Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalAs far as the fantasy genre is concerned, Tolkien is Kim Il-Sung.  His books are aged things forged in a bygone era and representative of the conservative and border-line racist attitudes of the time Tolkien was writing in.

Elves are a symbol of the fact that the fantasy genre hasn't moved since the 1950's.

Dude, chill out. The same can be said of any fantasy author before these days. And by the way, is a very absurd thing to say.

I said before, blame the hacks, not the genius they try to imitate. Blame the imitators of Howard, not REH. Blame the imitators of Tolkien, not Tolkien.

Quote from: BalbinusEh, I see your point, the problem isn't Tolkein but rather those who were too unimaginative to do anything but copy him.

Can I blame DnD?  I think that is actually quite a big factor in the growth of fat fantasy oddly enough.

I blame D&D for much of that. D&D is at its beginning a hack of Tolkienesque fantasy made game. I'm cool with that. I love it. But whenever I read 99% of any fat fantasy book, I feel that the author is telling me about his last D&D game (Robert Jordan, I'm looking at YOU!). I hate that. If you want to tell me about your game, then motherfucking do so. Don't try to hide it as a novel, thinking that 900 pages of ill-written crap are going to deceive us.

In any case, I stand by my point: Judgement Day is here. I'm going to make the bunker ready.

Quote from: ImperatorD&D is at its beginning a hack of Tolkienesque fantasy made game.

Because it has dwarves, elves and Hobbits(tm)? Window dressing, especially considering that most of the tolkien-esque fantasy authors throw out those races (and often introduce them again, cheaply disguised).

D&D (in its first revisions) takes much more from Vance and Anderson than Tolkien. The "destiny of the chosen one"-trilogy concept is much more annoying than any superficial fantasy elements made popular by gaming...

Besides, Tolkien elves are tall and original D&D elves were short. That's plenty of proof that they aren't just a hack.

The idea that any one, two, or three authors are the inspiration for D&D is an oversimplification.  The magic spells come from the bible just as much as from Vance.  Many of the creatures can be found in fairy tales, greek mythology, and old monster movies.  The monk is the child of chop sockey films.  Magic carpets and djinni rings are from the Arabian Nights.  The paladin looks Arthurian to me.  Etc, etc, etc.

Quote from: jrientsYeah.  I can enjoy a Conan story and still like the fact that my house has running water.

Agreed. I don't even think that REH felt that barbarism was superior to civilization. My reading of Conan leaves me thinking that he viewed Barbarism as the default condtion of mankind, destined to sweep away civilization again and again during times of decadance. Default is not the same as superior.

D&D to blame for fat fantasy? I think so, in part. But I think it's also somehow tied to the 1960's and romantic neopaganism/Celtophilia--the same stuff that's behind RenFaires and the SCA. Where did that all come from?

Quote from: Elliot WilenD&D to blame for fat fantasy? I think so, in part. But I think it's also somehow tied to the 1960's and romantic neopaganism/Celtophilia--the same stuff that's behind RenFaires and the SCA. Where did that all come from?

It's just that stock human urge to create some bygone age where things were simpler/better/etc.  

I've heard more than a few SCA/RPG nerd say crap like "I wish I lived in the Middle Ages."

No you don't.  The MA sucked.  If I lived in the middle ages, I'd be a fucking dead man, and so would you.  

Provided I even lived past childbirth, I'd be looking forward to a life of endless toil, eating rotting food of plates made of stale bread, and probably eventually dying of plague of some sort.  I would have no rights as a human being, and my very life would be effectively forfeit.  But hey, it could be worse, I could be a woman.

But about the only RPG I can think of that presents an appropriately unpleasant view of the medieval era is WFRP.

The rest is all utter whitewash.  Romanticized sillyness with no real connection to the reality of the times.  Because it's not about the reality, it's about the fantasy.  About some halycon age when men were REAL men, women were REAL women, and small furry blue creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small furry blue creatures from Alpha Centauri.

EDIT:  I do not mean, by any means, to suggest there's anything wrong with fantasy.  I love D&D and Pendragon alike, and I still need to really give a good read to Warhammer Fantasy.  I just understand the difference between fantasy and reality a bit better than I think some more deluded gamers do.

Miniver Cheevy, child of scorn,
Grew lean while he assailed the seasons
He wept that he was ever born,
   And he had reasons.

Miniver loved the days of old
   When swords were bright and steeds were prancing;
The vision of a warrior bold
   Would send him dancing.

Miniver sighed for what was not,
   And dreamed, and rested from his labors;
He dreamed of Thebes and Camelot,
   And Priam's neighbors.

Miniver mourned the ripe renown
   That made so many a name so fragrant;
He mourned Romance, now on the town,
   And Art, a vagrant.

Miniver loved the Medici,
   Albeit he had never seen one;
He would have sinned incessantly
   Could he have been one.

Miniver cursed the commonplace
   And eyed a khaki suit with loathing:
He missed the medieval grace
   Of iron clothing.

Miniver scorned the gold he sought,
   But sore annoyed was he without it;
Miniver thought, and thought, and thought,
   And thought about it.

Miniver Cheevy, born too late,
   Scratched his head and kept on thinking;
Miniver coughed, and called it fate,
   And kept on drinking.

        - Edwin Arlington Robinson

I love that poem.  The SCA has a lot of Cheevys, methinks.  Gamers do, too.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstI love that poem.  The SCA has a lot of Cheevys, methinks.  Gamers do, too.

I have two theories, that might be complimentary or not:

1) All hobbies, particularly among those participants who have been in it for a long time, have Cheevys.

2) People tend to become Cheevy-esque around their 30th birthday.

In almost all of the hobbies that I've been enough of a participant in to notice such things, I've encountered Cheevy types, who lament long and often about how things were better in the past, before Dreadful Development X occurred.  The only hobby that I've not encountered this in is birding.  I guess tromping around in the woods, staring at flying critters just doesn't change enough to have people whinging for the good ol' days.  I've heard a few laments about not seeing as much of a particular species as one might have in the past, but I think that's a much different complaint.

So, gaming isn't unique in this regard, or even the worst.  I've probably encountered this attitude the most among music buffs.  And that particular incarnation of the Cheevy Syndrome is often, perhaps damn near always, coupled with my second theory.  "Music isn't as good as it was when I was younger!  Everything sucks now!  It's all the same!"

All of which is ridiculously myopic, and wearing the ol' rose tints as well.  But I don't want to disgress too much, since I'm having trouble as it is bringing this back to the original point of the thread.

Which was what?  Oh yeah, that some games have this luddite, anti-Western Civ attitude.  Umm, yeah, I guess some do.  Handled well, I think such a theme/subtext/whatever-term-you-prefer could make for an interesting game, even if I don't personally share much of those beliefs.  Hey, maybe interesting because I don't share those beliefs.

*shrugs*

Quote from: GrimGent(Where did that reference to vaccinations come from, by the way? It sounds like a Techie conspiracy from the days of 1e. Or Pentex, for that matter, although they are from a different game.)

1st ed Progenitor splatbook, though it's such a cool idea they might have used it in Revised.  Mass vaccinations programs are part of a Technocratic conspiracy to turn the Sleepers against the natural world by creating allegies such as hayfever.  Given that this is a real world "theory" about the rise in allegies over the past thirty years and the proven benefits of mass vaccination programmes, this is borderline irresponsible

Not that I wouldn't have used it if I'd thought of it

Quote from: ImperatorDude, chill out. The same can be said of any fantasy author before these days. And by the way, is a very absurd thing to say.

I said before, blame the hacks, not the genius they try to imitate. Blame the imitators of Howard, not REH. Blame the imitators of Tolkien, not Tolkien.

  I don't actually blame Tolkien in the least, I blame fantasy fans for allowing their genre to whither on the vine by systematically buying the same book over and over again.  Tolkien's long in the ground, it's not his fault that fantasy fans want unchallenging comfort reading.

  I don't see how what I said was absurd.  The Lord of the Rings is all about the forces of good fighting to preserve the status quo.  How is that not social conservatism?  As for the attitudes to different races, anyone who isn't an Aryan type is evil and people are more or less trustworthy based upon what race they come from.  Not in and of itself racist (after all the Grey company's all about multiculturalism) but harshly reflective of attitudes to race in the middle decades of the century.

  What bothers me isn't that these attitudes existed, it's that they're still present in contemporary fantasy literature, simply because people aren't thinking about what they write.  It's also why I think Terry Pratchett's one of the most dangerous men working in contemporary fantasy, if you look past the jokes you'll find a creative agenda that's nothing short of revolutionary.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIt's also why I think Terry Pratchett's one of the most dangerous men working in contemporary fantasy, if you look past the jokes you'll find a creative agenda that's nothing short of revolutionary.

I was going to do a "FIFY" here, but couldn't find a form of words that expressed what I wanted to say and didn't mangle your grammar

Mr. Pratchett is one of the most dangerously revolutionary writers working today, full stop.

That said, Jim Wallis might be more dangerous - we'll know more after the US midterms

Do you mean Jim Wallis the progressive christian writer?