does Fantasy Companion actually contain a lot of the same stuff as SWPF?

Surprisingly no. The Fantasy Companion was designed specifically to be a setting neutral sourcebook for Fantasy tropes for the Savage World's Core book. In fact, you don't even NEED Savage Pathfinder at all (but I'd recommend it).

The big differences are these: Savage Pathfinder uses Class Edges to represent the "classes" you'd find in D&D. They're optional of course, even in Savage Pathfinder (the option being you make normal Savage Worlds characters and everyone gets a free Background or Profession Edge instead). The Fantasy Companion has all the elements of the Savage Pathfinder 'Class Edges' broken down into discrete parts, plus a WHOLE lot more. They can be used interchangeably, but you'll have to decide if you want allow your Savage Pathfinder "classes" to dip easily into other Class-schticks. Personally? I don't give a flip. In my campaigns it's your character, as long as you can justify learning an ability/skill/stat upgrade in-game then I'll let you buy it. This puts the onus on the player to DO that.

So yes the Fantasy Companion is absolutely worth the purchase, ESPECIALLY if you want a more granular set of mechanics for you to customize your game. There is VERY mild overlap with SWPF. Definitely worth getting if you're really hands-on with your campaigns.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on November 28, 2022, 03:04:59 PM
I assume that you are referring to channel energy when you say that Pathfinder doubled down on clerics as healbot. Regardless, it's worth mentioning that's only for approximately half of clerics, as the other half do the opposite of healing with the same class features that typically get clerics labeled as healbots.

Magical healing is a necessity in D&D prior to about 4th edition, because mundane healing simply takes too long. It's cool to want clerics to do something other than healbot, but not having healing at all isn't actually an option. This is baked into the design of D&D, and a lot of other games. You can get by with an evil cleric who spontaneously casts inflict spells, because they can always load all cure spells the following day and recover everyone in downtime, but you at least need that option, minimum. It is what it is. I wouldn't personally call this a design flaw in the system itself, but I think that's a fair argument to make.

I'm inclined to be more favorable to your idea*, because SWADE is a lot more generous with mundane healing. Not having magical healing could actually work, because any wild card with a d4 healing has a pretty good shot at recovering a significant chunk of your total wound capacity. You just need a chance to take a breather and pull out the first aid kit. You don't actually need someone who has the healing power. It's handy, but "savvy woodsman with bandages and herbs" is plenty.

It's an interesting idea. I share a lot of your opinions on the matter. I really liked the 2E Forgotten Realms treatment of specialty priests because it mattered what god your cleric worshiped. The gods themselves all have different powers, and that should translate to their priests. The way domains are handled in SWADE does a far better job of making a cleric's god matter than the domains of 3E ever did, especially once you start to work in the concept of trappings.

The only thing in SWADE that I see making clerics a healbot is that they get the healing power plus some amount of other stuff. Giving them three powers rather than healing + 2, or picking some other deity appropriate power for their freebie and forcing them to select healing if they want it is a thing you could do, I suppose. However, if you take away the healing power entirely for certain gods... what makes a cleric different from a sorcerer who worships that god? You could certainly do that, but all clerics have access to cure light wounds in D&D. If you're taking away the healing power from certain clerics based on their god, is this still a SWADE conversion of D&D/PF? The question is a bit philosophical, I'll admit.

*I was initially skeptical, because I've been down this road before numerous times. Someone gets the notion that it would be awesome to have a game with no healing, because healing sucks so lets just not have healers, and 9/10 times the game is dogshit. This is because the person with the big brain idea to get rid of healers didn't actually address anything about the game that made healers necessarily, they just deleted the healing abilities and any classes based around healing. Granted, I see this happening more frequently in video games, but it pops up in tabletop games as well.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on November 29, 2022, 11:06:43 AM
Sure! For me the setting has to represent the conceits of elements in there. Having magical healing available to the degree that later editions of D&D assumes, would make most of the D&D settings from 1e/2e impossible. Or at the very least they would look nothing like how they're presented.

3e's Setting Hunt - which Eberron won (I made it into the semi-finals on that!) sought to alleviate that internally.

Savage Worlds natural healing rules are generous, so much so that Magical Healing is *really* powerful. The Channel Energy ability in Savage Worlds Pathfinder is really over the top and frankly, ridiculous notion that undermines the entire cosmological idea that as beings who are vessels for divine powers, the idea that divine powers even have "portfolios". Gods of Murder and Death are probably not "healers" by nature.

I'll steel-man that idea a bit. Something that doesn't get talked a lot about Savage Worlds magic is Trappings. And I actually liked the Deluxe edition rules for Trappings a bit better, than the SWADE ones. It's a superficial difference but players like specificity. So you could have Healing from the Murder God have the trapping of 'Excruciating Pain' where the act of healing feels likes getting stabbed by a hundred knives, or something - and make the player do a Fear Check or something to force the idea that while Magical Healing is real - it's not always a pleasant process.

Personally I'd rather just nuke it - and save those Trappings for edge cases with Gods with portfolios that might have "healing" as part of their schtick.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: King Tyranno on December 01, 2022, 07:45:41 AM
I've only just heard about Savage Pathfinder but I am quite interested in it as a conversion kit for DnD 3.5 stuff to Savage Worlds. I wouldn't mind playing or GMing something like Mystara, Ravenloft, or Dark Sun in Savage Worlds. My only experience of SW is in the Robotech version so I don't know how practical it'd be to convert. But the fact they converted so much of Pathfinder 1e seems to suggest it wouldn't be too hard to at least convert 3.5 specific splatbooks.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 08:09:55 AM
  I bought the box set and I use some things for conversions (the monster book for instance is extremely helpful to me for fast conversion and reference) rather than playing full on PF in SW.   I think some of the monsters are nerfed compared to what I expected though, but at the same time I guess the band for what a novice would face is much closer to the level 4 range versus the level 1 range.  I think some of the monsters I would expect a group of heroic level characters to face are not going to hold up well at all without armies of underlings.     I am looking forward to the fantasy companion, I own the previous edition version and I always thought it was fantastic.   I like the modifications to clerical abilities as well as some of the tweaks to make more powerful versions of the existing powers for spells.   

    I am currently running a long dungeon crawl for my players in SW, and they have just now cracked the 3rd level of the complex after 7 or so sessions.   They lack a mage and I think this is going to end up getting them killed, as in TPK'd.   They have been close a couple of times and they keep pushing in despite dealing with supernatural threats every time (it is a liches lair and he resides down on the 5th level).   I considered tossing an NPC into the crowd, but in my campaign mages are extremely rare and feared, so I decided it will have to be a PC or no go. 

   I like GURPS the best as a game system for any setting...but I have to admit SW can be tweaked easily to represent any genre and it is MUCH faster and easier to run regarding player knowledge level.   My next idea is to run a Rogue Trader style game (players are all part of the trader's "expeditionary team") set in WH40k, savage rifts showed me that SW can easily run that sort of setting.   

   Overall, regarding SW pathfinder (box set) I recommend it.  I will probably never run SW PF as written, but it is a great resource for some tweaks to make SW a "little more" D&D.   
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on December 01, 2022, 08:14:27 AM
I've only just heard about Savage Pathfinder but I am quite interested in it as a conversion kit for DnD 3.5 stuff to Savage Worlds. I wouldn't mind playing or GMing something like Mystara, Ravenloft, or Dark Sun in Savage Worlds. My only experience of SW is in the Robotech version so I don't know how practical it'd be to convert. But the fact they converted so much of Pathfinder 1e seems to suggest it wouldn't be too hard to at least convert 3.5 specific splatbooks.

   I personally think it is extremely easy.  I have a few conversions that are a bit on the lethal side (life draining undead), but the PF versions of these are a bit more survivable.  Before I had the pathfinder supplement I could convert most encounters on the fly reading from the original material.   The PF bestiary allows me to not even have to do that much.   The tone will be different with regard to the almost paranoid feeling of constricted resources, as casters are able to recover their powers at a much faster rate.   The threat of failure/death however is also different as acing dice can make a big bad into a running joke afterwards or a cautionary tale.    I am probably not as good at dealing out bennies as I should be, but my players burn those things like kindling. 
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on December 01, 2022, 10:28:05 AM
Yeah - Savage Worlds Pathfinder and Fantasy Companion can **EASILY** convert over any of the D&D settings from any edition. You just have to decide what Setting Edges and if you want to do Class Edges/No Class Edges. And if you don't want to do Class Edges, the Fantasy Companion has vastly most of that covered as discrete piecemeal abilities.

If you want to keep Class Edges - then you're going to have to familiarize yourself with the values of Edges and cooked in Hindrances and figure out Progression abilities for Seasoned/Veteran/Heroic ranks. It's not really that hard, to be honest. It's actually kind of fun. Consideration should be given, as well, to Prestige Edges instead of a Class Edge.

Savage Worlds can devour anything D&D-related without missing a beat. Personally, I'd never run Savage Pathfinder IN Golarion. But I'd certainly use those rules (and I do) to guide me on conversion projects for the Realms, and other settings, including my own personal stuff. The Fantasy Companion in particular is an immense help in this regard.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on December 01, 2022, 10:56:55 AM
Just a warning from personal experience: Savage Worlds Maths are allot more deliberate then one would think on first glance.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on December 01, 2022, 09:50:52 PM
Just a warning from personal experience: Savage Worlds Maths are allot more deliberate then one would think on first glance.

Yeah it gets very heavy when you start piling on Edges like Trademark Weapon. Still manageable of course, but definitely a bit to keep track of.

Of course, the upside is that it makes you feel like a badass when you have those ++++bonuses.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on December 02, 2022, 10:25:01 AM
Yeah if you take your time with it - like with all systems - once you assimilate the various strands of character development and put them to use: the Dual-wielder melee/ranged, the Berserker, Spellcasting, etc. all those bonuses sink in naturally.

I'm going to experiment in my next campaign with going back to XP progression but not making Ranking up tied directly to four Advances. Instead I'm going to make Ranking up purely arbitrary to me. This means PC's will spend more hang-time at each Rank and not feel "panicked" that they're not well rounded. It will also reduce the accumulation of mechanical bloat (somewhat) by slowing progression without slowing character growth. The difference is the characters will become more rounded.

My players are actually very enthused about it (I thought they'd balk). It'll be a while, before I can report back as I'm currently playing, not GMing.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on December 02, 2022, 05:16:45 PM
I'm going to experiment in my next campaign with going back to XP progression but not making Ranking up tied directly to four Advances. Instead I'm going to make Ranking up purely arbitrary to me. This means PC's will spend more hang-time at each Rank and not feel "panicked" that they're not well rounded. It will also reduce the accumulation of mechanical bloat (somewhat) by slowing progression without slowing character growth. The difference is the characters will become more rounded.

One of the things I've done while running Savage Worlds is to change Ranking-up to every five Advances rather than every four. It really does give players more breathing room as they no longer need to strongly debate over taking an Edge versus increasing an attribute, etc. It actually felt more natural, and I'd argue it should become an official change. For something like PF or Rifts, where there is a whole bunch of new Edges on top of what the core rules provide, I might even consider stretching it to six Advances per Rank.

I'm unsure what your mean when you say you're going to "arbitrarily" decide when characters Rank up, but I'd suggest providing a more rigid structure. Players should have expectations for when they will gain a new Rank so they can properly outline their character progression.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on December 03, 2022, 04:24:19 AM
Well I run long term campaigns, and it's arbitrary because ultimately I'm the one that decides when it's appropriate. Consider what it means to be a Novice, or Seasoned, or Veteran - and the inherent abilities that the system opens up to you. Those things, like all Edges, Stats, and Hindrances have deeper meaning than say D&D. This is because while everyone can stare at the numbers and engage the mechanics, first and foremost Savage Worlds is a game of tropes.

So it becomes more meaningful if the players organically rise in accordance to the flow the campaign vs. mechanically ticking of checkboxes in accordance to sessions played. A session might only cover a couple of days in a dungeon, or crossing a region. It doesn't imply that Spellcasters are doing quality work researching or a warrior is practicing advanced maneuvers in accordance with the next Ranks abilities, "just because". My games can literally account for nearly every day that passes, and I make my players justify their Advances.

And they feel good about it. I try to make time for "downtime" - wintering in somewhere when it's too cold to go out adventuring. Sometimes someone has found a trainer for some obscure ability, and so we use the Downtime rules for those that want to do side-stuff, to pass the time. They earn contacts, money, etc. Or maybe they have their own training to do?

In this regard I can easily justify the longer advance-routine to ranking up, because I don't do linear adventures, I do open-world sandboxes. Stuff happens, and the players drive the tempo.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on December 03, 2022, 11:41:38 PM
Well, it sounds like you got it figured out. :)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on December 12, 2022, 08:53:41 AM
  My hope is the SPF brings people into SW and they go more for a free form fantasy like will be shown in the fantasy companion (I look forward to that book big time, I thought the explorer's edition was one of the best rpg supplements I have ever bought.  I like some of the ideas from SPF, the "class edges" give me ideas for players to take edges from those class edges to further define a character (though I think the fighter was sort of goofy with its edges, but the barbarian and cleric seemed very iconic) and I also liked the options for turning up spell power/damage a bit.  I thought it was odd the PF version of many creatures (that are in the fantasy companion explorer book) seemed "nerfed" to a good degree compared to what I expected as a "level conversion" from PF.  I have not seen the new edition of the fantasy companion and its bestiary, so I guess maybe all the creatures are nerfed a bit, but I felt the creatures from the FC were pretty spot on as to the "threat level" I assumed from D&D/PF to SW. 

    I was always a much bigger GURPS fan but there is a curve and buy in from players with regard to optimizing their play, and the contested rolls can slow play a bit.   SW I like as much at this point because it is A LOT faster with regard to making characters, making content for players to adventure in, or for players grasping how to play at a decent level (I do want my players to understand the concept of using support and tests better though, as these things I will be using against them more and more as they deal with more organized and intelligent antagonists) and less asking what they are rolling for.   

   So far the big projects from SW, rifts and pathfinder, have been big wins in what I was expecting in a game/conversion.   There were disappointments (Juicer for rifts and Fighter for PF were sort of nerfed/vanilla) but for the most part I thought both were excellent runs on a property I wanted to see a good conversion of.   I think  the thing with SW is when reading it the die rolls seems "too swingy".   Playing it.... I do not really have that happen in the sense of threat assessment for players.   There have been some crazy rolls both for and against the players, rarely though is it the lone goblin braining the barbarian 1v1 though.  It tends to be the players or the big bads landing some very telling blows and bennie burn ensuing.   Over all however.... the flow is pretty smooth on most rolls.   This is regarding a more fantasy setting (we have only played a few sessions with Rifts and no other settings with a lot of fire power/guns, so can not comment on how the balance there plays out) so maybe the swing can show up elsewhere.   I won't likely play a game using neither the SPF rules as written or the established setting.  But I will gladly buy the products to use what so far are some excellent ideas to use in a SW game.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on December 12, 2022, 09:31:13 AM
One of the things that I think causes "old school" gamers to pause is the interpretation-factor of the dice. On one hand, we come from a background where everyone grounded in D&D pre-3e understood, generally what every single roll *meant*. Sure we'd have literal scads of debate on "what IS HP?" and "what IS AC?" etc. But the mechanics of the game expressed the mechanical expression of the Task Resolution within D&D to the point where we could all sit at the table and play.

The introduction of expressly "narrativist mechanics" has created an allergic reaction amongst the playerbase. But I think that experiment is largely played out.

That d20 task resolution mechanic has proliferated until the perceived "fixes" to the overall system with iterative editions until you have what we see today. There is this explicit understanding that a Hit is a Hit and it does Damage. And the Target loses HP, where HP is the abstract amalgamation of creature toughness, and the fights go on like a videogame where the Health Meter dwindles to zero. While I will fully admit, GM's (good ones at least) would describe what the combat looks like, what the wounds look like etc. the vast majority or players just roll to hit, and state damage etc. and whatever happens in your mind to describe the fight, if anything at all, is strictly your own until the GM tells you the creature drops and dies.

Whereas in Savage Worlds - new GM's will face this too, and it feels WEIRD because everyone has 3-HP. And most new SW GM's go... whoa! what? Savage Worlds encourages both players and GM's to describe what they are doing, and how they're doing it and let the dice tell you how well you do it - and the GM *should* add as much narrative flair to that roll to fully express what that roll meant based on its degree of success.

This also includes whether a "Hit" is actually a "Hit". Consider, an attack can succeed, but because of the Damage roll is not enough to do actual Damage, it gets the Shaken Result. Does that mean the bullet bounced off the PC's head? Does it mean it hit them and they're momentarily staggered? Does it mean that the bullet didn't actually hit the PC but instead hit the wall behind the PC spraying them with debris which causes them to be momentarily suppressed. Well... it can mean *any* of those things, but the end result if the PC is in the Shaken condition. The tempo of Savage Worlds IS fast (once you get the hang of it) and GM's *should* be describing and narratively interpreting the dice rolls but the *facts* of the result are never in question.

This is a large departure from where D&D is currently played by the majority of players, though I want to stipulate before people start protesting: Yes, GOOD GM's do this in D&D too, and yes, BAD SW GM's don't do this in Savage Worlds. But the facts are interpreting the results of task resolution is easier and more fun in Savage Worlds because it's meant to be done implicitly as a game about tropes.

This system lets you have all the seriousness and humor you want in-between the give-and-take of combat. It lets PC's win big and lose hard on good/bad rolls. But you always have a fighting chance to escape. This "swinginess" is a feature not a flaw. I don't have to pretend to dick around "CR" I can toss in whatever feels right and the PC's can feel like big damn heroes, or risk going down like chumps. But they *always* have a chance.

Several members of my group play in other groups on the side... and they have all been converted from 5e and Pathfinder to Savage Pathfinder, because my players have introduced them to it. ALL of them were staunch D&D/PF groups. And they all resisted until they played it. Now they're converts. And of course... they all play in other group too and are pitching it to those groups.

Based on the chatter I see and contribute to on the Pinnacle Discord, there are a ton of PF players that have moved over. As long as Pinnacle keeps converting over the Adventure Paths from Pathfinder, it will only get bigger. Plus the Fantasy Companion is doing its job giving GM's a means to move over from expressly "class-based" play to more free-form SW play.

It's a good train to be on and I'm glad my instincts were on point. Savage Worlds ain't perfect, but the flaws that exist in it are easily dealt with. It's a great system for beginning GM's and advanced GM's alike, and it's a godsend to new players. You can explain the system in like ten minutes. I could probably do it in five.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: oggsmash on December 12, 2022, 10:52:43 AM
  I had the books for a good while, I don't remember what the edition before the explorer's edition was called but I had that one.  I remember when they changed the way melee weapons do damage (a strength roll and a weapon roll versus the strength plus a flat modifier) introduced in the supplement Solomon Kane (which is a really good book as well) and adopted into explorer edition.  I can say this, every new edition actually improves the game from the prior versions, I dont know that I can always say that about lots of other RPGs I have on the shelf.   The chase rules have always been funky to me, and I honestly end up using pilot/driving tests between the two parties to resolve those with a need to get to a number of "wins" net to get away or run down.   I guess some people like those rules, I can say I have never used them on any of the three editions of the game I own. 

    I agree about how easy it is to explain and get the game rolling to new people.   I like that there is more to it as well with regard to forcing tests and essentially accomplishing many, many things with using tests and a little creativity that are often seen as feats or the like in other games.  It benefits from both an easy entry as well as a deeper level of play if the players and GM want that.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on December 15, 2022, 03:42:48 AM
I have recent experience with new players and Savage Worlds, and unfortunately it's not quite as new player friendly as I would like to believe.

The concept of exploding dice is tricky for some people to get their heads wrapped around.

The system is inconsistent. Sometimes you roll several dice and take the highest. Sometimes you roll several dice and add them all together. Sometimes you do a mix where you roll these two dice and take the highest but then you add that to these other two dice.

In all of the WotC editions of D&D, you add up all your dice and then add some other modifier. The number and size of the dice might change, but the basic mechanic stays the same. You roll dice and add. Every time.

A dozen or so sessions later, our new guy still gets tripped up by trait checks vs damage rolls, and when he takes the highest die versus adding all his dice together. I ran the group through Castle Ravenloft in 5E, and he had those rules nailed down after two or three rolls.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on December 15, 2022, 08:03:30 AM
I have recent experience with new players and Savage Worlds, and unfortunately it's not quite as new player friendly as I would like to believe.

The concept of exploding dice is tricky for some people to get their heads wrapped around.

If you roll the highest number on a die, you roll again and add it to the total? What's hard about that? This isn't some original die-mechanic. Warhammer, WEG d6, L5R, Ars Magica etc. all use the exploding die mechanic. Are your players strictly D&D/PF players? In which case, I get it. It's new.

The system is inconsistent. Sometimes you roll several dice and take the highest. Sometimes you roll several dice and add them all together. Sometimes you do a mix where you roll these two dice and take the highest but then you add that to these other two dice.

95% of the time you only ever roll two dice. One is you Trait die, the other is the Wild Die. Pick the highest of the roll. The Wild Die is *only* used on Trait Rolls (Stat or Skill rolls). The only times you regularly roll multiple dice are on damage rolls where the weapon might be 2dX+Str or whatever. THE only exceptions to this is if you're using a weapon/spell with a high rate of fire. You simply add that RoF in dice to your action, but you only use 1 Wild Die per action. So if you're Gnomish Crossbow is RoF 3, you roll 3 Shooting Skill dice and your Wild Die. And you can assign success/miss as you see fit.

In all of the WotC editions of D&D, you add up all your dice and then add some other modifier. The number and size of the dice might change, but the basic mechanic stays the same. You roll dice and add. Every time.

A dozen or so sessions later, our new guy still gets tripped up by trait checks vs damage rolls, and when he takes the highest die versus adding all his dice together. I ran the group through Castle Ravenloft in 5E, and he had those rules nailed down after two or three rolls.

Except the rules bloat of d20 means there's tons of modifiers and the only way to trim down the maths is on the back end with monsters having gigantic HP pools. Coming over from D&D where you've achieved a certain level of system-mastery will always trip you up in a new system. Especially if it's a setting you're using as a mechanical translation. Savage Worlds has a bazillion ways to resolve things - it's not about system-mastery as much as it is about your players doing what feels right to you as the GM. Encounters don't always have to be about combat (though obviously SW excels at that) - but you can do Dramatic Tasks, and let your players describe how they want to use their skills (including combat skills) to resolve issues and give everyone a chance to pitch in. Like anything else it takes time to get used to, both as a GM and as a player.

How is everything going otherwise?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on December 15, 2022, 11:14:00 AM
To be clear, I quite like Savage Worlds. I wouldn't have gone in for the leatherbound, autographed copy of the SWADE otherwise.

The guys who have experience with D&D, Deadlands Classic, WoD, L5R, Shadowrun, and other systems have no problem. The brand spanking new guy still gets mixed up on when he's supposed to do what.

I would have thought exploding dice would be easy to wrap your head around, too. But it trips up new players.

Trait rolls, you roll two dice and take the highest. That seems easy enough. However damage rolls involve rolling a set of dice (usually two) and adding. If your damage roll involves strength, you make a trait roll with your wild die, take the highest, and then add that to some other dice total. This is confusing to new players. It amounts to, "You always roll the die on your sheet plus your wild die and take the highest, except when you don't." This begs the question: "When do I don't?"

Trait rolls aren't all the same, either. Sometimes your trait roll is d4 + wild die. Sometimes your trait roll is d8 + wild die. That doesn't seem hard, but for the new player they're constantly rolling different dice. By comparison, a new player at a D&D player already has their d20 in hand when their turn comes up. They may not know shit else, but they know they're rolling that d20.

Hence my opening statement. It's not as friendly to new players as I'd like to believe. It may be a simpler game overall, but there is no simpler core mechanic than, "This is my d20. There are many like it, but this one is mine."
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on December 16, 2022, 07:02:45 AM
So overall, how is it holding up for you and your group?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on December 16, 2022, 08:13:45 AM
If your damage roll involves strength, you make a trait roll with your wild die, take the highest, and then add that to some other dice total. This is confusing to new players.
Actually, you don’t get a Wild Die on damage rolls, even if they are strength based. The book is explicit on this point. (SWADE p94 and Savage Pathfinder p125)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on December 17, 2022, 03:12:07 AM
I'll be damned. They changed that in Explorer Edition and I never noticed.

So overall, how is it holding up for you and your group?
I missed Deluxe completely, so I hadn't played Savage Worlds since Explorer. It feels like they've really improved the game in a big way with SWADE.

I was running Rise of the Runelords in Pathfinder. We tried converting characters for giggles after I got my PDFs, but the druid wasn't real wild about it. It's awkward going from a prepared spellcaster to SWADE. You feel like you lose 90% of your stuff. Meanwhile the warpriest was jazzed.

We're playing Deadlands, and the same guy who didn't like converting a D&D druid is having a ball playing a huckster. They did a fantastic job of recreating the feel of Deadlands Classic when it comes to Dealing with the Devil. He does it every session. I've been playing a mad scientist. The power modifiers are a lot of fun to play with and add a lot of depth to play.

The adventure deck is fun. We started using that to mimic awarding fate chips at the end of a Deadlands session, since bennies don't carry over. They're not for every group, but they do spice up a game. On the whole, I like Pinnacle's approach to having more physical objects for the players to interact with than just dice. Lots of other games have a mechanic like bennies, but there's something satisfying about poker chips flying across the table. The adventure deck adds to that. It brings back that "ace up your sleeve" feel the old Deadlands Classic initiative system had.

Tests and support are interesting mechanics. We tried those out when our gunslinger got into a duel. I like how it gives noncombatant characters something to do. I think you could actually have a character with no fighting, no shooting, and no combat spells. As in, the character would be fun to play and wouldn't drag the rest of the group down.

Next year, I think we're doing Savage Ravenloft for Halloween. Our druid/huckster has been converting I6 to Savage Worlds.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on December 17, 2022, 10:19:50 AM
Oh yeah man, SWADE has updated a *ton* of little oddities. I got it at the tail-end of Deluxe, there were lots of little screwy things in there, but not enough for me to really mind.

SWADE shows how much Pinnacle has put a ton of thought into their system, and they're really good about feedback from the players. It helps they're good with third-party products too, where a lot of innovation has come out of.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: soundchaser on January 01, 2023, 06:34:37 PM
SW for pathfinder is SWADE, eh?

Ok time to track down books. It was not on my radar of late.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Heavy Josh on January 01, 2023, 08:07:39 PM
Oh yeah man, SWADE has updated a *ton* of little oddities. I got it at the tail-end of Deluxe, there were lots of little screwy things in there, but not enough for me to really mind.

SWADE shows how much Pinnacle has put a ton of thought into their system, and they're really good about feedback from the players. It helps they're good with third-party products too, where a lot of innovation has come out of.

It’s really a well-thought out system. Though I still say that it reads like a train wreck. Once you play it though…amazing.

I just started running SWADE for one of my groups (17th Century French Swashbuckling). So far, so good.

Barring this thread, where is a good place for rules questions and such?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 02, 2023, 12:03:24 AM
The Discord channel is excellent.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Chris24601 on January 03, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
My main issue with SWADE is it probably needs a few extra notches on its wound cap setting rules in terms of genre emulation.

I’ve been playing quite a bit and recently had the opportunity to guest run some sessions, specifically SWTOR era Star Wars.

Now, in general the increased swinginess of SWADE works really well for Star Wars… heroes suffer reverses and fail at things they should succeed at (or succeed at things they probably had no real chance at) all the time. Except the damnable damage math kept sucking all the drama out of things because 4d6 (3d6 with a raise) just needs one or two aces to routinely turn into “shaken + 4 wounds.”

I swear a result of s+4w came up at least once a fight even when we scaled the damage down to 2d8. The acing rules just make damage very volatile and it’s landed on what was supposed to be a boss fight (oops it’s down in one shot… so dramatic) or dropped a player out of the fight (soak to make it s+3w… base TN 7 because of the wound penalties basically mean you’re done unless you’ve got some instant healing both in the setting and available).

I may as well not have even bothered with Resilient Extras to be some elite mooks; even with 12 Toughness the number of times a 20+ came up was enough to make that extra wound meaningless and you can only soak so many times and enemies soaking just rubs a lot of players raw as it feels like the GM is arbitrarily undoing their successes.

The result was I fought the system like hell for a long time to try and find damage expressions that would both match the armor levels expected of the setting and yet not explode all over the place and remove all dramatic tension.

Only after I did all that work did I realize where the mechanical problem actually lay.

The problem is that SWADE still treats damage as different than other mechanical resolutions. For most actions a raise is the best result possible. You don’t get extra benefit when the dice luck their way up to a 23 result instead of you scoring an 8 result. This prevents idiocy like 3e D&D’s “I rolled a 42 Diplomacy check so the monsters we were about to fight are instead fanatically loyal to me.”

But this isn’t the default for damage. The default for damage is unlimited raises, each causing a wound. The wound cap setting rule limits it to four wounds, bit that’s still “fight over” and even a normal soak will only drop it to “may as well be over because a -3 penalty is so crippling as to be essentially useless.”

The problem I figured out is that wound cap is set way too high for a lot of genres. I liken it to the difference between a gritty modern western (four wound cap; one shot and someone is bleeding out in the dirt) and the classic silver age western where the most a hero might take on the first hit is a shoulder graze and even the main villain needs a couple of hits to actually put down.

Basically, I think the system would benefit greatly from some lower wound cap options and a discussion of what each causes to happen.

Like, let’s look at it if the limit is one raise just like most other actions.

For Extras there’s no change. One wound knocks them out regardless.

For a resilient Extra though, that extra wound now always matters. You always need a second successful damage roll (if shaken it doesn’t even have to be a raise) to actually put them completely down.

And for a Wild Card, a first hit can wound them. A second shot before they unshake can wound them 1-2 more times (so -2 to -3 penalty) and a third shot for 1-2 more wounds wound be needed to actually drop them to incapacitated. It also means Wild Card enemies aren’t just going to be obviated because someone’s damage dice happened to explode into a 34 (which I did see happen and other results in the high 20’s and low 30’s also more than once).

That feels a lot more like the Star Wars genre (and more high fantasy settings in general) to me way more than the regular wound cap and having to fight with weapon mechanics until 1d8+5 became the standard blaster rifle damage expression because the odds of single die acing were low enough that a Sith Lord Wild Card with toughness 14 (6) vs. energy was extremely unlikely to be insta-ganked by a PC allied extra and a lucky damage roll (which I also saw happen).

Having it happen once is funny. Having it happen repeatedly just had me feeling like I was watching Ryan Johnson’s Sequel Trilogy home campaign.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 03, 2023, 12:47:17 PM
Back in the earlier days of Savage Worlds, someone on the forums, perhaps even the line developer, put together a list of various options for handling damage to simulate certain genres of styles of play. One of them--I think they called it "Cinematic Damage"--was that no attack ever does more than one wound, regardless of the difficulty to Soak it.

SWADE has snuck this back into the Fantasy Companion through the back door, with the Unstoppable monster trait, which does the same thing--and which is, IIRC, available to PCs as a Legendary Edge.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 03, 2023, 01:15:46 PM
Like, let’s look at it if the limit is one raise just like most other actions.

 for a Wild Card, a first hit can wound them. A second shot before they unshake can wound them 1-2 more times (so -2 to -3 penalty)

Sounds like you are playing the rules slightly wrong there. A Raise only does one wound, even if the target is shaken. You need two raises to do two wounds, RAW in SWADE. P94 makes this clear in the example table.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 03, 2023, 02:05:35 PM
There is no reason, in fact they're pretty emphatic about it at PEG - that if something rubs you wrong - *change it*.

I actually am not a big fan of Wound caps *at all*. I play with the Grim and Gritty Setting rule (Wounds produce injuries boys. Better wear a cup). And right now in Rifts, we're playing with Megadamage weapons, so it's really nasty.

THAT SAID... I'm only doing that to have a specific 'tone' of play. Bloody and ruthless. If I want more cinematic swashbuckling - absolutely Wound Caps, Born a Hero etc. The beauty of the system is it's designed at its most atomic level to produce the feel and tone of your setting as you see fit without breaking.

@Chris24601 - you got me thinking about the Wounds track. There's already rules adjacent to granting more wounds - you can get them with Size modifiers. But! something that might be interesting is granting an extra Wound per Rank. Might be something to try.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on January 03, 2023, 02:20:44 PM
Overall I'm in agreement. The wound track is just a little too short, wound modifiers are just a little too burdensome too fast, and soak rolls are just a little too unreliable.

This could probably be resolved by spreading raises out to increments of 5 rather than 4, but I think that would create problems elsewhere in the system.

You could give characters an extra wound with no penalty or a +1 penalty.

You could use what's already been suggested, which is to limit attacks to causing 1 round regardless of the damage roll. Maybe you allow up to 2 wounds if the attack hit with a raise.

Maybe bennies automatically negate wounds, no roll required. Like how fate chips worked in Deadlands Classic.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 03, 2023, 04:31:33 PM
My ample gut reaction is that 1 Hit = 1 Wound has some potential downstream incentives that are not good.

1) First incentive - definitely going to go for the multi-hand/Ambidexterity melee route. There is little incentive to swing hard and big, if we're talking 1 Hit = 1 Wound.
2) Fuck melee altogether. Go rapid-fire bows, crossbows, guns etc. At minimum in cases 1 and 2 you're going to devour those Bennies for soaking.
3) What about explosives and heavy weapons etc? Just assign Wound values?

Personally I haven't had any problems with the swinginess. Yes, I've certainly had the One-Shot Kill from the Depths of Hell. But they have been mostly rare, and entertaining when they occur. Mostly. (I had a player in my Beasts and Barbarians game - who was built to take on scary shit *die* of a heartattack while being jumpscared by a rat. FREAKY).

You have a LOT of options by playing around with the Bennies in terms of what they do. They've already encoded a lot of optional uses: Extra d6's, Extra Damage/Hit, Soaks, etc. Nothing says you can't make it a hard currency to do explicit things other than a chance to Soak.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Wrath of God on January 16, 2023, 01:18:02 PM
Quote
(I had a player in my Beasts and Barbarians game - who was built to take on scary shit *die* of a heartattack while being jumpscared by a rat. FREAKY).

There are death-by-fear rules in BnB? Nice.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: King Tyranno on January 16, 2023, 01:55:35 PM
I find with all this shit about the OGL that converting some DnD sheep to Savage Pathfinder has been easier than ever. I got one of my regular groups to convert. They always go on about how all other games are "more complicated than DnD." . But having a lot of DnD terms converted to SW was really useful in finally convincing this group to give SW a go. We're doing a kinda sorta Ravenloft campaign.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 16, 2023, 03:23:08 PM
I find with all this shit about the OGL that converting some DnD sheep to Savage Pathfinder has been easier than ever. I got one of my regular groups to convert. They always go on about how all other games are "more complicated than DnD." . But having a lot of DnD terms converted to SW was really useful in finally convincing this group to give SW a go. We're doing a kinda sorta Ravenloft campaign.

Give it a go but be very careful about homebrewing. SW Maths are very tight.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Fheredin on January 16, 2023, 03:38:40 PM
I find with all this shit about the OGL that converting some DnD sheep to Savage Pathfinder has been easier than ever. I got one of my regular groups to convert. They always go on about how all other games are "more complicated than DnD." . But having a lot of DnD terms converted to SW was really useful in finally convincing this group to give SW a go. We're doing a kinda sorta Ravenloft campaign.

Them thar players be sufferin frum sunk cost fallacy. 95% of RPGs out there are markedly less complex than D&D.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: VisionStorm on January 16, 2023, 03:54:48 PM
I've been doing the 1/day Character Creation Challenge for January this year and ended up trying out Savage World last week, and loved it so much I've been making every character SW since then to really get a feel for the ins and outs of it. I was amazed at how fast I could make a character on the first go and how easily customizable the system seems to be.

I'll definitely be trying to sell my group on this system, since there's been complaints about D&D combat taking so long in the past, and enemies seem to be quick to dispatch in this game. Plus the system seems to simple, yet customizable and versatile in general, it should be quick to grasp even for the most casual, non-rules oriented players, while adaptable enough for me to do whatever tha hell I want with it.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Valatar on January 16, 2023, 04:16:34 PM
I prefer a setup where characters can't just chew on bullets for half an hour before going down.  SW essentially has a regenerating shield in the Shaken concept, the ability to instantly remove Shaken with a benny, and the ability to soak with bennies, which all adds up to a pretty fair degree of resilience.  If a bad guy happens to roll insanely well and a player burned all their chips, sometimes that just happens.  Especially in Star Wars, if someone gets lightsabered real good they're right out of the fight and probably missing a limb or two, that's just how it goes.  Ditto for catching a blaster shot in the head or whatever.  You don't just walk it off for a lot of those weapons.  Capping it so you only get lightly wounded at worst if Darth Vader impales you with a lightsaber seems to be heavily diluting any risk.

You do you, of course.  If you want it to be impossible to go from unscathed to incapacitated in one hit, that's easily done by ignoring any raises beyond the third.  It's an exceedingly simple house rule to apply.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: VisionStorm on January 16, 2023, 04:27:03 PM
I don't wanna roll every round for every character or enemy that gets Shaken, or to track which injuries are "Shaken" or actual Wounds, particularly since I've been looking at this game as a faster combat alternative to D&D. So I've been thinking of getting rid of the Shaken condition and give everyone one extra Wound instead, then capping damage raises to 3 Wounds or so, since I don't want Wild Cards to get one shotted either.

I also might end up using my own initiative system, since I don't like rolling initiative, and treating all Edges reliant on drawing Jokers or specific cards as 1/encounter abilities or something like that.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 16, 2023, 11:00:15 PM
Quote
(I had a player in my Beasts and Barbarians game - who was built to take on scary shit *die* of a heartattack while being jumpscared by a rat. FREAKY).

There are death-by-fear rules in BnB? Nice.

They're part of the core SWADE rules. Fear checks. And they're no joke. You can scale them up/down based on the Horror factor, but if you fail your check it can get wild n' fun very quickly.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 16, 2023, 11:13:17 PM
I don't wanna roll every round for every character or enemy that gets Shaken, or to track which injuries are "Shaken" or actual Wounds, particularly since I've been looking at this game as a faster combat alternative to D&D.

Couple of things (don't know if you've started running games yet). The Shaken Condition is kind of a big deal. It's a partial abstraction to mitigate what in d20 would be your HP pool. Since you only get 3 Wounds, the Shaken condition is supposed to act as the onramp to the Death Spiral which d20 doesn't really use. Players can *absolutely* mitigate it further by burning a Bennie, or trying to shake it off every round, but it absolutely adds to the tempo of combat. There are corollary abilities that work off of the Shakened Condition that can require some minor rework, but it can be done.

If you want faster combat - you'll get it. Even with Shakened. Don't forget Monsters (and PC's) can get more Wounds based on Size. But mostly they'll get more Armor and Toughness that just mitigates Wounds altogether.

So I've been thinking of getting rid of the Shaken condition and give everyone one extra Wound instead, then capping damage raises to 3 Wounds or so, since I don't want Wild Cards to get one shotted either.

Could be done. But I do the opposite - I don't use Wound caps at all. There is an *option* to allow PC's that get WTFdropped to instead of dying outright, to roll on the Death and Dismemberment Table... which will... uhh... leave them with memorable results... but not necessarily kill them. Mainly because I find most PC's get their Armor/Toughness up to a range where Shaken becomes very scary (because it's all Wounds from there forward if they can't recover) but Wounds happen only against real bad mofos (Wildcards).

And also remember you don't roll for Shakened results for non-Wildcards - they're just knocked the fuck out. This is why PC's can take on lots of minions and heroic fray them (but you'll get Gang Up Rules to abuse them and keep them honest).

I also might end up using my own initiative system, since I don't like rolling initiative, and treating all Edges reliant on drawing Jokers or specific cards as 1/encounter abilities or something like that.

I've been toying with this this idea myself... but my players have come to love the initiative system... and so for now, it's safe.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on January 16, 2023, 11:54:45 PM
I swear a result of s+4w came up at least once a fight even when we scaled the damage down to 2d8. The acing rules just make damage very volatile and it’s landed on what was supposed to be a boss fight (oops it’s down in one shot… so dramatic) or dropped a player out of the fight (soak to make it s+3w… base TN 7 because of the wound penalties basically mean you’re done unless you’ve got some instant healing both in the setting and available).

Not sure of this was already mentioned, but the Soak roll in this example would not suffer from Wound penalties. If you are attempting to Soak Wounds, you don't apply penalties you WOULD receive from the attack, since the point of a Soak is to see if the damage never happens in the first place. You would only apply Would penalties from previous (unSoaked) Wounds.

So in the example, someone gets hit for three Wounds and wants to attempt a Soak. Assuming they have no other Wounds or Fatigue, the TN to Soak one Wound is 4, with every 4 points more on the roll removing another Wound. Hitting TN12 Soaks all three Wounds and also removes the Shaken condition as a bonus.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on January 17, 2023, 12:01:02 AM
Quote
(I had a player in my Beasts and Barbarians game - who was built to take on scary shit *die* of a heartattack while being jumpscared by a rat. FREAKY).

There are death-by-fear rules in BnB? Nice.

There are in Savage Worlds core, too. If someone fails a Fear check they need to roll d20 on the Fear Table. Getting 21+ results in a heart attack and instant death. Of course, getting "21" on a d20 means the object of the Fear check must have a fear modifier. It's gotta be one scary fukken rat.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 17, 2023, 07:37:47 AM
And also remember you don't roll for Shakened results for non-Wildcards - they're just knocked the fuck out. This is why PC's can take on lots of minions and heroic fray them (but you'll get Gang Up Rules to abuse them and keep them honest).
I’m not sure what you’re saying there, Tenbones? RAW there is no difference between Wild Cards and Extras in terms of being Shaken. Irrespective of character type they get a free Spirit roll to come out of Shaken at the start of their turn, and a benny can be spent at any time so the character is immediately no longer Shaken.

There are other rules outside of Shaken that make a difference (Wild Cards have their own supply of bennies, they get a Wild Die on their Spirit Check, they have Wounds) but those don’t directly make being Shaken different.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 17, 2023, 08:18:45 AM
Quote
(I had a player in my Beasts and Barbarians game - who was built to take on scary shit *die* of a heartattack while being jumpscared by a rat. FREAKY).

There are death-by-fear rules in BnB? Nice.

There are in Savage Worlds core, too. If someone fails a Fear check they need to roll d20 on the Fear Table. Getting 21+ results in a heart attack and instant death. Of course, getting "21" on a d20 means the object of the Fear check must have a fear modifier. It's gotta be one scary fukken rat.

  Could have been a Critical Failure on the Spirit/Guts roll, which applies +2 to the table, but you still need a 19 or 20. That's the kind of dice-rolling event that lives in legend. :)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: VisionStorm on January 17, 2023, 09:00:04 AM
I don't wanna roll every round for every character or enemy that gets Shaken, or to track which injuries are "Shaken" or actual Wounds, particularly since I've been looking at this game as a faster combat alternative to D&D.

Couple of things (don't know if you've started running games yet). The Shaken Condition is kind of a big deal. It's a partial abstraction to mitigate what in d20 would be your HP pool. Since you only get 3 Wounds, the Shaken condition is supposed to act as the onramp to the Death Spiral which d20 doesn't really use. Players can *absolutely* mitigate it further by burning a Bennie, or trying to shake it off every round, but it absolutely adds to the tempo of combat. There are corollary abilities that work off of the Shakened Condition that can require some minor rework, but it can be done.

If you want faster combat - you'll get it. Even with Shakened. Don't forget Monsters (and PC's) can get more Wounds based on Size. But mostly they'll get more Armor and Toughness that just mitigates Wounds altogether.

So I've been thinking of getting rid of the Shaken condition and give everyone one extra Wound instead, then capping damage raises to 3 Wounds or so, since I don't want Wild Cards to get one shotted either.

Could be done. But I do the opposite - I don't use Wound caps at all. There is an *option* to allow PC's that get WTFdropped to instead of dying outright, to roll on the Death and Dismemberment Table... which will... uhh... leave them with memorable results... but not necessarily kill them. Mainly because I find most PC's get their Armor/Toughness up to a range where Shaken becomes very scary (because it's all Wounds from there forward if they can't recover) but Wounds happen only against real bad mofos (Wildcards).

And also remember you don't roll for Shakened results for non-Wildcards - they're just knocked the fuck out. This is why PC's can take on lots of minions and heroic fray them (but you'll get Gang Up Rules to abuse them and keep them honest).

I also might end up using my own initiative system, since I don't like rolling initiative, and treating all Edges reliant on drawing Jokers or specific cards as 1/encounter abilities or something like that.

I've been toying with this this idea myself... but my players have come to love the initiative system... and so for now, it's safe.

This is something I am definitely gonna have to consider. I figured Shaken simply added an extra step, and was too punishing because it basically locked down character's from taking action, which increases their chances of taking a wound (and becoming Incapacitated if they're an Extra) before they're able to do anything in the encounter. So I thought maybe making Shaken just another Wound would make things more straightforward and avoid extra rolls, unless the character actually gets hit by something that Stuns them or inflicts some other condition, like crowd control powers and such.

But I guess it acts like an extra buffer of health that replenishes itself every time someone shakes off the Shaken condition. Though, I also figured that Healing abilities would be able to mitigate that--specially if I add an extra Wound level--since even conventional healing can restore two Wounds on a raise. But I haven't played it yet, so I'd have to try it out.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: VisionStorm on January 17, 2023, 09:07:54 AM
And also remember you don't roll for Shakened results for non-Wildcards - they're just knocked the fuck out. This is why PC's can take on lots of minions and heroic fray them (but you'll get Gang Up Rules to abuse them and keep them honest).
I’m not sure what you’re saying there, Tenbones? RAW there is no difference between Wild Cards and Extras in terms of being Shaken. Irrespective of character type they get a free Spirit roll to come out of Shaken at the start of their turn, and a benny can be spent at any time so the character is immediately no longer Shaken.

There are other rules outside of Shaken that make a difference (Wild Cards have their own supply of bennies, they get a Wild Die on their Spirit Check, they have Wounds) but those don’t directly make being Shaken different.

Yeah, that's what I thought I read in the books. So I figured "if mooks get taken out in two hits anyway, then why not just make Shaken an extra Wound and avoid making extra rolls or keeping track of two different damage conditions?" But like I mentioned above, I guess Shaken works like a replenishing buffer, so I'll have to think it through before I try it.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 17, 2023, 09:18:35 AM
It’s become a cliche, but Savage Worlds is definitely one of those games that plays slightly differently than it reads. If you ignore Shaken but give everyone an extra wound there would be some knock-on effects that might be counter to your aims.

For Extras, that wound is a round when they are up and active (though with a wound penalty) and they also get free attacks on people leaving combat, and count for gang-up. Also, you lose the possibility of a less combat focussed character making targets Shaken with a test and leaving them open to being finished off by the more lethal combatants.

For Wild Cards, unless you make the first wound ‘free’ you are also increasing the penalty on their Vigour check to avoid permanent injury when they go down, and that is already hard at -3.

I really would try out a few combats before adjusting. The game is super flexible but the design is deceptively tight, too.

Not as tight as GURPS with it’s endless unexpected consequences but there are definitely interactions between the different moving parts.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Chris24601 on January 17, 2023, 09:52:34 AM
I swear a result of s+4w came up at least once a fight even when we scaled the damage down to 2d8. The acing rules just make damage very volatile and it’s landed on what was supposed to be a boss fight (oops it’s down in one shot… so dramatic) or dropped a player out of the fight (soak to make it s+3w… base TN 7 because of the wound penalties basically mean you’re done unless you’ve got some instant healing both in the setting and available).

Not sure of this was already mentioned, but the Soak roll in this example would not suffer from Wound penalties. If you are attempting to Soak Wounds, you don't apply penalties you WOULD receive from the attack, since the point of a Soak is to see if the damage never happens in the first place. You would only apply Would penalties from previous (unSoaked) Wounds.

So in the example, someone gets hit for three Wounds and wants to attempt a Soak. Assuming they have no other Wounds or Fatigue, the TN to Soak one Wound is 4, with every 4 points more on the roll removing another Wound. Hitting TN12 Soaks all three Wounds and also removes the Shaken condition as a bonus.
Sorry, wasn’t quite clear. Not the soak itself, the rolls to unshake and be able to do anything afterwards or try to heal yourself all have the -3 wound penalty attached to them… so at least one bennie to unshake (because TN 7 is rough even with a d10) and, if you have the ability to heal then TN 7 for that too.

Basically, a -3 wound penalty is so bad you’re basically useless. This is a problem with SW in general… their penalties are in general way too steep. If you’re a wildcard with a d6 then you’ve got about 75% shot at TN4 normally. A -2 penalty drops your odds to about 25%. Spending a Bennie only offers another 25% shot at success. Even a d12 with a -2 is barely 67% odds of success.

And SW loves it’s two-step penalties… you almost never see a -1 penalty… it’s always -2 or -4 or -6. That leads to a lot of failures and tends to burn away the bennis of those who aren’t good with the odds (if you need an Ace to succeed, spending a Bennie almost never helps).

In general the system math is just much less intuitive and the small number ranges (that turn into huge ranges on an Ace) can make it very swingy. It results in a very specific style of play that’s great if you’re into it, but definitely isn’t for everyone.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on January 17, 2023, 02:40:21 PM
Quote
(I had a player in my Beasts and Barbarians game - who was built to take on scary shit *die* of a heartattack while being jumpscared by a rat. FREAKY).

There are death-by-fear rules in BnB? Nice.

There are in Savage Worlds core, too. If someone fails a Fear check they need to roll d20 on the Fear Table. Getting 21+ results in a heart attack and instant death. Of course, getting "21" on a d20 means the object of the Fear check must have a fear modifier. It's gotta be one scary fukken rat.

  Could have been a Critical Failure on the Spirit/Guts roll, which applies +2 to the table, but you still need a 19 or 20. That's the kind of dice-rolling event that lives in legend. :)

True, and True. :)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 17, 2023, 02:56:21 PM
Sorry, wasn’t quite clear. Not the soak itself, the rolls to unshake and be able to do anything afterwards or try to heal yourself all have the -3 wound penalty attached to them… so at least one bennie to unshake (because TN 7 is rough even with a d10) and, if you have the ability to heal then TN 7 for that too.

Basically, a -3 wound penalty is so bad you’re basically useless. This is a problem with SW in general… their penalties are in general way too steep. If you’re a wildcard with a d6 then you’ve got about 75% shot at TN4 normally. A -2 penalty drops your odds to about 25%. Spending a Bennie only offers another 25% shot at success. Even a d12 with a -2 is barely 67% odds of success.

And SW loves it’s two-step penalties… you almost never see a -1 penalty… it’s always -2 or -4 or -6. That leads to a lot of failures and tends to burn away the bennis of those who aren’t good with the odds (if you need an Ace to succeed, spending a Bennie almost never helps).

In general the system math is just much less intuitive and the small number ranges (that turn into huge ranges on an Ace) can make it very swingy. It results in a very specific style of play that’s great if you’re into it, but definitely isn’t for everyone.

Yeah, if you're a PC/Wildcard and are at 3-Wounds, you're in *deep* shit. Combat at that point should be trying to GTFO while you can. Healing (has been changed) - you don't get penalties for Healing a wounded person. But you DO get penalties if you're the one wounded doing the healing. I've seen a lot of people complain about how punishing the Death Spiral is (I personally like it). The *solution* is simple. Lower the penalties, or remove them!

If you look across all the settings for Savage Worlds - you'll see that each setting *usually* has unified damage values for normal weaponry, but if the setting has futuristic or setting-specific weaponry, that damage can scale much higher. The idea, presumably is that the armor within the setting will also be of equal value in context to the setting. Wound penalties remain constant, but they're not mandatory. And in high-damage settings/games - or maybe you're using Grim and Gritty rules - adjusting the Wound penalties might make sense for your games. It will *not* effect the over all game, but it will draw combat out a little bit.

You definitely have options in this regard. I'm still toying with the idea of giving everyone an extra Wound per rank for high-cinematic games.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on January 17, 2023, 03:25:31 PM
I swear a result of s+4w came up at least once a fight even when we scaled the damage down to 2d8. The acing rules just make damage very volatile and it’s landed on what was supposed to be a boss fight (oops it’s down in one shot… so dramatic) or dropped a player out of the fight (soak to make it s+3w… base TN 7 because of the wound penalties basically mean you’re done unless you’ve got some instant healing both in the setting and available).

Not sure of this was already mentioned, but the Soak roll in this example would not suffer from Wound penalties. If you are attempting to Soak Wounds, you don't apply penalties you WOULD receive from the attack, since the point of a Soak is to see if the damage never happens in the first place. You would only apply Would penalties from previous (unSoaked) Wounds.

So in the example, someone gets hit for three Wounds and wants to attempt a Soak. Assuming they have no other Wounds or Fatigue, the TN to Soak one Wound is 4, with every 4 points more on the roll removing another Wound. Hitting TN12 Soaks all three Wounds and also removes the Shaken condition as a bonus.
Sorry, wasn’t quite clear. Not the soak itself, the rolls to unshake and be able to do anything afterwards or try to heal yourself all have the -3 wound penalty attached to them… so at least one bennie to unshake (because TN 7 is rough even with a d10) and, if you have the ability to heal then TN 7 for that too.

Ahh, okay! Yeah, you're right.

Quote
Basically, a -3 wound penalty is so bad you’re basically useless. This is a problem with SW in general… their penalties are in general way too steep. If you’re a wildcard with a d6 then you’ve got about 75% shot at TN4 normally. A -2 penalty drops your odds to about 25%. Spending a Bennie only offers another 25% shot at success. Even a d12 with a -2 is barely 67% odds of success.

That's kind of a feature, not a flaw. Taking three Wounds means you're practically dead. You shouldn't be looking to continue the fight, you should be dragging your bloody ass into Cover and calling a medic for help. This is one of the best features of Savage Worlds... it promotes cooperative gameplay. The lonewolf character is a liability.

Also, the Nerves of Steel Edges are there purposely to help mitigate Wound penalties. If you want your character to be a badass who can fight through pain, you need to invest in that type of build. Overall, though, the general idea is to not get hit, rather than being able to take more damage. Improve your Parry by increasing your Fighting skill, or take Edges like Block or Dodge. More importantly, use Cover. Simply dropping prone essentially gives you Medium Cover against ranged attacks more than 6 yards (3") away.

I'm not going to be a dick and say "you're playing wrong," but it sounds like you might be expecting the game to function in a way it wasn't designed to. Combat in SW is much less like DnD and a lot more like war-gaming. Tactics matter, and getting hurt sucks.

Quote
And SW loves it’s two-step penalties… you almost never see a -1 penalty… it’s always -2 or -4 or -6. That leads to a lot of failures and tends to burn away the bennis of those who aren’t good with the odds (if you need an Ace to succeed, spending a Bennie almost never helps).

I agree with you here. There are homebrew rules to address the way Scaling works, basically adjusting Scale Modifiers by +/-1 for every two Sizes, rather than +/-2 for every 4 Sizes. You can probably half the penalties for ranged combat without screwing too much up. The problem is then going in and tinkering with all the Edges that mitigate penalties so they don't become too OP.

Quote
In general the system math is just much less intuitive and the small number ranges (that turn into huge ranges on an Ace) can make it very swingy. It results in a very specific style of play that’s great if you’re into it, but definitely isn’t for everyone.

Yeah, true. I love Savage Worlds. Been playing it for over 10 years. But I know people who just couldn't get into it. As mentioned, the combat is one of the areas where people who are used to other systems have trouble enjoying it.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on January 17, 2023, 03:49:20 PM
It’s become a cliche, but Savage Worlds is definitely one of those games that plays slightly differently than it reads. If you ignore Shaken but give everyone an extra wound there would be some knock-on effects that might be counter to your aims.

For Extras, that wound is a round when they are up and active (though with a wound penalty) and they also get free attacks on people leaving combat, and count for gang-up. Also, you lose the possibility of a less combat focussed character making targets Shaken with a test and leaving them open to being finished off by the more lethal combatants.

For Wild Cards, unless you make the first wound ‘free’ you are also increasing the penalty on their Vigour check to avoid permanent injury when they go down, and that is already hard at -3.

I really would try out a few combats before adjusting. The game is super flexible but the design is deceptively tight, too.

Not as tight as GURPS with it’s endless unexpected consequences but there are definitely interactions between the different moving parts.

^^^^ Very much this!

Shaken can sometimes be a pain to navigate when you have a ton of Extras (I once ran a combat with over 35 enemies... try that in DnD you fags!), but removing Shaken would have a domino effect that would reduce combat to just a slogfest. Definitely give a few a tries before you change things. It does play differently from how it reads (I learned that recently when I tried changing the cyberware Humanity Loss in CP: RED... it reads like it's overly punishing, but actually has little impact on the game).
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: VisionStorm on January 17, 2023, 05:05:02 PM
It’s become a cliche, but Savage Worlds is definitely one of those games that plays slightly differently than it reads. If you ignore Shaken but give everyone an extra wound there would be some knock-on effects that might be counter to your aims.

For Extras, that wound is a round when they are up and active (though with a wound penalty) and they also get free attacks on people leaving combat, and count for gang-up. Also, you lose the possibility of a less combat focussed character making targets Shaken with a test and leaving them open to being finished off by the more lethal combatants.

For Wild Cards, unless you make the first wound ‘free’ you are also increasing the penalty on their Vigour check to avoid permanent injury when they go down, and that is already hard at -3.

I really would try out a few combats before adjusting. The game is super flexible but the design is deceptively tight, too.

Not as tight as GURPS with it’s endless unexpected consequences but there are definitely interactions between the different moving parts.

Good points overall, though, some of this involves stuff I've also considered ignoring as well. I've thought about maybe ignoring wound penalties or reducing them by half (rounded down) for pretty much the same reasons Chris brought up (plus also cuz it would be one less thing to track). And I also thought of ignoring the Gang Up or retreat from combat rules because I've always considered similar rules in other games (like D&D) too punishing and even unrealistic as well.

I was ganged up by bullies a couple of times when I was a kid and I always managed to break away from them unless they completely blocked my way (and I was a flat footed overweight kid, so it's not like I was quick or anything). This isn't to say that something like flanking isn't real, cuz I definitely think that being hit from behind has a greater chance of success than a frontal assault. But absolutely everyone within melee reach getting a free shot if you try to run away beggars belief and doesn't entirely match my own experience. Maybe the most immediate opponent at your escape route might get one in, but once you reach a certain amount of people pressed closely they just get in the way of each other too much for every single one of them to get a free hit.

I still haven't made up my mind to do any of these changes (or to what extent I would do them if I did), but I would probably ignore free attacks against fleeing opponents regardless. And also reduce the bonuses for Ganging Up a bit (+1 to lateral and +2 to rear opponents), cuz cumulative bonuses for each opponent (like multiple opponents attacking you at the same time isn't enough of an advantage) is too much. And a +4 bonus (max) in a game where the base TN is 4 and the average die roll is 1d6 is just devastating, specially when that would apply to 4+ opponents.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 17, 2023, 05:19:12 PM
And a +4 bonus (max) in a game where the base TN is 4 and the average die roll is 1d6 is just devastating, specially when that would apply to 4+ opponents.
A high-skill melee combatant can easily have a parry over 10, so those gang-up bonuses become one of the few ways less skilled opponents can threaten them. Combat is the one area of the game where target numbers can get really quite high.

In a game I ran set in Eberron, one PC had a parry of 10 with relatively moderate stats - Fighting d8, large shield, and the Block Edge. And the Block Edge reduces the gang-up bonus by 1, too.

They have reduced the effect of shields in Savage Pathfinder / the Fantasy Companion by saying you can only apply the parry bonus against half your opponents, but even so defences can get high.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Wisithir on January 17, 2023, 05:26:53 PM
Shaken is useful in that it provides a state between wounded and no effect, allowing marginally effective attacks to rack up into damage. Tracking it is easy enough by tilting the miniature or the character sheet. I actually preferred the prior editions handling of it, needing a raise to act on the same turn as shaking it off, instead of pass a vigor check and get a regular action. It strongly discouraged getting pounded on and made for an impactful choice to benny shaken off or roll for it and possibly  benny a reroll.

The combat is different than D&D, but that is a selling point. I sold the system to my GM by running on of the one sheet adventure combats and getting through it in a reasonable time compared to D&D. Just how fast combat can be still sneaks up to the GM sometimes "I didn't have more prepared because I forgot how fast combat was..."
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: VisionStorm on January 18, 2023, 07:03:05 AM
And a +4 bonus (max) in a game where the base TN is 4 and the average die roll is 1d6 is just devastating, specially when that would apply to 4+ opponents.
A high-skill melee combatant can easily have a parry over 10, so those gang-up bonuses become one of the few ways less skilled opponents can threaten them. Combat is the one area of the game where target numbers can get really quite high.

In a game I ran set in Eberron, one PC had a parry of 10 with relatively moderate stats - Fighting d8, large shield, and the Block Edge. And the Block Edge reduces the gang-up bonus by 1, too.

They have reduced the effect of shields in Savage Pathfinder / the Fantasy Companion by saying you can only apply the parry bonus against half your opponents, but even so defences can get high.

Ah, I didn't take shields or the Block edge into consideration. But you need to have a large shield to get a Parry value as high as you mentioned, which might be too cumbersome in some situations and doesn't apply to characters using two-handed weapons. And the Block bonus is only +1 initially, plus you have to be Seasoned for some reason to even get it, or Veteran to improve it to +2 (though, that one's kinda good for a game with such tight maths).

One of the things that kinda annoys me about this game sometimes is the rank requirements for Edges. A lot of edges are gated behind higher ranks and the Novice versions are kinda dubious sometimes. Like for example, I wanted to create an inspirational character modelled after a D&D bard and you need to be Seasoned to get the edge for Leadership benefits to even apply to PCs/Wild Cards. Novice characters are stuck affecting only Extras, which is useless, unless you have a bunch of followers with you, which 1) requires your game to focus on carting around followers (which rarely ever happens in my games), and 2) how would a novice even be able to attract followers? You could hire mercs, I suppose, but that's a big expense just to be able to maybe get a situational benefit that only applies to your mercs sometimes.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 18, 2023, 07:13:00 AM
The ‘Born A Hero’  setting rules may help here. It removes rank requirements (except for Legendary) when buying Edges at character creation. That is presented in the SWADE core rule book but not part of the Savage Pathfinder implementation out-of-the-box.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 19, 2023, 11:00:41 AM
Something to consider when looking at Edges and Gear that give +1, +2, +4... is that in Savage Worlds a +1 is a very *substantial* bonus. It's the equivalent of a +4 in D&D.

So any Edge, Gear bonus, Environmental bonus that nets you any kind of advantage has big numerical effects and should be treated accordingly. This is why you see most magic items in Savage Worlds tend to give bonuses to AP, or Damage, or other effects than to hit (but those exist too).

Block + Shield is a *solid* combination, as is Dodge... in fact for most melee characters they're staples in my games. It's pretty easy to have starting characters be veritable tanks that takes me whole mobs of monsters to swarm them to even have a chance of taking them down. Goblins are actually especially nasty if they have a leader with Gang Up Tactics, but even then, a PC can likely mow them down. Especially if they go the Two-Weapon fighting route, and judiciously use Shield-bashing, they can easily be smashing the Goblins to death, while parrying most incoming attacks with relative ease... unless those dice explode. heheh

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Dropbear on January 19, 2023, 07:31:40 PM
@Tenbones Your dissemination of all this info about SWPF (and in general, your discussions about SW) has brought me to a precipice. I bought all the Savage Rifts books with the credit I got from NKG for trade when I sent in my entire D&D 5E collection that's been gathering dust on my shelf for the past three years.

So now to pitch to my group Savage Rifts (and also Primeval Thule using SWADE + Fantasy Companion) as our new main games...
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: rkhigdon on January 20, 2023, 09:44:34 AM
I've always been interested in Savage Worlds, but every time I've had the opportunity to actually play there's been some sort of twat at the table who has ruined the experience for me.  It's worth noting that the local SW scene was dominated by a (somewhat) prominent game writer/designer who is an actual douche.  He's since left the area so things might be better, but I still see a lot of the old names on local game postings so I'm leery. 

However this thread has convinced me that I might be better served to take a different approach to getting the game on the table.  I'm thinking I just need to bite the bullet and run a game with my existing gaming group who I can trust to keep things fun at the table.  While this might seem like kind of a minor revelation, it's notable to me in that

a) I generally don't lay out a lot towards a new game unless I've had some substantial experience with it first.  In this case I've played some Savage Showdowns miniatures games, but have little actual experience with SW as a full on RPG.
b)  This well outside my groups wheelhouse.  While a couple have some experience with multiple systems, most know nothing but BXD&D (and a couple don't know even that very well) so this could be quite the stretch for them.

I'm wondering if there's some good resources online, say free adventures and the like, that I could use to defray the costs od this lettle experiment a bit?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: deganawida on January 20, 2023, 10:22:07 AM
I would just like to say thank you for all the commentary in this thread.  It convinced me last week to purchase SWADE and the Fantasy Companion, after discussion with my wife and daughters (the OGL debacle has really opened them up to non-D&D systems).  We will be playing this alongside Castles & Crusades for our family games.

I really like the Fantasy Companion.  As I told my best friend, who mostly DMs for us, I can use these rules to mimic D&D, Palladium Fantasy, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Exalted, and match literary works easily, all without having a too-complex rules system.  Speed of play and imaginative play are important to me.

Again, thank you for all the analysis and tips put in here.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: King Tyranno on January 20, 2023, 04:13:12 PM
I've always been interested in Savage Worlds, but every time I've had the opportunity to actually play there's been some sort of twat at the table who has ruined the experience for me.  It's worth noting that the local SW scene was dominated by a (somewhat) prominent game writer/designer who is an actual douche.  He's since left the area so things might be better, but I still see a lot of the old names on local game postings so I'm leery. 

However this thread has convinced me that I might be better served to take a different approach to getting the game on the table.  I'm thinking I just need to bite the bullet and run a game with my existing gaming group who I can trust to keep things fun at the table.  While this might seem like kind of a minor revelation, it's notable to me in that

a) I generally don't lay out a lot towards a new game unless I've had some substantial experience with it first.  In this case I've played some Savage Showdowns miniatures games, but have little actual experience with SW as a full on RPG.
b)  This well outside my groups wheelhouse.  While a couple have some experience with multiple systems, most know nothing but BXD&D (and a couple don't know even that very well) so this could be quite the stretch for them.

I'm wondering if there's some good resources online, say free adventures and the like, that I could use to defray the costs od this lettle experiment a bit?

I can sympathise a lot with not being able to find a group because everyone in your area is a cunt. On SW. Parhfinder for Savage Worlds is perfect for people who just play DnD. It takes a lot of the terms you're familiar with in DnD and converts them to Savage World Rules. A big trouble I used to have with getting people to play SW, is there's no classes. Yoy build your character through edges. And people just couldn't wrap their heads around that. Savage Pathfinder offers Class Edges. They are edges that give you the abilities of a class from DnD. And it's all the familiar ones. That alone convinced a long time group of mine to finally try Savage Worlds.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 20, 2023, 09:15:39 PM
@Tenbones Your dissemination of all this info about SWPF (and in general, your discussions about SW) has brought me to a precipice. I bought all the Savage Rifts books with the credit I got from NKG for trade when I sent in my entire D&D 5E collection that's been gathering dust on my shelf for the past three years.

So now to pitch to my group Savage Rifts (and also Primeval Thule using SWADE + Fantasy Companion) as our new main games...

Woo!! that's a big jump in octane from 5e to Savage Rifts!

Well if you ever have any questions feel free to ask us. Also let us know how your games are going!
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on January 20, 2023, 09:35:59 PM
When I was still new to Savage Worlds, I too thought that Shaken would lead to a lot of "shield regen" moments. In actuality, that had only ever been a rare case. Most of the time, KOs are quick to happen. Usually when one is Shaken, unless their Parry is extremely high, it is unlikely they'll get away without any wounds after the following round.

I also have been thinking a lot about Toughness and Soaking. I like to interpret Soaking as using Bennies to give your Toughness an added +4 bonus, since in a way, you need to roll a 4 on Vigor to soak the Wound. This also means the attack had hit you as intended, past your armour, and also means you're bleeding. It's just that t'was but a scratch. :)

Sorry I don't know where I'm going with this post LOL. I just felt like making a SW-related post early in the day  ;D
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 20, 2023, 10:08:40 PM
I really never see Shaken being an issue. Fights go pretty fast for my group. And when they don't... it's *always* high-tension because we all know that the longer the fight goes, the more chances of something wild happening.

Wounds? I can definitely see the case for having more if you want to draw combat out. But I'm not convinced I can't do that with other tools in the bucket.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on January 21, 2023, 03:06:58 AM
Tenbones, I'd like to get your opinion on something: what tools/tricks/tactics do you use to counter high Parry + high Toughness characters (talking about 13 Parry 15 Toughness that sorta character)? I tend to use Tests of Will and Wild Attacks, but I'd like to hear more from fellow experienced GMs (I don't trust reddit or the peginc forums, I am willing to bet I have more experience than 99% of their community).
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 21, 2023, 03:43:35 AM
Our experience with gonzo characters via the new Super Powers Companion is that almost no fight goes beyond 3-4 rounds of action, but those rounds are still fun and meaningful to play.

The party are a brick with Toughness 15, and rolling d12+d8+2d6 damage. A blaster with a 3d6 ROF 2 ranged attack and a force field which makes her -5 to be shot (but her melee skills are limited), and a crowd control type who can teleport and stun but who is a pacifist so no lethal attacks.

In the last fight the team took on a fast melee Wild Card, along with two Extras with guns and four Extras with paired melee weapons.

The bad guys got the jump, and in round 1 the Extras did some damage to the blaster while the brick took a couple of them out.  The crowd-control guy teleported to a roof and started stunning the shooters. When the Wild Card enemy turned up he focussed on the brick and put him on the deck in one round, but the rest of the party mopped up the Extras. Next round the enemy Wild Card got machine-gunned by the blaster, wounding him severely so he fled the field*. The party drove off the last couple of Extras and (most importantly) healed the brick who was incapacitated.

The party got to be cool, the enemies were a threat as a group and there were definitely high tension moments. It was a cool fight that only took about 3-4 rounds and less than 30 mins to play. The pace of Savage Worlds is much more rapid than other games we play.

* One of the things I particularly like about supers as a genre is that it makes sense in context for enemies not to fight to the death. They are there for a reason - some kind of nefarious plan, and from their perspective the PCs are an obstacle to achieving that. If they can no longer achieve their objective they will pull back and try again another time / way. Once the campaign is a bit more advanced and the PCs have thwarted multiple gambits the villains will try to actively eliminate them, but we haven’t reached that stage yet.

Mudbanks - you posted while I was writing this (and I’m not Tenbones, but…): those things are key. Numbers also count in Savage Worlds, either in terms of gang-up or Rate of Fire. Any attack can Ace so weight of attacks means more chances to Ace and that is tense from a player perspective in my experience. I also use enemies with attacks versus other defences using powers. My players are terrified of Entangle and the effect is so good it has actually been down-powered slightly in the new Companions so Pinnacle clearly agree with this assessment. Monsters with area-effect stun attacks are another tool in the kitbag.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on January 21, 2023, 06:09:29 PM
Thanks for sharing, dbm! I may consider Stun and Entangle when I plan out my next encounters. I've also been thinking of doubling my NPC numbers. Usually the fighter of the party clears out a group of 4 extras very quickly (like within 2 rounds), so I may double that to 8.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on January 22, 2023, 04:57:52 AM
Tenbones, I'd like to get your opinion on something: what tools/tricks/tactics do you use to counter high Parry + high Toughness characters (talking about 13 Parry 15 Toughness that sorta character)? I tend to use Tests of Will and Wild Attacks, but I'd like to hear more from fellow experienced GMs (I don't trust reddit or the peginc forums, I am willing to bet I have more experience than 99% of their community).

Well, first off, Parry 13, Toughness 15 is very uncommon for a standard game. You really only see numbers like that in a Supers game or Rifts, in which case the "to hit" and damage numbers generally scale with the defense. You also see that on Gargantuan creatures, but the +6 Scale modifer means you're practically "automatically" hitting, then just hoping to roll big damage (assuming you can penetrate Heavy Armor).

But generally, combat in Savage Worlds heavily favors coordination and tactics. Is part of that high Parry coming from a shield? Well get someone to Disarm or otherwise destroy the shield (see Breaking Things). Tests (previously known as "Tests of Will") can be used to give allies a bonus on their attack via the Vulnerable condition. This bonus stacks with Wild Attack. Allies can also provide Support, which stacks up to +4. And then there are Comprehensive Modifiers, which can stack up to an additional +4.

Essentially, if the party is facing such a gonzo threat, their best bet is to try to provide the heaviest hitter with the best opportunity to land a blow, then have him try to deal high damage. Spending a Benny to reroll damage (especially with the No Mercy edge) is probably better than attempting to repeat tbe tactic next round. Note that as the foe takes on Wounds, their own actions will become penalized, meaning the most dangerous part of the fight is going to be the beginning, with the end sort of slogging out.

Also worth mentioning that while Savage Worlds doesn't have explicit "morale" rules, intelligent foes typically have self-presevation. Once they hit 3 Wounds or so, they are pretty likely to give up rather than fight to the death. Beasts may just simply try to run away. Exceptions may exist depending on the creature's Edges/Hindrances. Deathwish or Heroic might keep a character fighting, for example.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 22, 2023, 06:13:26 AM
Tenbones, I'd like to get your opinion on something: what tools/tricks/tactics do you use to counter high Parry + high Toughness characters (talking about 13 Parry 15 Toughness that sorta character)? I tend to use Tests of Will and Wild Attacks, but I'd like to hear more from fellow experienced GMs (I don't trust reddit or the peginc forums, I am willing to bet I have more experience than 99% of their community).

dbm and mudbanks nails it. Those are some *high* numbers. Even in my game where everyone was high Veteran/low-Heroic in a fairly high-fantasy setting, that's some hefty stats.

First and foremost - I always do things in context. It's not like PC's walk around advertising their stats, so I never make enemies do things with some foreknowledge (unless they have it) of what a PC's stats are. If they PC's have those stats, and start whipping the fuck out of my monsters, they earned it. Smart monsters run away, or try different tactics...

My first option: Ranged attacks. You can have all the parry you want... but a hail of arrows is still TN 4 unless you have some other means of protection. Getting past that Toughness? Well that's a different matter.

Second option - Could use poison with touch attacks, (works well in conjunction with ranged).

Third option - Gangup attacks w/ Grappling works good too. Ignore that Parry and start rolling Athletics against a mass of attackers. Grappling in general is a *very* good way to slap some penalties on that badass PC. Give them Vulnerable, and Distracted, keep them unable to move. Hell toss in friends with Reach on top of that... I'll bring that bitch down with Goblins.

Tests - I don't ever put this as a "thing" to consider doing, because I *always* use Tests with my NPC's. No PC typically has all their stats at high levels. SO targetting the stat they're weakest at for a Test is always a solid choice. And don't forget to use your GM Bennies! If my NPC's *know* they're going up against a beast with ridiculous fighting skill (13 Parry!) and they can take a hit like a freight-train (15 Toughness) then you bet your ass I'm going to do it dirty.

Do not forget your NPC's own Edges and Special Abilities - Blinding a PC is *BRUTAL* (Darkness is the same thing). Weapons with AP (be it magic or special materials). Support, Support, Support! Maybe one of your goblins has Pack Tactics! Then watch the fireworks!

Of course there's always Magic. Lower Trait, Entangle - BRUTAL. Oh that Fighting has that Parry real high? Lemme drop it a couple of dice. SPEND THE BENNY, MAKE THEM FEEL IT.

It depends on the circumstances of course. While those are high ratings, I've taken down PC's with slightly beefier stats with good old fashioned goblins that play smart and fight dirty. But I'm always respectful of any PC in my campaigns that reach those kinds of power-levels, because I make sure they earn it, and I like letting them throw their weight around. This way when they run up against NPC's that *do* fight smart, because they might know something about their abilities, or are on that same level - the PC's give them that respect right back. It's good to let the players show some fear in their eyes... hehe


Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on January 22, 2023, 08:59:51 AM
Appreciate the responses everyone! :)
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on January 23, 2023, 01:45:27 PM
I ran the Earthshaker adventure (one of the three adventures written for the Fantasy Companion) over the weekend using archetype characters from Savage Pathfinder. Two of the players were brand new to Savage Worlds.

I ran the chase scene blind. Hadn't read the rules up until hours before the session, because chases had never interested me very much. It went pretty smooth. Both the chase and the fight inside the mobile fortress took a while, but individual combat rounds flew by quickly. I like how SWADE handles chase mechanics. Using a second action deck to represent relative distance is a neat idea. If I'd had more time to prepare, I would have modified the encounter to use the quick chase deck.

Nobody got too fancy with using tests, support, ganging up, wild attack, or any of the other mechanics. Everyone pretty much played straight. Fights would have been over more quickly if people were using the rules to their advantage. However, with most of the group being brand new to Savage Worlds, that was to be expected.

Players liked the flexibility in character options, and the various hindrances went over well. They liked the flavor that went along with their hindrances.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 23, 2023, 02:19:49 PM
The very first campaign I ran was sold upfront as a "testbed" for Savage Worlds. I told my players, this was more about me testing *everything* before I started trying to get tricky and do my own thing.

Combat checked out fine. As did all the usual stuff for survival etc. (I'm big on environmental play). But the sub-systems were another matter. I had literally no idea how they would play out, and I was very skeptical of the Battle System, Chase System and Dramatic Tasks, specifically.

I was won over on all counts. *Especially* the battle system. When I ran the Chase system, it took a minute to set up and get my head around, but it immediately raised the stakes of the encounter and actually ended up killing a PC with great drama (and my players still talk about it to this day - as that event turned into big sub-plot for the campaign going forward. Basically the goblin commando that caught and killed the PC, beheaded him and later used that PC's skull as a cod-piece... yeah the PC's were hunting for that guy for a long time). The Dramatic Task system is very dynamic and you can use it to have small-to-large events and let your PC's dynamically use their best skills/abilities to do cool things.

But that Battle System... for sandbox GMing? It's a thing of magical beauty. Most times big heavy sieges are background affairs where the PC's do their thing, and what happens in the background is depending on the success/failure of the PC's. The Battle System lets you do both. You can run large battles - skirmishes - even massive fights. I had a battle of over 70k troops on *each* side... and due to the rolls and the breakdowns of the numbers... 80% death-toll, ridiculous carnage. No PC will feel like they didn't put themselves through the wringer. It's over the top, but simple to run. And it's VERY satisfying. Every PC can contribute, no one is left out. You can scale it to literally any size.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on January 25, 2023, 12:01:56 AM
Yup the Mass Battle mechanics are great. I had a lot of fun running MBs. Despite being heavily narrative driven, they are also tied to strategies and math, so there's still some mild number crunching going on. However, because everything is resolved so quickly, things never stop moving. You constantly feel like characters are moving, there's ferocious fighting going on, spells are being slung, etc. It's really something else and you have to play it to believe it.

I would LOVE to run an Hour of the Dragon-esque scenario using Savage Worlds one day.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 25, 2023, 02:47:52 AM
Pinnacle are currently running a Kickstarter for SW called Legend of Ghost Mountain (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/545820095/legend-of-ghost-mountain). This is a wuxia implementation, new powers, new game world, and a campaign to go with it. And also mass battles are apparently a big thing in the campaign.

It looks really cool.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 25, 2023, 11:41:50 AM
Yeah I'm all in on the Print edition.

I *suspect* this is going to be the testbed for their Martial Arts Companion which is supposed to be coming out in the future.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 25, 2023, 06:25:26 PM
After a very, very long search I have finally decided that SWADE is my sweet spot game, so I’m pretty much all in for everything Pinnacle put out at the moment…

I managed to resist Holler but I’m picking up all of the Deadlands stuff, companions, Pathfinder and Rifts materials as they come out.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on January 25, 2023, 09:42:36 PM
I skipped Rifts, Holler, and Pinebox Middle School, although I did put in for the Horror Companion. Pinnacle definitely has products that I'm not interested in. That's not a bad thing in and of itself. Savage Worlds is a very flexible system.

I'm looking forward to Hell on Earth, although that's in an awkward spot. Deadlands had major changes to the setting that impact Hell on Earth, but they just did Hell on Earth right before SWADE.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Daddy Warpig on January 26, 2023, 03:58:58 AM
I skipped Rifts, Holler, and Pinebox Middle School, although I did put in for the Horror Companion. Pinnacle definitely has products that I'm not interested in. That's not a bad thing in and of itself. Savage Worlds is a very flexible system.

I'm looking forward to Hell on Earth, although that's in an awkward spot. Deadlands had major changes to the setting that impact Hell on Earth, but they just did Hell on Earth right before SWADE.

Usually the changes between Savage World editions are so minor that you can run prior settings with newer editions.

Are there any problems running the Coke Classic Hell on Earth with SWADE?
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Corolinth on January 26, 2023, 03:35:28 PM
In simple terms, for anyone unfamiliar with the setting, the main premise of Deadlands Classic is that the American Civil War gets interrupted. The Union and the Confederacy are involved in a Cold War for the next hundred or so years.

Through pulpy time travel fuckery, SWADE Deadlands wraps up the American Civil War within about ten years of its historic end date. This makes the western United States a very different place in the 2080s.

From a play perspective, I’m rather neutral. I played a lot more Deadlands. However, I’m interested in seeing how changes to the Weird West affect the Wasted West.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: JackFS4 on January 27, 2023, 11:23:33 AM
I have not picked up Pathfinder SW.  They hooked me with the big box Lankhmar set as I'm a sucker for Fritz Leiber's low fantasy setting. The other big SW purchase for me was the Flash Gordon collection on humblebundle or bag of holding (I forget which). I had fond childhood memories of the 1979 Adventure of Flash Gordon cartoon.  I was happy with how PEG reproduced the setting, now I just need to get my group to get excited about Flash Gordon.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 27, 2023, 02:21:11 PM
I'll be honest - I'm *generally* as interested in the rules for new settings as I am the settings themselves. Mainly because the core rules of the game are so solid it basically means everything they add into new Genre Companion books, and settings are now fodder for any kind of meta-setting or homebrew/conversion you want to do yourself.

Core + Fantasy Companion does just about any kind of fantasy game you can imagine - or convert anything you need pretty easily. Want black-powder weapons? Just take them from the SWADE Core. Want something more kinetic? Grab the weapons and Edges from Deadlands. Want Classes? Grab the Class Edges from Savage Pathfinder (make your own!), want to scale your magic setting to crazy insane levels of power? Start adding in the Mega-Magic rules and gear from Savage Rifts...

And this is really the tip of the proverbial iceberg as you can configure all these pieces and parts relatively seamlessly in almost any combination - once you start jacking with Setting Rules, then you can pretty much do any kind of gaming you want with solid fidelity.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2023, 03:53:28 PM
My wish is they would release the Sci-Fi companion next instead of martial arts or whatever. But I assume that would take a ton of effort.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: dbm on January 27, 2023, 08:04:03 PM
I am pretty sure that Sci-Fi will be the next Companion released, it’s just not the next product. It is well into production if I remember correctly from mentions on their YouTube / Twitch channel.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 27, 2023, 10:05:06 PM
I am pretty sure that Sci-Fi will be the next Companion released, it’s just not the next product. It is well into production if I remember correctly from mentions on their YouTube / Twitch channel.

Oh. Good news for me then! I just don't follow twitch stuff. Hours at a time of rambling to get crumbs of data.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 28, 2023, 12:46:48 AM
Yep Sci-Fi is next!
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: King Tyranno on January 29, 2023, 03:16:48 PM
So I got my regular group to play Savage Pathfinder. I decided to do Keep on the Borderlands. It's so easy to convert stuff. Owing both to the simplicity of SWP and KotB's sandbox nature. We've done one session so far and my group are really enjoying themselves. The maths isn't so bad if you have a calculator on hand. Recently I tried to do char gen for Battletech: A Time of War. Now THAT WAS SOME FUCKING MATHS! SW maths is nothing compared to the blatant algebra you have to do just to reach puberty in AToW. One of the most badly explained and needlessly complicated rulesets I've seen. It really makes me appreciate Savage Worlds even more now. 
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Effete on January 29, 2023, 04:42:08 PM
Recently I tried to do char gen for Battletech: A Time of War. Now THAT WAS SOME FUCKING MATHS!
... One of the most badly explained and needlessly complicated rulesets I've seen.

Lancer: "Hold my beer."
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 30, 2023, 11:06:49 AM
So I got my regular group to play Savage Pathfinder. I decided to do Keep on the Borderlands. It's so easy to convert stuff. Owing both to the simplicity of SWP and KotB's sandbox nature. We've done one session so far and my group are really enjoying themselves. The maths isn't so bad if you have a calculator on hand. Recently I tried to do char gen for Battletech: A Time of War. Now THAT WAS SOME FUCKING MATHS! SW maths is nothing compared to the blatant algebra you have to do just to reach puberty in AToW. One of the most badly explained and needlessly complicated rulesets I've seen. It really makes me appreciate Savage Worlds even more now.

Someone did a Savage Worlds Battletech conversion - https://edoc.pub/savage-battletech-rules-revision-12-pdf-free.html

I heard it was pretty good. I think its based off of Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition (which has some small minor differences from the current SWADE edition).

And someone did some Lifepath for Chargen for it here - https://www.dicemonkey.net/2018/10/16/lifepath-character-creation-for-savage-worlds-battletech/


Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: King Tyranno on January 30, 2023, 11:21:22 AM
So I got my regular group to play Savage Pathfinder. I decided to do Keep on the Borderlands. It's so easy to convert stuff. Owing both to the simplicity of SWP and KotB's sandbox nature. We've done one session so far and my group are really enjoying themselves. The maths isn't so bad if you have a calculator on hand. Recently I tried to do char gen for Battletech: A Time of War. Now THAT WAS SOME FUCKING MATHS! SW maths is nothing compared to the blatant algebra you have to do just to reach puberty in AToW. One of the most badly explained and needlessly complicated rulesets I've seen. It really makes me appreciate Savage Worlds even more now.

Someone did a Savage Worlds Battletech conversion - https://edoc.pub/savage-battletech-rules-revision-12-pdf-free.html

I heard it was pretty good. I think its based off of Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition (which has some small minor differences from the current SWADE edition).

And someone did some Lifepath for Chargen for it here - https://www.dicemonkey.net/2018/10/16/lifepath-character-creation-for-savage-worlds-battletech/

I am so fucking happy right now. My main issue with Battletech RPGs is you either have too complex in AToW, or too simple in Mechwarrior Destiny. Having a Savage Worlds version of Battletech will actually serve me very well for the Solo RPG video series I'm going to make. So thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Recently I tried to do char gen for Battletech: A Time of War. Now THAT WAS SOME FUCKING MATHS!
... One of the most badly explained and needlessly complicated rulesets I've seen.

Lancer: "Hold my beer."

Lancer isn't as bad as AToW. It's mostly just point buy. Which on it's own I have no problem with. AToW has these complicated formulas just to add up basic stats that drags things down. Lancer's problem is that it does this thing SJW driven games do in that they thought of a "super cool" setting first, drew some art, and then did some rules. But without as much of an understanding of how tabletop RPGs work and the practicalities of running a game therein. SJWs do this weird focus on presentation and visuals over actual game mechanics all the time. It's super weird how much of a trend it is for them.  It actually has a similar problem to 4e in that it desperately wants to be a video game far more than it wants to be a tabletop RPG. And that's why Lancer in particular clunks and drags on. Because the people designing it didn't play enough TTRPGs and just had some video game ideas they wrote down and published as a TTRPG.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on January 30, 2023, 03:50:52 PM
My pleasure.

Savage Worlds scaling capacity is *really* high, and because its task-resolution mechanic is tightly abstracted, it can make turn very complicated systems under other games, run insanely smoother and faster on their engine.

The best part of it - any conversion you make, or borrow, is itself very tweakable to your exact needs with little effort. You can create whole subsystems, if you desire, even lifting whole parts of other systems right into it.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ocule on February 13, 2023, 09:59:41 PM
I wonder how many people run deluxe over swade
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GhostNinja on February 14, 2023, 09:28:06 AM

Someone did a Savage Worlds Battletech conversion - https://edoc.pub/savage-battletech-rules-revision-12-pdf-free.html

I heard it was pretty good. I think its based off of Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition (which has some small minor differences from the current SWADE edition).

And someone did some Lifepath for Chargen for it here - https://www.dicemonkey.net/2018/10/16/lifepath-character-creation-for-savage-worlds-battletech/

Its pretty good and probably could be improved with just a little work.  By the revision dates it doesn't appear to have been updated in some time.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GhostNinja on February 14, 2023, 09:29:03 AM
I wonder how many people run deluxe over swade

I am sure there are some holdouts.  The improvements in SWADE over Deluxe made switching the easiest decision I have ever made.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on February 14, 2023, 10:30:26 AM
I wonder how many people run deluxe over swade

I agree with Ghost - there are probably some out there. I don't know *why* you would stick with it. Anything Deluxe does differently like their Bennie/Shaken mechanic differences, could easily be imported into SWADE if you really wanted. Beyond that, SWADE really cleans up and evens out little mechanical inconsistencies.

My personal opinion is there is no reason to use Deluxe. Any type of change to the system you want to do in SWADE, can be done. I'd even say it can be done with more consistency in that if you make a change in SWADE it would require less downstream tweaking. But this is all low-effort stuff. I'm not going to argue with a Deluxe loyalist about whether it's "better" in the sense that 2e D&D is superior to 3e D&D (it is. just so you know), because the differences are vastly smaller by comparison. You can literally pick up any Deluxe edition content and port it over to SWADE with relative ease and run it as is.

(Mostly ditching the Charisma mechanic and just running everything else under the SWADE rules).

At my own table, I use a lot of Deluxe stuff that hasn't been ported over to SWADE as reference material. But I'm sure there are some folks out there, in the dark recesses of the void that clutch to their Deluxe rules... just like I hear of real monsters, I believe Pundit is one of them, that claim the original Deadlands rules (pre-Savage Worlds) are better (they're not), and refuse to use Savage Worlds.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on February 14, 2023, 10:33:23 AM

Someone did a Savage Worlds Battletech conversion - https://edoc.pub/savage-battletech-rules-revision-12-pdf-free.html

I heard it was pretty good. I think its based off of Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition (which has some small minor differences from the current SWADE edition).

And someone did some Lifepath for Chargen for it here - https://www.dicemonkey.net/2018/10/16/lifepath-character-creation-for-savage-worlds-battletech/

Its pretty good and probably could be improved with just a little work.  By the revision dates it doesn't appear to have been updated in some time.

Yeah! A night of conversion work would do wonders for this. It's probably a great starting point for any Battletech enthusiast. My god, it's been decades since I've played Battletech, I can't even *imagine* what having a Turn that lasted only a couple of minutes would be like. I remember leaving Battletech for good once I discovered Mekton for those exact reasons. I love the BT setting... but the task resolution took forever. I'd be interested in someone giving this a SWADE update for sure.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ghostmaker on February 14, 2023, 03:18:43 PM

Someone did a Savage Worlds Battletech conversion - https://edoc.pub/savage-battletech-rules-revision-12-pdf-free.html

I heard it was pretty good. I think its based off of Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition (which has some small minor differences from the current SWADE edition).

And someone did some Lifepath for Chargen for it here - https://www.dicemonkey.net/2018/10/16/lifepath-character-creation-for-savage-worlds-battletech/

Its pretty good and probably could be improved with just a little work.  By the revision dates it doesn't appear to have been updated in some time.

Yeah! A night of conversion work would do wonders for this. It's probably a great starting point for any Battletech enthusiast. My god, it's been decades since I've played Battletech, I can't even *imagine* what having a Turn that lasted only a couple of minutes would be like. I remember leaving Battletech for good once I discovered Mekton for those exact reasons. I love the BT setting... but the task resolution took forever. I'd be interested in someone giving this a SWADE update for sure.
Never played WH40K, I bet :D
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on February 14, 2023, 03:47:47 PM
I actually haven't! And it's another weird thing for me, given how long I've been in the trenches of this hobby.

I've played some WHFRP, nothing I'd consider "long term" or enough for me to be even more than a beginner in it. But I know a lot more about the lore of both WHF and 40k respectively than I have any right to.

And I always get right up to the rim of actually running it... but the system always seems a bit overwrought to me. It's *always* in the back of my mind of doing a WH/40k conversion to Savage Worlds, but I fear my understanding of Warhammer in either incarnation is up to the task that I'd be proud of.

Never say never tho.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Ocule on February 14, 2023, 09:52:54 PM
There are small things like no penalties on healing checks, before you took the wound penalty to medical checks to heal people. Same on recovery rolls.

Also liked the turning templates for vehicles and actual tabletop vehicle rules. The powers in deluxe with fixed trappings I feel offered more choice than on the fly customization and weird science felt more weird science.

Also minor nitpick but rate of fire ammo cost is just weird in swade but it makes sense. And the swade art kinda bad
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on February 14, 2023, 10:48:37 PM
Also minor nitpick but rate of fire ammo cost is just weird in swade but it makes sense. And the swade art kinda bad

Yeah the art is bad, so much so it's not even Deviantart-level :|

But anyway, since we're talking about Savage Worlds now, I just want to add my 2c to another product that I wish PEG will update: Showdown. I wish they'd come up with a newer version of it, one with cleaned up formatting and rules. I would really like to run a Jagged Alliance-style campaign with it.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GhostNinja on February 15, 2023, 10:53:11 AM

I agree with Ghost - there are probably some out there. I don't know *why* you would stick with it. Anything Deluxe does differently like their Bennie/Shaken mechanic differences, could easily be imported into SWADE if you really wanted. Beyond that, SWADE really cleans up and evens out little mechanical inconsistencies.

Yeah, SWADE Does things so much better.  I love that there are 5 skills you get mandatory.   I mean in Deluxe if you forget to get Notice then you have to do it unskilled?  That makes no sense.

(Mostly ditching the Charisma mechanic and just running everything else under the SWADE rules).

I cannot remember in any of my Savage Worlds games using Deluxe (and I used it a lot) ever using Charisma.  Or if it was used, it happened very rarely.

At my own table, I use a lot of Deluxe stuff that hasn't been ported over to SWADE as reference material. But I'm sure there are some folks out there, in the dark recesses of the void that clutch to their Deluxe rules... just like I hear of real monsters, I believe Pundit is one of them, that claim the original Deadlands rules (pre-Savage Worlds) are better (they're not), and refuse to use Savage Worlds.

Yeah switching over is pretty easy.  Some settings can be a pain.  I mostly do regular character creation using SWADE and integrate the special stuff from the setting in- along with it.  Not too difficult and there are plenty of SWADE settings that do have conversion rules to SWADE available for free.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GhostNinja on February 15, 2023, 10:56:58 AM

Yeah! A night of conversion work would do wonders for this. It's probably a great starting point for any Battletech enthusiast. My god, it's been decades since I've played Battletech, I can't even *imagine* what having a Turn that lasted only a couple of minutes would be like. I remember leaving Battletech for good once I discovered Mekton for those exact reasons. I love the BT setting... but the task resolution took forever. I'd be interested in someone giving this a SWADE update for sure.

I am going to look at the linked document for Deluxe and see what I can do to update it to SWADE.   It shouldn't be too hard and there is some good information there.  May expand it a bit.  We will see.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GhostNinja on February 15, 2023, 10:57:57 AM

Also minor nitpick but rate of fire ammo cost is just weird in swade but it makes sense. And the swade art kinda bad

It is weird but the ammo does work.  I have run plenty of SWADE games to know that.

The art is OK, it could be better.  But then Art in an RPG was never important to me.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: VisionStorm on February 15, 2023, 02:11:01 PM

I agree with Ghost - there are probably some out there. I don't know *why* you would stick with it. Anything Deluxe does differently like their Bennie/Shaken mechanic differences, could easily be imported into SWADE if you really wanted. Beyond that, SWADE really cleans up and evens out little mechanical inconsistencies.

Yeah, SWADE Does things so much better.  I love that there are 5 skills you get mandatory.   I mean in Deluxe if you forget to get Notice then you have to do it unskilled?  That makes no sense.

Kinda related to this, but if/when I get around playing Savage Worlds, I'm making Fighting and Shooting free too. Honestly ANYONE can pick up a weapon IRL and either swing it around or point it at someone. Sure, you need training to be good at it, but being able to hit someone untrained is NOT some kind of insurmountable task. Still, making such rulings in SW is so easy, I barely even feel like that's a nitpick.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
There are small things like no penalties on healing checks, before you took the wound penalty to medical checks to heal people. Same on recovery rolls.

Also liked the turning templates for vehicles and actual tabletop vehicle rules. The powers in deluxe with fixed trappings I feel offered more choice than on the fly customization and weird science felt more weird science.

Also minor nitpick but rate of fire ammo cost is just weird in swade but it makes sense. And the swade art kinda bad

Agree with all of the above. ESPECIALLY the fixed the trappings. I have it on my To Do list to bring those back to my SWADE games with some tweaks. I need to revisit the vehicle stuff, as I'm needing to create some more in-depth vehicle rules for a couple of projects I'm working on.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 03:17:05 PM

I agree with Ghost - there are probably some out there. I don't know *why* you would stick with it. Anything Deluxe does differently like their Bennie/Shaken mechanic differences, could easily be imported into SWADE if you really wanted. Beyond that, SWADE really cleans up and evens out little mechanical inconsistencies.

Yeah, SWADE Does things so much better.  I love that there are 5 skills you get mandatory.   I mean in Deluxe if you forget to get Notice then you have to do it unskilled?  That makes no sense.

Kinda related to this, but if/when I get around playing Savage Worlds, I'm making Fighting and Shooting free too. Honestly ANYONE can pick up a weapon IRL and either swing it around or point it at someone. Sure, you need training to be good at it, but being able to hit someone untrained is NOT some kind of insurmountable task. Still, making such rulings in SW is so easy, I barely even feel like that's a nitpick.

I'd make this setting-dependent. Normally I'd make everything contextual to the game because imo not everyone knows how to fight or shoot a gun/bow etc. But if you're running a fantasy game where people are rough and tumble - sure.

Or you could have cultural background Edges that everyone gets for freeeee! at Char Gen, where it nips that in the bud and keeps things nice and tidy.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 15, 2023, 05:29:44 PM
I'm thinking if I ran a more "Heroic" game, instead of adding extra wounds, I may give an extra pool of soak bennies. I think that might be the best way to replicate good fortune that pulp novel heroes tend to have.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GhostNinja on February 15, 2023, 07:06:57 PM
Kinda related to this, but if/when I get around playing Savage Worlds, I'm making Fighting and Shooting free too. Honestly ANYONE can pick up a weapon IRL and either swing it around or point it at someone. Sure, you need training to be good at it, but being able to hit someone untrained is NOT some kind of insurmountable task. Still, making such rulings in SW is so easy, I barely even feel like that's a nitpick.

Depending on the setting I agree.  If its a setting where the characters have military training I give them advances.   Usually I find in combat heavy games that players know to get fighting and shooting.   If not, I give them a gentle nudge that it would be a good idea.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on February 16, 2023, 10:59:18 AM
I'm thinking if I ran a more "Heroic" game, instead of adding extra wounds, I may give an extra pool of soak bennies. I think that might be the best way to replicate good fortune that pulp novel heroes tend to have.

LOL fuck that. Make them EARN those Bennies.

It's a simple solution tho. Just let people start with a few more as a Setting Rule for your game, you'll just have to figure out what that bonus number is. The real trick is, unintuitively, to make sure you're handing out more Bennies to encourage the kind of play you want. You don't want players hoarding Bennies for soaking. It's one of the issues that I fell into like all SW GM's do. I still have to remind myself to reward my players, but I'm getting much better about it.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: mudbanks on February 16, 2023, 10:53:12 PM
I reward them after a major fight or significant progression has been made into the scenario. I get a bit more stingy if they don't RP their characters well.
Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: tenbones on February 17, 2023, 10:23:51 AM
Rewarding Bennies is one of the trickiest things to remember and learn how to do for a Savage Worlds GM. ESPECIALLY if you're coming from d20.

When you realize that being too stingy causes players to horde them - it has a direct effect on your game sessions. If you do it too much, it obviously devalues them. But giving them out for obvious heroics, Hindrance setbacks, and just doing cool shit, is a great way for the Rule of Cool to have more meaning and positive player feedback.

Title: Re: Anyone playing Savage Worlds Pathfinder
Post by: GhostNinja on February 17, 2023, 10:29:25 AM
LOL fuck that. Make them EARN those Bennies.

I totally agree.  I hear people say that Bennies should flow like water but I think it makes the game too easy.  There has to be chances for failure and for things to be difficult where the players need to think about what they are going to do.