I don't see Dungeon Fantasy as toned down or cut back, just specialized.  The problem I see is that it doesn't have an obvious advantage over every other beautifully illustrated and packaged dungeon crawl game out there.  I don't think SJG will ever want to reformat it to 8.5 x 11 but I wish they'd consider it.   Try putting it out in a soft back for around $30.

Quote from: David Johansen;1025800I don't see Dungeon Fantasy as toned down or cut back, just specialized.  The problem I see is that it doesn't have an obvious advantage over every other beautifully illustrated and packaged dungeon crawl game out there.  I don't think SJG will ever want to reformat it to 8.5 x 11 but I wish they'd consider it.   Try putting it out in a soft back for around $30.

It was released as softcover books (the two main ones for $12.95 each) and there are 26 expansions (2 softcover, the rest PDF) before the DF boxed set.

I agree there isn't an obvious advantage over other games, though it seems to me it could show some of the advantage by running the game where it can be seen by people, and they could notice that the combat plays out in a different way from any other game, which to me is the reason I choose GURPS for pretty much everything. Nice components (maps & counters) and demonstrations of the game in play can, I think, expose that to the players who would appreciate it but who haven't seen it before.

However I think it would be even more accessible if the characters were lower-point (mainly so they were less complicated), and more attractive/interesting if the setting were less generic/cliche/D&D-like.

(Also I agree with most of what trechriron just posted.)

Yeah, I like lower point games too but they went with Dungeon Fantasy because it sells better than other lines and Dungeon Fantasy did 250 points.  I'd have liked some more setting and a little less silly but the silly's not overwhelming and a bit of self aware humour can be refreshing in a market dominated by grimdark all the time.

I hate to say "I told you so"... oh, who am I kidding? I love it!

Is GURPS an example of swine gaming now since you are so clearly gleeful that DFPRG isn't successful or are you just being a jackass?

Quote from: Manic Modron;1026369Is GURPS an example of swine gaming now since you are so clearly gleeful that DFPRG isn't successful or are you just being a jackass?

Just being a jack ass.

Quote from: Ulairi;1026420Just being a jack ass.

Some of us DID predict it would not do what it set out to do. Sometimes the truth just hurts.

It is the gravedancing that is the jack assery, not whether he was right, though his reasons are suspect.

Quote from: trechriron;1026454Some of us DID predict it would not do what it set out to do. Sometimes the truth just hurts.

I think some things were ill considered.  There was always a disconnect between appealing to the fans and making an accessible starter kit.  As it happens they leaned towards appealing to the fans and made something more complex than it could have been.  Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful boxed set. I think it might have been better to include the GM screen and companion in the box but I understand that would have jacked up the price point too much.  I don't think going cheaper would have sold any more copies.  I don't think a book would have gotten SJG any data about whether a boxed set would do better.  The high point total and cinematic rules are a choice I wouldn't have gone with but I don't think it's the wrong choice.  People who try Dungeon Fantasy rpg will be playing with highly competent, powerful characters and that can be fun.  Failure is frustrating and I think it makes sense to try providing  positive first experience.

It just needed, something more.  Let's call it "ZING".  It might have been interlocking dungeon tiles.  It might have been a setting and more adventure material.  It might have been a random dungeon generator of some sort allowing solo play.  Heck, candles and a primer on real witch craft by The Pundit.  I don't know.  The reality is that the market is crowded and beyond the ruleset, DFRPG is just one more beautifully produced box on the shelf.

I think, given time, it might have staying power.  The product is solid.  If there's one thing SJG gets right it's solid product.  I just think it needed something more to grab people's attention.  I'm not claiming to know what.  I'm told half naked women were right out

GURPS is really good at certain things. D&D is not one of them.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027034GURPS is really good at certain things. D&D is not one of them.

I haven't really heard that the game fails in play. Just that it wasn't a commercial success, in large part because of the expensive production costs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027034GURPS is really good at certain things. D&D is not one of them.

It depends what you mean by D&D.

For my part, I ran the Majestic Wilderlands with AD&D, OD&D, Fantasy Hero, Fantasy Age, Fudge/Fate, and GURPS. In all of them the players were doing the same things for the same reasons including exploring dungeons.

GURPS can do fantasy, but what it does well is low-power low-magic fantasy. Otherwise you're up to your wazoo in point-buy, and you don't get the right kind of inflation for high-level hp or spells.

Which only matters if you think that HP & spell inflation is essential to a game about a small team of specialists going into dangerous places for fortune and glory.

GURPS, specifically DFRPG, doesn't have to emulate D&D with all its D&Disms.  It just has to take the useful tropes of a traditional dungeon crawl and build its own game around the skeleton.

Granted, 3e was pretty choppy for the purpose, mechanically speaking.  4e has developed a lot of good tools for the purpose though, from DFRPG to the Dungeon Fantasy pdfs that inspired it to supplemental rules like Divine Favor,  Incantation Magic and the excellent advice in GURPS: Action.

The main problem these days isn't that GURPS isn't suited for it, but the examples and frameworks are all over the place.  

"Powered by GURPS" is still looking like it will be a good option for realized games instead of the system mastery required in the toolkit.  What isn't a good option is a pricey box set that is only good for one purchase per group.

I quite agree with the previous post!

I'm really curious about this detail:

Quote from: Manic Modron;1027487Granted, 3e was pretty choppy for the purpose, mechanically speaking.  4e has developed a lot of good tools for the purpose though, from DFRPG to the Dungeon Fantasy pdfs that inspired it to supplemental rules like Divine Favor,  Incantation Magic and the excellent advice in GURPS: Action.

What do you see as the 3e parts that were choppy for dungeon adventures?