$500 dollars is a couple paychecks at a minimum wage job in my neck of the woods.  That's far from "setting the bar too high".  You spend that much even on Lulu setting up a hardback project or getting your book in the major distribution channels.  And they're dirt cheap.

D6 is all WEG has.  They can't afford to give away their only product just to appease some whiny RPG fan who wants free stuff.  It's their livelihood, and you're expecting them to just give it away for nothing?

FWIW a Traveller license is $1000 but that doesn't seem to have stopped companies from getting them even now.

Quote from: J ArcaneD6 is all WEG has.  They can't afford to give away their only product just to appease some whiny RPG fan who wants free stuff.  It's their livelihood, and you're expecting them to just give it away for nothing?

Your not listening though.  I didn't say anything about giving it away for free, more to the point cutting the price in half.

Yes, D6 is all they have and that's their fault.  They should be smart and pick up other games that are non-d6 and publish them to diversify what they sell and get more people buying their products.

And that is a strategic mistake that they made and they got themselves into.

You can say it's not a whole lot of money but when you look at it not a lot of people are grabbing the license for D6.  

Is price the issue?  Who knows?  But lets face it, D6 is still at the bottom of the pack and WEG isn't doing much to change that

With every passing breath, you make it more abundantly clear you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.  In fact, the complete lack of perspective on your part is really sort of pathetic, as is the amount you are apparently willing to demand from a company that basically amounts to one guy who poured his life savings into trying to rescue a company he loved from a miserable death as nothing more than a folder in a drawer locked in a supply closet somewhere.

But that's OK.  I can make peace with that, because, as I occasionally have the presence of mind to remind myself of, and as you so abundantly made clear in your own post #11, your rambling sense of entitlement, like that of so many dorks like you who inflict the web, has absolutely no effect on the real world.

I just hope that your correspondence didn't serve to at all annoy the good folk there who have put so much effort into trying to ensure that at least D6 manages to keep afloat.

Tah, have a nice day, you insufferably petulant little manchild.

Quote from: J ArcaneWith every passing breath, you make it more abundantly clear you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

That's your opinion and you are welcome to it.  But you are wrong

Quote from: J ArcaneIn fact, the complete lack of perspective on your part is really sort of pathetic, as is the amount you are apparently willing to demand from a company that basically amounts to one guy who poured his life savings into trying to rescue a company he loved from a miserable death as nothing more than a folder in a drawer locked in a supply closet somewhere.

I am not demanding anything.  He can continue to do what he is doing and D6 will stay at the bottom of the pile.  

I like D6 and I hate to see it mishandled that's all

Quote from: J ArcaneBut that's OK.  I can make peace with that, because, as I occasionally have the presence of mind to remind myself of, and as you so abundantly made clear in your own post #11, your rambling sense of entitlement, like that of so many dorks like you who inflict the web, has absolutely no effect on the real world.

Again I don't have any sense of entitlement.  I am not sure where you get that idea, and maybe you are just making it up.  I am just posting my observations.

Quote from: J ArcaneI just hope that your correspondence didn't serve to at all annoy the good folk there who have put so much effort into trying to ensure that at least D6 manages to keep afloat.

I hope not either.  I don't want to annoy them I am just posting my observations as I said.   I go into my FLGS, see the same D6 books sitting there month after month and am sad to see that

Quote from: J ArcaneTah, have a nice day, you insufferably petulant little manchild.

I see, the first sign that you have nothing left of value to say.  You have to resort to childish insults.

Well, it depends on what you think licensing products is for.

If you think that licensing some product is so that an enthusiastic fan can write material for it, then $500 is definitely way too much.

But if you think that licensing some product is so that you can start a business, then $500 is small bikkies, really. If you look into starting any small business - something to make a decent living from - you're looking at $50,000 or more total investment. Here in Melbourne the various equipment and permits just for a hot dog stand are going to run you about $5,000, and you're not going to experience great prosperity out of that.

If you just want to write up material for your favourite game system and publish it for free, nowadays no-one's going to stop you, so long as you don't copy and paste large chunks of their books. But if you want to write stuff and sell it, then for that you have to pay.

The real obstacle to people writing material for Game System X is not licensing, it's finishing writing a whole book to publishable state. That's not an easy thing to do - writing a few words is not hard, research isn't hard, but motivating yourself to draft and edit and shop around and tidy up then rewrite and reorganise and show around and tidy up again some piece of writing - that's hard. It takes organisation and willpower. I know, I did it - did it middling, but not great.

Suppose that you're a poverty-stricken but brilliant and hardworking writer. I think you can be pretty sure that if you present a basically-complete and publishable manuscript, with lots of interesting ideas and obviously fun to play, and it just happens to use Game System X - they're not going to turn you away just because you don't have the $500 or $1,000 or whatever. They'll work something out.

Whereas if you are wealthy but can't string a readable and interesting sentence together to save your life, they will probably tell you and your chequebook to go away.

If you can write - really write, not just blather on internet forums like the rest of us - they'll figure something out with you. That licensing fee is just to put off the people who aren't serious.

It's all about love of the hobby, and money. If your writing is so brilliant that it'll boost the hobby, and make them lots of money, they'll work out some arrangement with you.

Quote from: JimBobOzIf you can write - really write, not just blather on internet forums like the rest of us - they'll figure something out with you. That licensing fee is just to put off the people who aren't serious.

It's all about love of the hobby, and money. If your writing is so brilliant that it'll boost the hobby, and make them lots of money, they'll work out some arrangement with you.

Which is pretty much what they did with Bill Coffin.

QuoteWriting -- Bill coffin is kind enough to be working on royalty for this project. Though he'll ultimately be getting better royalties than most would, he's graciously been willing to accept a degree a risk that most people would be less willing to do.

from here-

http://www.westendgames.com/forum/upload/showthread.php?s=&postid=24117#post24117

Quote from: Blue DevilI really do not see why the D6 books could not be combined in one and then have the information for various genres.

You get a big chunk of each book that has the same rules and then a small amount of other information.

It is very annoying and really unnessacary

I agree, but I don't think you'll see them doing another generic system book again anytime soon.  The new books will be focused on specific settings.

Quote from: Blue DevilThey need to get the system out there, being used by people so that more people can get to know the system.

I go into my FLGS's and the D6 books just sit there selling.  They aren't working to really get the word out.

The word is out there- the D6 books are kinda lame and take too much work to actually use.   There's just no way they compete against Savage Worlds, GURPS, HERO, True20, D20 Modern, Unisystem, HARP, etc., etc.

Bill Coffin is an amazing writer.  His Palladium stuff is fantastic.  I'll be excited to see what he can do with d6.

Quote from: J ArcaneWith every passing breath, you make it more abundantly clear you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.  

I'm glad somebody else stepped up and said this.

Seriously.

Quote from: Casey777FWIW a Traveller license is $1000 but that doesn't seem to have stopped companies from getting them even now.

Where did you get that figure from?    Do you have a link for this anywhere?

Skarka, I have an email address for Marc Miller if you just want to ask him yourself.

(That probably looks like name-dropping, but he's not that hard to track down.  Especially if you're a Trav fan living within an hour of Bloomington, Illinois.)

Hmm, this thread seems to be more about 'how West End Games screwed up' as opposed to the premise the thread title implies.

However, responding to the title, yes, it's very annoying when companies do stupid things, and even moreso when they learn nothing and CONTINUE to do the same stupid things.

One of the boneheaded things RPG companies still try to do is make money by licensing the game system. It's rarely profitable (the income covering the cost of brand approvals and the like), and it limits the size of the business. The programming language market is extremely similar, and the companies that tried to 'sell' the rights to use a language are far smaller (or out of business entirely) than those that used a freely available one. More money can made based on how well a product UTILIZES a language than by selling the language itself, it's just not apparent in a market this small.

But game companies really don't license rules (as they would need to be protected by patents), they license BRANDS. If all you're after is the rules, then just implement a slightly modified version in your game. This is done ALL THE TIME.

There are very few valuable brands in the RPG market (such as D&D), and many of those high value brands are being devalued by the actions of their owners (such as Earthdawn and Traveller). I like WEG, but for the life of me I can't see how the 'D6' brand is worth anything, let alone $500.00. And if my D6 product becomes successful, then I have not only paid for a brand, but I've increased its value for the owner.

Doesn't make financial sense.

Remember back when there were all these game magazines, and they covered all kinds of different RPGs? Not anymore. In fact, such magazines are probably impossible at this point because too many companies now have the ability to request a licensing fee for the use of their 'system'. It doesn't even matter if they never intend to ask for that fee, the mere possibility will stop a business from investing in such a project.

I think all this has led to a growing balkanization of the RPG industry, but it's hard to tell as it's always been a bit tribal.

My favorite game company did so many stupid things that it no longer exists. :deflated: