Quote from: Christopher Brady;981440For me, the quick start felt more like FATE from my limited experience, there was a tug of war for resources so we could roll the best amount of dice.  I don't get that with FFG's Star Wars, but your mileage may vary.

Well, for me it's just the common conceit in both games that, in order to make a RPG interesting, you need to have convoluted dice rolling mechanisms. If the dice rolling processes draw more attention to themselves than the actual roleplaying my group just lose interest in the game fast.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;981420Unfortunately, no-one ever made anything for Conan for Mythras, although they did have that Legend campaign trilogy that were very similar to Conan. Can't quite remember their names!

Oh I did. Its sitting on one of my hard drives at the moment, and several fans have their own hacks. Unfortunately however, in my position I cannot release it into the wild.

Quote from: Pete Nash;981443Oh I did. Its sitting on one of my hard drives at the moment, and several fans have their own hacks. Unfortunately however, in my position I cannot release it into the wild.

Could you file out the IP references and just call it Mythic Hyperborea or something?

Quote from: HorusArisen;981249Which one would you choose?

The best Conan campaign I've run (and sometimes played in) used GURPS, which published a surprisingly good setting book and a series of solo-style adventures. Plus there is a lot of GURPS 3E material for historical settings that make really nice resources for a Conan game (China, Places of Mystery, Egypt, etc.). So, that's a pretty accessible and good choice.

If you were going to gin up your own setting materials, some version of Runequest/BRP is probably best. The magic from Call of Cthulhu is by far the best match (Howard was very influenced by Lovecraft), and you can basically bolt that on to any other BRP style game without having to make up new rules.

Quote from: Larsdangly;981450The best Conan campaign I've run (and sometimes played in) used GURPS, which published a surprisingly good setting book and a series of solo-style adventures. Plus there is a lot of GURPS 3E material for historical settings that make really nice resources for a Conan game (China, Places of Mystery, Egypt, etc.). So, that's a pretty accessible and good choice.

If you were going to gin up your own setting materials, some version of Runequest/BRP is probably best. The magic from Call of Cthulhu is by far the best match (Howard was very influenced by Lovecraft), and you can basically bolt that on to any other BRP style game without having to make up new rules.

I'm liking Mythras for it. Wouldn't mind a setting book from them but I'm sure I can pull plenty of info from the Mophidius books.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;981445Could you file out the IP references and just call it Mythic Hyperborea or something?

Since it is filled to the brim with quotes from the Conan stories and is specifically written to provide mechanical support for Hyborian creatures and cultures, it would gut the entire point of it. Gentlemanly behaviour towards Modiphious aside (who have to cover licencing costs remember); anything I personally write and throw out to the community is now vulnerable to legal challenge, placing TDM at risk - no matter any protestations on my side that it is for the fans and not intended to make money.

A Mythic Hyperborea is a bit academic anyway. If you look at the combat, magic, cults & brotherhoods it is obvious to many that Mythras is designed to run Howardian pulp fantasy out of the box, whilst Monster Island further expanded it to cover CAS literature. In the meantime I wholeheartedly support other poster's suggestions of using Xoth, GURPS Conan and the Modiphius books for background material.

Quote from: Voros;981419Is the Doom mechanic essential or can it be stripped out?

This was exactly my hope.  I regularly hack, cut, and paste games anyway and I figured I could make this work. In further analysis, and play testing I was both shocked and disappointed at how full ingrained the meta mechanics are in the system.  This isn't a game where you can just ignore hero points.  The game does not function, at all, without the meta currencies.

We discussed how to strip doom/momentum out of the game in depth in a thread over a year ago, but hell if I can find it.  It boils down the fact that to doom is the counterbalance and consequence for momentum and other narrative powers of the players. You cant remove the GM meta mechanics without removing the player meta mechanics, and you can't remove the player meta mechanics because even basic actions like casting spells or making armor saves require the use of narrative mechanical currency. FATE can be played as a fairly traditional IC game with a few adjustments, but the narrative mechanics are more fully enmeshed with core of the system in 2d20.  They cannot be removed without surgery to almost every aspect of the game and the result would be an unworkable mess unless you created a bunch of patches to fix it.  Maybe CRK can find the portion of thread where we deconstructed it in some detail.

Quote from: Madprofessor;981484The game does not function, at all, without the meta currencies

Obvious nonsense! The developers has officially stated, for the record, that if you don't like the Doom-mechanic (or more specifically, MC3's Symmetry-points - which is the same thing), you can just ignore them and play without.
When I inquired to the devs as to how exactly one would go about such a thing without a bunch of houserules exceeding the page count of the original game - crickets!.
I fear I shall still ponder this question at my deathbed.

Quote from: baragei;981496Obvious nonsense! The developers has officially stated, for the record, that if you don't like the Doom-mechanic (or more specifically, MC3's Symmetry-points - which is the same thing), you can just ignore them and play without.
When I inquired to the devs as to how exactly one would go about such a thing without a bunch of houserules exceeding the page count of the original game - crickets!.
I fear I shall still ponder this question at my deathbed.

Well, to be fair, my analysis on stripping out the meta game was based on the quick start rules and things may have changed.  I haven't looked at the game much since then. When I have time, I'll have to find the portion of thread where we deconstructed the quick start rules for feasibility of playing without the OoC mechanics so I can offer a little more concrete examples rather than just blather.  Whatever Chris or Nathan may have said officially or unofficially, I don't think you can't just ignore doom and momentum in the game as they are  integral to resolving action in the game (or at least were during quickstart), but by all means download the free quickstart and see for yourself.

I am still not finding the thread I  am looking for but I did find this post by CRK that speaks to it:

QuoteOriginally Posted by CRKrueger

Combat Momentum Uses

    Bonus Damage(1): A character can increase the damage inflicted by a successful attack, regardless of the type of attack. Each Momentum spent adds +1 damage.
    Confidence(1): The character gains 1 Morale Soak per Momentum spent (maximum 4) until the start of his next turn.
    Disarm(2/3): One weapon held by the target is knocked away and falls to the ground within Reach. This costs 2 points of Momentum if the target is holding the weapon in one hand or 3 Momentum if the weapon is braced or held in two hands.
    Penetration(1): The damage inflicted by the current attack ignores an amount of Soak equal to twice the Momentum spent.
    Re-roll Damage(1): The player may re-roll any number of damage dice from the current attack, 1 per Momentum spent.
    Second Wind(1): The character recovers 1 point of Vigor or Resolve for each Momentum spent.
    Secondary Target(1): A second target within Reach of the primary target is also affected by the attack, and suffers half the attack's damage, rounding down.
    Swift Action(2): The character gains an additional Standard Action, increasing the difficulty by one step on any skill test that action requires. This may only be done once per round.
    Withdraw(1): The character leaves the Reach of an enemy, without triggering any Retaliate Reactions.



Other Momentum Uses

    Speed(1): Perform a task in half the normal time.
    Interference(1): Increase an opponent's skill test difficulty by +1.
    Awareness(1): Ask the gamemaster a pertinent question about the situation, the characters present, or something else that the player character might be able to discern with that skill test.



Fortune Uses

    Bonus Die: Add an extra d20 to a skill test, up to the maximum of three additional d20s. The extra die is treated as having automatically rolled a 1.
    Bonus Action: Perform an additional Standard Action on your turn.
    Second Wind: Recover all lost Vigor or Resolve (choose one).
    Overcome Weakness: Ignore effects of Wounds or Trauma (choose one) until the end of the current scene.
    Story Declaration: Introduce a fact or add a detail to the current scene. The gamemaster may veto some story declarations, or require multiple Fortune points for particularly large or significant declarations.



So looking at these, a few points pop out.
1. With Momentum, there's very few things that you couldn't view from an IC/setting viewpoint, as part of "doing something really well and psyching yourself and others up to do well".
2. Fortune, however, is much more powerful, as it guarantees success, not to mention allows direct Narrative Editing and thus it is much more of a Player mechanic as opposed to a Character mechanic.

The ways to keep the system as character-facing as possible, based on my player's input, would possibly be to...

    Eliminate the "Buying Dice by Giving Doom" aspect. Then there's no "should I" thought involved. Any stuff the PCs spend is generated by their own success.
    Get rid of Mobs except as literal collectives like a School of Piranhas or Pit of Snakes.
    Make Momentum singular, no pool or cross spends (maybe a little hardcore).
    Be very careful with the Awareness Momentum spend.
    Get rid of Fortune entirely, it's too powerful to be fully IC.
    Make a range system.



So in essence, make the game a dual point system that neither side ever "banks". Now this is going to cause the GM a bit of work because if I want NPCs to do certain things, I must spend Doom. I also have to worry about how to do Reactions.

A simpler and less hardcore way to do it would be to get rid of Fortune, keep Momentum as is with a PC bank that erodes and Doom as a NPC bank that doesn't erode. However, without the "buying dice for Doom mechanic" you're going to end up having entire fights without spending any Doom as a GM no matter how well you're doing because you're going to want a Shaman to actually be casting spells at some point.

There's no way to fully make this game "intra-diegetic" as I see it without some serious reconstruction. The best you're gonna do is mitigate it to taste.

 

Quote from: Madprofessor;981401So, anybody here try Beasts and Barbarians?  I have the core book, but there is a ton of other stuff out for it.  What is the quality of the other Beasts and Barbarian products/setting/adventures?  I've been on the fence about them for some time about it.

Yeah, I've run a bunch of one-shots and short multi-session scenarios with it. It's a great S&S game and, with just a little work, could do Conan perfectly fine. It's often described as "Conan with the serial numbers filed off," though I can't say that's 100% accurate.

The various supplements and adventures vary a bit in usefulness. Stuff like the gladiator or pirate books are excellent for those sorts of campaigns and unnecessary otherwise. The extra setting material is good, and the adventures range from very mediocre ("Go here, kill some things") to very good. I particularly had fun with Shadows Over Ekul, where one of the party had to pose as a noble prince-type going to meet his (unwilling) fiancee and uncover the evil plot. In general, the longer adventures are pretty good while the short ones are very forgettable.

Quote from: CRKrueger;981331For me, the best Conan RPG is Mythras, hands down.  But...

If you can handle the Doom mechanic of 2d20, it is a pretty fun system, the combat has nice detail without being so crunchy it's unwieldy.

If you wanted Savage Worlds, Beasts and Barbarians using elements from Totems of the Dead, Solomon Kane, Horror Companion, Realms of Cthulhu, etc. would work.

Going even lighter, there's Barbarians of Lemuria.

There's also Crypts & Things from D101 Games: Crypts & Things | D101 Games.

Quote from: Pete Nash;978062Hit Locations? 'And the Cimmerian came, with a desperate leap and a humming slash of his sword. The beautiful head rolled from the top of the screen in a jet of dark blood and fell at his feet, and he gave back, fearing to touch it.'

Piercing? 'Fighting as he had never fought before, straining every last ounce of effort to parry the blade that flickered like lightning about his head, Zaporavo in desperation caught a full stroke near his hilt, and felt his whole arm go numb beneath the terrific impact. That stroke was instantly followed by a thrust with such terrible drive behind it that the sharp point ripped through chain-mail and ribs like paper, to
transfix the heart beneath.

I think this stuff is great for NPCs and monsters, but not for PCs. Conan doesn't get stabbed in the heart or have his limbs crushed or severed in Howard's works. When he gets captured, it''s usually because of poison, magic, or a crack on the head he didn't see coming. In that sense, I find Mythras & Runequest to be ill-fitting. The increasing hit points in d20 works well for Conan, IMHO. He could fall 100' off a cliff onto a bed of razor sharp rocks and still live without any lasting injury. Any why is it? It's because he's Conan. Mythras doesn't allow for that type of 'immunity.' If Conan were to fall off that cliff in RQ/Mythras, he'd either be dead or a mass of shattered body parts and more than likely permanently maimed. When I designed Red Mists, I made the system to specifically allow for the hacking of enemies but not PCs.

As for the 2d20 Conan game, it seems too slow to me. Sword & sorcery combat should be fast & furious, and I'm not convinced the Modiphius system can do that.

As always, a matter of preference & opinion.

Quote from: 3rik;981571There's also Crypts & Things from D101 Games: Crypts & Things | D101 Games.

Is that actually for sale and in print again? Every time I check it's out of print with a new edition pending.

Quote from: vivsavage;981578I think this stuff is great for NPCs and monsters, but not for PCs. Conan doesn't get stabbed in the heart or have his limbs crushed or severed in Howard's works. When he gets captured, it''s usually because of poison, magic, or a crack on the head he didn't see coming. In that sense, I find Mythras & Runequest to be ill-fitting. The increasing hit points in d20 works well for Conan, IMHO. He could fall 100' off a cliff onto a bed of razor sharp rocks and still live without any lasting injury. Any why is it? It's because he's Conan.

Thus we return to the perennial question of whether an RPG should be modelling the immunity of a literary setting's central character(s). We all know that Conan couldn't die otherwise Howard would have thrown away one of his most popular income revenues. Yet less egregiously than many authors since, he wrote the stories in such a way that Conan remains vulnerable to injury, being outnumbered, capture... heck, lets say it bluntly... losing and fleeing the fight every once in a while.

I like to think this is why many folks feel that BRP/RQ/Mythras is such a good fit. Its the feeling of vulnerability and recognition that Howard was striving to retell certain realities of combat, that these systems try to model: locational blows, single hit incapacitation, damage reducing armour, the ability to survive a fight by parrying, outmanoeuvring multiple foes, and so on.

The idea that Conan would bounce back up from a 100' fall onto sharp rocks, is to me the antithesis of the character. Instead I image that he might roll over the edge, but instead grab a ledge or root before he plummeted. But that's my own personal opinion.

Howard himself seems to have had a rather pessimistic view of falling...

'Take your plots to hell with you!' he roared, and like a sack of salt, he hurled the prince of Pellia
far out, to fall through empty space for a hundred and fifty feet. The people gave back as the body
came hurtling down, to smash on the marble pave, spattering blood and brains, and lie crushed in its
splintered armor, like a mangled beetle. - The Scarlet Citadel

...although the following quote supports your view of Conan's immunity, if not the distance dropped.

He did not fall any great distance, though it was far enough to have snapped the leg bones of a man
not built of steel springs and whalebone. - The Slithering Shadow

QuoteMythras doesn't allow for that type of 'immunity.' If Conan were to fall off that cliff in RQ/Mythras, he'd either be dead or a mass of shattered body parts and more than likely permanently maimed. When I designed Red Mists, I made the system to specifically allow for the hacking of enemies but not PCs.

Mythras instead offers Luck Points so that Conan wouldn't necessarily fall in the first place. Not that I have any problem with permanently maiming PCs. Those beggars have to come from somewhere right?

QuoteAs for the 2d20 Conan game, it seems too slow to me. Sword & sorcery combat should be fast & furious, and I'm not convinced the Modiphius system can do that.

Totally agree that S&S combat should be fast and furious. I suppose my own preference is to avoid games where I feel immune until I have a handful of Hit Points left. Rather I want to embrace to feeling of risk at all times, since gambling my character's life makes the reward that much more satisfying (assuming I survive). However I have no idea whether Modiphius 2d20 embraces this sensibility as I've never had the pleasure of playing it.

QuoteAs always, a matter of preference & opinion.

Yes indeed.