It's become a cliche, but Savage Worlds is definitely one of those games that plays slightly differently than it reads. If you ignore Shaken but give everyone an extra wound there would be some knock-on effects that might be counter to your aims.

For Extras, that wound is a round when they are up and active (though with a wound penalty) and they also get free attacks on people leaving combat, and count for gang-up. Also, you lose the possibility of a less combat focussed character making targets Shaken with a test and leaving them open to being finished off by the more lethal combatants.

For Wild Cards, unless you make the first wound 'free' you are also increasing the penalty on their Vigour check to avoid permanent injury when they go down, and that is already hard at -3.

I really would try out a few combats before adjusting. The game is super flexible but the design is deceptively tight, too.

Not as tight as GURPS with it's endless unexpected consequences but there are definitely interactions between the different moving parts.

Quote from: Effete on January 16, 2023, 11:54:45 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 03, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
I swear a result of s+4w came up at least once a fight even when we scaled the damage down to 2d8. The acing rules just make damage very volatile and it's landed on what was supposed to be a boss fight (oops it's down in one shot... so dramatic) or dropped a player out of the fight (soak to make it s+3w... base TN 7 because of the wound penalties basically mean you're done unless you've got some instant healing both in the setting and available).

Not sure of this was already mentioned, but the Soak roll in this example would not suffer from Wound penalties. If you are attempting to Soak Wounds, you don't apply penalties you WOULD receive from the attack, since the point of a Soak is to see if the damage never happens in the first place. You would only apply Would penalties from previous (unSoaked) Wounds.

So in the example, someone gets hit for three Wounds and wants to attempt a Soak. Assuming they have no other Wounds or Fatigue, the TN to Soak one Wound is 4, with every 4 points more on the roll removing another Wound. Hitting TN12 Soaks all three Wounds and also removes the Shaken condition as a bonus.

Sorry, wasn't quite clear. Not the soak itself, the rolls to unshake and be able to do anything afterwards or try to heal yourself all have the -3 wound penalty attached to them... so at least one bennie to unshake (because TN 7 is rough even with a d10) and, if you have the ability to heal then TN 7 for that too.

Basically, a -3 wound penalty is so bad you're basically useless. This is a problem with SW in general... their penalties are in general way too steep. If you're a wildcard with a d6 then you've got about 75% shot at TN4 normally. A -2 penalty drops your odds to about 25%. Spending a Bennie only offers another 25% shot at success. Even a d12 with a -2 is barely 67% odds of success.

And SW loves it's two-step penalties... you almost never see a -1 penalty... it's always -2 or -4 or -6. That leads to a lot of failures and tends to burn away the bennis of those who aren't good with the odds (if you need an Ace to succeed, spending a Bennie almost never helps).

In general the system math is just much less intuitive and the small number ranges (that turn into huge ranges on an Ace) can make it very swingy. It results in a very specific style of play that's great if you're into it, but definitely isn't for everyone.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 17, 2023, 08:18:45 AM

Quote from: Effete on January 17, 2023, 12:01:02 AM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 16, 2023, 01:18:02 PM

Quote(I had a player in my Beasts and Barbarians game - who was built to take on scary shit *die* of a heartattack while being jumpscared by a rat. FREAKY).

There are death-by-fear rules in BnB? Nice.

There are in Savage Worlds core, too. If someone fails a Fear check they need to roll d20 on the Fear Table. Getting 21+ results in a heart attack and instant death. Of course, getting "21" on a d20 means the object of the Fear check must have a fear modifier. It's gotta be one scary fukken rat.

  Could have been a Critical Failure on the Spirit/Guts roll, which applies +2 to the table, but you still need a 19 or 20. That's the kind of dice-rolling event that lives in legend.

True, and True.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 17, 2023, 09:52:34 AM
Sorry, wasn't quite clear. Not the soak itself, the rolls to unshake and be able to do anything afterwards or try to heal yourself all have the -3 wound penalty attached to them... so at least one bennie to unshake (because TN 7 is rough even with a d10) and, if you have the ability to heal then TN 7 for that too.

Basically, a -3 wound penalty is so bad you're basically useless. This is a problem with SW in general... their penalties are in general way too steep. If you're a wildcard with a d6 then you've got about 75% shot at TN4 normally. A -2 penalty drops your odds to about 25%. Spending a Bennie only offers another 25% shot at success. Even a d12 with a -2 is barely 67% odds of success.

And SW loves it's two-step penalties... you almost never see a -1 penalty... it's always -2 or -4 or -6. That leads to a lot of failures and tends to burn away the bennis of those who aren't good with the odds (if you need an Ace to succeed, spending a Bennie almost never helps).

In general the system math is just much less intuitive and the small number ranges (that turn into huge ranges on an Ace) can make it very swingy. It results in a very specific style of play that's great if you're into it, but definitely isn't for everyone.

Yeah, if you're a PC/Wildcard and are at 3-Wounds, you're in *deep* shit. Combat at that point should be trying to GTFO while you can. Healing (has been changed) - you don't get penalties for Healing a wounded person. But you DO get penalties if you're the one wounded doing the healing. I've seen a lot of people complain about how punishing the Death Spiral is (I personally like it). The *solution* is simple. Lower the penalties, or remove them!

If you look across all the settings for Savage Worlds - you'll see that each setting *usually* has unified damage values for normal weaponry, but if the setting has futuristic or setting-specific weaponry, that damage can scale much higher. The idea, presumably is that the armor within the setting will also be of equal value in context to the setting. Wound penalties remain constant, but they're not mandatory. And in high-damage settings/games - or maybe you're using Grim and Gritty rules - adjusting the Wound penalties might make sense for your games. It will *not* effect the over all game, but it will draw combat out a little bit.

You definitely have options in this regard. I'm still toying with the idea of giving everyone an extra Wound per rank for high-cinematic games.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 17, 2023, 09:52:34 AM

Quote from: Effete on January 16, 2023, 11:54:45 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 03, 2023, 12:36:45 PM
I swear a result of s+4w came up at least once a fight even when we scaled the damage down to 2d8. The acing rules just make damage very volatile and it's landed on what was supposed to be a boss fight (oops it's down in one shot... so dramatic) or dropped a player out of the fight (soak to make it s+3w... base TN 7 because of the wound penalties basically mean you're done unless you've got some instant healing both in the setting and available).

Not sure of this was already mentioned, but the Soak roll in this example would not suffer from Wound penalties. If you are attempting to Soak Wounds, you don't apply penalties you WOULD receive from the attack, since the point of a Soak is to see if the damage never happens in the first place. You would only apply Would penalties from previous (unSoaked) Wounds.

So in the example, someone gets hit for three Wounds and wants to attempt a Soak. Assuming they have no other Wounds or Fatigue, the TN to Soak one Wound is 4, with every 4 points more on the roll removing another Wound. Hitting TN12 Soaks all three Wounds and also removes the Shaken condition as a bonus.

Sorry, wasn't quite clear. Not the soak itself, the rolls to unshake and be able to do anything afterwards or try to heal yourself all have the -3 wound penalty attached to them... so at least one bennie to unshake (because TN 7 is rough even with a d10) and, if you have the ability to heal then TN 7 for that too.

Ahh, okay! Yeah, you're right.

QuoteBasically, a -3 wound penalty is so bad you're basically useless. This is a problem with SW in general... their penalties are in general way too steep. If you're a wildcard with a d6 then you've got about 75% shot at TN4 normally. A -2 penalty drops your odds to about 25%. Spending a Bennie only offers another 25% shot at success. Even a d12 with a -2 is barely 67% odds of success.

That's kind of a feature, not a flaw. Taking three Wounds means you're practically dead. You shouldn't be looking to continue the fight, you should be dragging your bloody ass into Cover and calling a medic for help. This is one of the best features of Savage Worlds... it promotes cooperative gameplay. The lonewolf character is a liability.

Also, the Nerves of Steel Edges are there purposely to help mitigate Wound penalties. If you want your character to be a badass who can fight through pain, you need to invest in that type of build. Overall, though, the general idea is to not get hit, rather than being able to take more damage. Improve your Parry by increasing your Fighting skill, or take Edges like Block or Dodge. More importantly, use Cover. Simply dropping prone essentially gives you Medium Cover against ranged attacks more than 6 yards (3") away.

I'm not going to be a dick and say "you're playing wrong," but it sounds like you might be expecting the game to function in a way it wasn't designed to. Combat in SW is much less like DnD and a lot more like war-gaming. Tactics matter, and getting hurt sucks.

QuoteAnd SW loves it's two-step penalties... you almost never see a -1 penalty... it's always -2 or -4 or -6. That leads to a lot of failures and tends to burn away the bennis of those who aren't good with the odds (if you need an Ace to succeed, spending a Bennie almost never helps).

I agree with you here. There are homebrew rules to address the way Scaling works, basically adjusting Scale Modifiers by +/-1 for every two Sizes, rather than +/-2 for every 4 Sizes. You can probably half the penalties for ranged combat without screwing too much up. The problem is then going in and tinkering with all the Edges that mitigate penalties so they don't become too OP.

QuoteIn general the system math is just much less intuitive and the small number ranges (that turn into huge ranges on an Ace) can make it very swingy. It results in a very specific style of play that's great if you're into it, but definitely isn't for everyone.

Yeah, true. I love Savage Worlds. Been playing it for over 10 years. But I know people who just couldn't get into it. As mentioned, the combat is one of the areas where people who are used to other systems have trouble enjoying it.

Quote from: dbm on January 17, 2023, 09:18:35 AM
It's become a cliche, but Savage Worlds is definitely one of those games that plays slightly differently than it reads. If you ignore Shaken but give everyone an extra wound there would be some knock-on effects that might be counter to your aims.

For Extras, that wound is a round when they are up and active (though with a wound penalty) and they also get free attacks on people leaving combat, and count for gang-up. Also, you lose the possibility of a less combat focussed character making targets Shaken with a test and leaving them open to being finished off by the more lethal combatants.

For Wild Cards, unless you make the first wound 'free' you are also increasing the penalty on their Vigour check to avoid permanent injury when they go down, and that is already hard at -3.

I really would try out a few combats before adjusting. The game is super flexible but the design is deceptively tight, too.

Not as tight as GURPS with it's endless unexpected consequences but there are definitely interactions between the different moving parts.

^^^^ Very much this!

Shaken can sometimes be a pain to navigate when you have a ton of Extras (I once ran a combat with over 35 enemies... try that in DnD you fags!), but removing Shaken would have a domino effect that would reduce combat to just a slogfest. Definitely give a few a tries before you change things. It does play differently from how it reads (I learned that recently when I tried changing the cyberware Humanity Loss in CP: RED... it reads like it's overly punishing, but actually has little impact on the game).

Quote from: dbm on January 17, 2023, 09:18:35 AM
It's become a cliche, but Savage Worlds is definitely one of those games that plays slightly differently than it reads. If you ignore Shaken but give everyone an extra wound there would be some knock-on effects that might be counter to your aims.

For Extras, that wound is a round when they are up and active (though with a wound penalty) and they also get free attacks on people leaving combat, and count for gang-up. Also, you lose the possibility of a less combat focussed character making targets Shaken with a test and leaving them open to being finished off by the more lethal combatants.

For Wild Cards, unless you make the first wound 'free' you are also increasing the penalty on their Vigour check to avoid permanent injury when they go down, and that is already hard at -3.

I really would try out a few combats before adjusting. The game is super flexible but the design is deceptively tight, too.

Not as tight as GURPS with it's endless unexpected consequences but there are definitely interactions between the different moving parts.

Good points overall, though, some of this involves stuff I've also considered ignoring as well. I've thought about maybe ignoring wound penalties or reducing them by half (rounded down) for pretty much the same reasons Chris brought up (plus also cuz it would be one less thing to track). And I also thought of ignoring the Gang Up or retreat from combat rules because I've always considered similar rules in other games (like D&D) too punishing and even unrealistic as well.

I was ganged up by bullies a couple of times when I was a kid and I always managed to break away from them unless they completely blocked my way (and I was a flat footed overweight kid, so it's not like I was quick or anything). This isn't to say that something like flanking isn't real, cuz I definitely think that being hit from behind has a greater chance of success than a frontal assault. But absolutely everyone within melee reach getting a free shot if you try to run away beggars belief and doesn't entirely match my own experience. Maybe the most immediate opponent at your escape route might get one in, but once you reach a certain amount of people pressed closely they just get in the way of each other too much for every single one of them to get a free hit.

I still haven't made up my mind to do any of these changes (or to what extent I would do them if I did), but I would probably ignore free attacks against fleeing opponents regardless. And also reduce the bonuses for Ganging Up a bit (+1 to lateral and +2 to rear opponents), cuz cumulative bonuses for each opponent (like multiple opponents attacking you at the same time isn't enough of an advantage) is too much. And a +4 bonus (max) in a game where the base TN is 4 and the average die roll is 1d6 is just devastating, specially when that would apply to 4+ opponents.

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 17, 2023, 05:05:02 PMAnd a +4 bonus (max) in a game where the base TN is 4 and the average die roll is 1d6 is just devastating, specially when that would apply to 4+ opponents.

A high-skill melee combatant can easily have a parry over 10, so those gang-up bonuses become one of the few ways less skilled opponents can threaten them. Combat is the one area of the game where target numbers can get really quite high.

In a game I ran set in Eberron, one PC had a parry of 10 with relatively moderate stats - Fighting d8, large shield, and the Block Edge. And the Block Edge reduces the gang-up bonus by 1, too.

They have reduced the effect of shields in Savage Pathfinder / the Fantasy Companion by saying you can only apply the parry bonus against half your opponents, but even so defences can get high.

Shaken is useful in that it provides a state between wounded and no effect, allowing marginally effective attacks to rack up into damage. Tracking it is easy enough by tilting the miniature or the character sheet. I actually preferred the prior editions handling of it, needing a raise to act on the same turn as shaking it off, instead of pass a vigor check and get a regular action. It strongly discouraged getting pounded on and made for an impactful choice to benny shaken off or roll for it and possibly  benny a reroll.

The combat is different than D&D, but that is a selling point. I sold the system to my GM by running on of the one sheet adventure combats and getting through it in a reasonable time compared to D&D. Just how fast combat can be still sneaks up to the GM sometimes "I didn't have more prepared because I forgot how fast combat was..."

Quote from: dbm on January 17, 2023, 05:19:12 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 17, 2023, 05:05:02 PMAnd a +4 bonus (max) in a game where the base TN is 4 and the average die roll is 1d6 is just devastating, specially when that would apply to 4+ opponents.

A high-skill melee combatant can easily have a parry over 10, so those gang-up bonuses become one of the few ways less skilled opponents can threaten them. Combat is the one area of the game where target numbers can get really quite high.

In a game I ran set in Eberron, one PC had a parry of 10 with relatively moderate stats - Fighting d8, large shield, and the Block Edge. And the Block Edge reduces the gang-up bonus by 1, too.

They have reduced the effect of shields in Savage Pathfinder / the Fantasy Companion by saying you can only apply the parry bonus against half your opponents, but even so defences can get high.

Ah, I didn't take shields or the Block edge into consideration. But you need to have a large shield to get a Parry value as high as you mentioned, which might be too cumbersome in some situations and doesn't apply to characters using two-handed weapons. And the Block bonus is only +1 initially, plus you have to be Seasoned for some reason to even get it, or Veteran to improve it to +2 (though, that one's kinda good for a game with such tight maths).

One of the things that kinda annoys me about this game sometimes is the rank requirements for Edges. A lot of edges are gated behind higher ranks and the Novice versions are kinda dubious sometimes. Like for example, I wanted to create an inspirational character modelled after a D&D bard and you need to be Seasoned to get the edge for Leadership benefits to even apply to PCs/Wild Cards. Novice characters are stuck affecting only Extras, which is useless, unless you have a bunch of followers with you, which 1) requires your game to focus on carting around followers (which rarely ever happens in my games), and 2) how would a novice even be able to attract followers? You could hire mercs, I suppose, but that's a big expense just to be able to maybe get a situational benefit that only applies to your mercs sometimes.

The 'Born A Hero'  setting rules may help here. It removes rank requirements (except for Legendary) when buying Edges at character creation. That is presented in the SWADE core rule book but not part of the Savage Pathfinder implementation out-of-the-box.

Something to consider when looking at Edges and Gear that give +1, +2, +4... is that in Savage Worlds a +1 is a very *substantial* bonus. It's the equivalent of a +4 in D&D.

So any Edge, Gear bonus, Environmental bonus that nets you any kind of advantage has big numerical effects and should be treated accordingly. This is why you see most magic items in Savage Worlds tend to give bonuses to AP, or Damage, or other effects than to hit (but those exist too).

Block + Shield is a *solid* combination, as is Dodge... in fact for most melee characters they're staples in my games. It's pretty easy to have starting characters be veritable tanks that takes me whole mobs of monsters to swarm them to even have a chance of taking them down. Goblins are actually especially nasty if they have a leader with Gang Up Tactics, but even then, a PC can likely mow them down. Especially if they go the Two-Weapon fighting route, and judiciously use Shield-bashing, they can easily be smashing the Goblins to death, while parrying most incoming attacks with relative ease... unless those dice explode. heheh

@Tenbones Your dissemination of all this info about SWPF (and in general, your discussions about SW) has brought me to a precipice. I bought all the Savage Rifts books with the credit I got from NKG for trade when I sent in my entire D&D 5E collection that's been gathering dust on my shelf for the past three years.

So now to pitch to my group Savage Rifts (and also Primeval Thule using SWADE + Fantasy Companion) as our new main games...

I've always been interested in Savage Worlds, but every time I've had the opportunity to actually play there's been some sort of twat at the table who has ruined the experience for me.  It's worth noting that the local SW scene was dominated by a (somewhat) prominent game writer/designer who is an actual douche.  He's since left the area so things might be better, but I still see a lot of the old names on local game postings so I'm leery. 

However this thread has convinced me that I might be better served to take a different approach to getting the game on the table.  I'm thinking I just need to bite the bullet and run a game with my existing gaming group who I can trust to keep things fun at the table.  While this might seem like kind of a minor revelation, it's notable to me in that

a) I generally don't lay out a lot towards a new game unless I've had some substantial experience with it first.  In this case I've played some Savage Showdowns miniatures games, but have little actual experience with SW as a full on RPG.
b)  This well outside my groups wheelhouse.  While a couple have some experience with multiple systems, most know nothing but BXD&D (and a couple don't know even that very well) so this could be quite the stretch for them.

I'm wondering if there's some good resources online, say free adventures and the like, that I could use to defray the costs od this lettle experiment a bit?

I would just like to say thank you for all the commentary in this thread.  It convinced me last week to purchase SWADE and the Fantasy Companion, after discussion with my wife and daughters (the OGL debacle has really opened them up to non-D&D systems).  We will be playing this alongside Castles & Crusades for our family games.

I really like the Fantasy Companion.  As I told my best friend, who mostly DMs for us, I can use these rules to mimic D&D, Palladium Fantasy, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Exalted, and match literary works easily, all without having a too-complex rules system.  Speed of play and imaginative play are important to me.

Again, thank you for all the analysis and tips put in here.