Ooh, Suggestion! I love that spell for my villainous magical NPCs. Thank goodness, outside on Action Surge (Fighter Wizard gish), you can't cast Message and this at the same turn. Whispered suggestions would be 'teh brokken' against my PCs, *cough*, er, my setting NPCs.

You don't see it as much in AL, as you don't see as much Enchanter or Illusionist, since there's a lot more in situ combat. But that's neither here nor there. Those two magic schools caused some of the most delicious headaches throughout editions.

This gets back to WotC's notoriously shitty wordings. First problem word, "obviously," as in obviously harmful acts. This alone suggests only the blatant, clear and present danger, harmful acts. I could have given the example some leeway, as "give" (second problem word) is not "give away." Which would make sense as it would be perfectly common for a knight to hand off his charge to a peasant to go stable and care. But alas WotC doubled down with "obviously" and we're left with GM judgment taking up the editor's blue pencil.

I'd lean on the words "make the action sound reasonable," in the previous sentence. Giving away your warhorse to the first beggar you meet is unreasonable, and in fact dangerous if the animal is in any way tempermental. (Most warhorses are not known to be placid nags...)

If you'd like, you could also add "detrimental" to the "obviously harmful act." In that way, giving away your treasured heirloom, or spellbook, or +1 sword, to the nearest street urchin becomes an untenable request. It also changes the spell from an easy "gimmie, gimmie!" into a strategic spell, where creative thinking shines but still piecemeals the quest.

So instead of receiving the wizard's spellbook outright, you ask him to leave his satchel bag unsecured "so as to easily access items while in the tavern." The target would still keep safe their bag, such as between their feet, or next to their chair within sight, but one extra, seemingly harmless, bit moves things closer to the Suggestor's ideal. (I use wizard spellbook example here for good reason, as no sane wizard player would consider losing their spellbook/s not an "obviously harmful act." Tit for tat explains things faster.)

Sadly, there's quite a few spells that I'd edit in 5e, as they are questionably or poorly worded. Find Familiar and Find Steed are two that immediately pop into my mind — a lot of power projection in those two. Brutal for new GMs. You're really going to have to set a baseline for your magic dial and go back and re-edit the whole spell list. And sadly, WotC is continuing form and pumping out new spells and feat widgets enthusiastically (slower than d20 glut, but still...).

You are touching upon demographics with your Magic Initiate feat idea. Given that feats are pretty much unavaiable until 4th lvl, or variant human, it does "break" with your "step lightly upon the system" design ethos here. It's one of the reasons I just find it easier to not use 0th lvl anything and start everyone at 1st lvl. Since most people won't risk themselves so much, most demographics won't have people in levels higher than could be counted on one hand.

But that's my demographic solution, and my assessment of where your editing breaks with your design ethos. Just an FYI, as I am sure another player would similarly catch on and point out.

As cool as scrolls are, I do think there's either the danger of a) campaign magic oversaturation, b) price prohibition remains beseiged into rich and powerful enclaves, c) economy dyspepsia. At that point you have to make a setting choice.

Now, if you were to ask me, I think there's quite a bit of mundane stuff, already in PHB, that could work as magical wards. That way magic is not the sole counter to magic, in a strangulated ouroboros circulation. Silvering weapons is a known rule, and there's a bucket of toolkits waiting further elaboration, such as herbalism and poisoner kits, artisan tools for one-shot talismans...

It also creates an interesting localized economy and flavor, if you really try. "Silver sparks & tarnishes when a harmful spell is cast upon you and absorbed; only a blessed silversmith can restore such maligned silver."  "Mistletoe garlands from the Eldathian flower girls ward off the druid's tricks during a waning gibbous!" "Elecampane balm protects you from the wyrds of still water..."

It is extra work, though.

Quote from: Opaopajr;919590Find Familiar and Find Steed are two that immediately pop into my mind — a lot of power projection in those two. Brutal for new GMs.

I can see it with the warlock's beefed up familiars that can turn invisible and require a mini-adventure scouting out everything while the rest of the party twiddles their thumbs, but are you saying regular familiars and and paladin steeds are an issue? That's news to me. Could you elaborate?

Quote from: Opaopajr;919590Just an FYI, as I am sure another player would similarly catch on and point out.

Eh, I was just establishing that the setting has a precedent for magic dabbling. The standard 5e NPCs disregard all kinds of rules and have builds and abilities inaccessible to players, so I was working with the world rather than the rules.

It's not an animal, it's a celestial, fae, or fiend in animal form. It's intelligent to understand your language, and you can communicate to it telepathically up to one mile (no materials seem to bar this telepathy). It can be dismissed as an action. It fights like a seemless unit with you, in and out of combat. And when you ride it, solo spells cast upon yourself can be duplicated upon your steed. It doesn't go away until defeated or dismissed, either, no concentration necessary.

That's crazy amounts of power. And for a 2nd lvl spell. And that's before we get into the permissiveness of any GM granting another type of mount.

Want to explore two areas at once, and be relatively combat competent at both? Wanna twin a solo buff spell and double team? Wanna trick someone into riding your steed "safely back home?" Want your steed to wholly ignore Animal Handling skill and other tricks to coax your mount away? It is not an animal, further has language level intelligence, and is bonded loyalty to you...

And at most you are out 10 minutes and a spell slot. There's not even a material component to it. It's Summon Improved Hireling/Mount, and that's before GM flubs like giving you a higher CR mount, just because naivete. It's a very strong spell...

(As for the 5e NPCs in the DMG/MM, they are not too far off from the PC rules. The big one is the HP equations. But overall, if you extrapolate HD and caster level values, they are not that far off from an equivalent PC. It was one of the fascinating discoveries I made when trying to 5e MtG cards. There's a surprising amount of consistency even though it is not as formulaic as 3e NPC rules.

However, it is also unimportant as 5e NPCs are now decoupled from stricter leveled NPC generation standards like 3e/4e.)

Can you explain why you'd want balanced classes?

It was like discovering my fellow players were Deep Ones when they said they wanted it.

Quote from: CTPhipps;919639Can you explain why you'd want balanced classes?

Sure.
Please picture a fighter player and a rogue player texting on the couch while the two casters spend ages using their enormous bag of tricks to invalidate yet another adventure before the fighting even starts.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919642Sure.
Please picture a fighter player and a rogue player texting on the couch while the two casters spend ages using their enormous bag of tricks to invalidate yet another adventure before the fighting even starts.

Then dont let the casters do that. Theres plenty of brakes on the wheel if you have the guts to apply them. Otherwise you let the cart carreen out of control. Its not the games fault.

Heres some options from the DMG. Restricting some class paths to certain races. Like only gnomes can be Illusionist Wizards, or able to use illusion class spells at all, and so on.

Or... drumroll please... Removing paths or removing whole classes, spells, etc.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;919642Sure.
Please picture a fighter player and a rogue player texting on the couch while the two casters spend ages using their enormous bag of tricks to invalidate yet another adventure before the fighting even starts.

Has this scenario actually happened to you before?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;919700Has this scenario actually happened to you before?

For me, yes?

I've also had scenarios in which the Fighter the Rogue are playing with handheld consoles because they don't get to do anything, while the Cleric and Wizard finish a fight that was designed for a party of six in two spells.  And it wasn't because the Cleric or Wizard players were dicks, it just that they rolled initiative higher than anyone else, and the fight was over.

Balance means that everyone gets to do something useful.  But because D&D has ALWAYS been designed around it's magic system and items, it never works out that way. At least not without massive house rules.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;919700Has this scenario actually happened to you before?

I can't speak for Shipyard Locked, but I can absolutely see it happening. I'm running a monk now and planning a warlock for after the current party dies/splits up. Just looking at the capabilities of the two characters, it's crazy how much more capable the warlock is. My monk punches things (though most things he's encountered recently laugh at his non-magical attacks), runs fast, is perceptive, and is amazing at wilderness survival (which never gets used since the druid and ranger joined). He can also try to do some battlefield control stuff like knocking enemies prone or stunning them, but those don't even work half the time since the GM usually passes his saves. The warlock I'll run next has consistent ranged damage, is amazing in social situations, can create illusions at will, is super stealthy and can disarm traps and locks, can see through magical darkness (which makes for all kinds of shenanigans with the darkness spell), can teleport around the battlefield, can turn invisible, and he can even fly if he needs to. He'll have an invisible familiar close at hand that can help him with scouting or aid him in combat by distracting his enemies, granting advantage on his first attack each round.

I cant speak for later editions but OD&D, 1E and 2E made it clear that a successful attack on a spellcaster aborted any spell being cast. Add to this the low hit points and bad AC of your typical mage and no decently run campaign should be awash in spellcasters flinging around lightning bolts and fireballs like Rip Taylor does with confetti. Even high level wizards can't keep up magical defenses all the time, so a band of lowly brigands armed with missile weapons could take one down in short order if they acted intelligently.

Obviously this applies to NPC magic-users as well as PC ones.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;919705For me, yes?

I've also had scenarios in which the Fighter the Rogue are playing with handheld consoles because they don't get to do anything, while the Cleric and Wizard finish a fight that was designed for a party of six in two spells.  And it wasn't because the Cleric or Wizard players were dicks, it just that they rolled initiative higher than anyone else, and the fight was over.

Balance means that everyone gets to do something useful.  But because D&D has ALWAYS been designed around it's magic system and items, it never works out that way. At least not without massive house rules.

Sure, and I can hypothetically see that kind of stuff happening. I've never had it happen to me in decades of playing the various editions though, and I'm wondering what the difference may be.

This is actually something I think about quite often. However, I just came here to say I came to essentially the same place as Estar & just look at what he said & know that it is Wisdom.

Other people on here have been helpful, but I caution you against using (game) mechanical tricks, like antimagic fetishes. I think the players can/will easily abuse them too.

If you want to play 5e and you're having real caster problems, then consider giving casters only half XP. This will slow down their leveling so they are half the level of the Fighters and Rogues. It would make high level casters rare as PCs and NPCs, thus lowering their effect on the world.

I have also seen this "non-caster player tune out" in 3e and 5e. It was an issue during the 5e playtests too with the non-caster players getting fed up with the power disparity. Probably one of the reasons I can easily fill a 0e and 4e table with players.

If I play 3e or 5e, I only play some caster class. Otherwise, I'm often bored being only semi-relevant in play, especially because Adventurer's League, Living Forgotten Realms, and Pathfinder Society events are mostly just combats between railroad stops.

BTW, if you want to see an OSR game with great caster balance, check out Mazes & Minotaurs.
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/

So over editions weve cone from "Everyone work to keep the wizard alive so he can blast stuff for us when hes powerful" to "Wah wah the mean ol wizard gets powerful!"