Quote from: Seanchai;375379I'm not talking about houserules. I'm talking about systems such as listening at doors - basically a perception check - that has different modifiers based on the attributes of the PC making the check.

Seanchai

Then we will have to include systems like 'movement' and 'casting spells' under the rubric of 'skills'.

Hear Noise is not "basically a perception check".  And it is available to only class.  Your argument is complete bullshit at this point.

Quote from: StormBringer;375408Then we will have to include systems like 'movement' and 'casting spells' under the rubric of 'skills'.

Hear Noise is not "basically a perception check".  And it is available to only class.  Your argument is complete bullshit at this point.

You mean like Seanchai's arguements about falling on grenades?

C'mon SB, you know that this is just pattern behavior for Seanchai.

Quote from: jeff37923;375411You mean like Seanchai's arguements about falling on grenades?

C'mon SB, you know that this is just pattern behavior for Seanchai.

Oh, yeah, an actor in utterly bad faith in every conversation.  I feel less the need to point out every little deficit these days, instead just calling the bullshit as a whole.

That's progress, right?  Aren't you proud of me?  

Quote from: StormBringer;375414Oh, yeah, an actor in utterly bad faith in every conversation.  I feel less the need to point out every little deficit these days, instead just calling the bullshit as a whole.

That's progress, right?  Aren't you proud of me?  

Yes, I am proud of you. You get a gold star for the day.

Quote from: jeff37923;375416Yes, I am proud of you. You get a gold star for the day.

Mom will be so happy!

Quote from: Seanchai;375379I'm not talking about houserules. I'm talking about systems such as listening at doors - basically a perception check - that has different modifiers based on the attributes of the PC making the check.

Seanchai

Except not really a perception check because it's very specific, which is why it's called "listening at doors", not "perception", and only thieves could do it, not everybody. So, not really like a "perception" check as WotC designed it at all, not even basically really.

Quote from: Sigmund;375425Except not really a perception check because it's very specific...

Hence my use of the word "akin" when describing it.

However, what's a skill system? It's a subsystem of a game in which assigns a mostly static modifier to the resolution of some specific task. Although spotting secrets doors and listening at doors aren't labeled in the rules as skills, they are a rudimentary de facto skill system.

Quote from: Sigmund;375425...and only thieves could do it, not everybody.

I'm not referring to the thief's 1e skill system. I'm referring to page 60 of the 1e DMG. If you believe only thieves could listen at doors, perhaps you should re-read the rules at some point before arguing about what's not in them.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;375426However, what's a skill system? It's a subsystem of a game in which assigns a mostly static modifier to the resolution of some specific task. Although spotting secrets doors and listening at doors aren't labeled in the rules as skills, they are a rudimentary de facto skill system.

No, they aren't.  This is bullshit.  It's the tactic of defining something so broadly as to make the definition meaningless, so anything can be included.  Ex falso quodlibet.

Quote from: Seanchai;375426However, what's a skill system? It's a subsystem of a game in which assigns a mostly static modifier to the resolution of some specific task. Although spotting secrets doors and listening at doors aren't labeled in the rules as skills, they are a rudimentary de facto skill system.

That definition looks to me like most players I know would find it inadequate.  If you tell someone your game has a skill system, I think they are going to expect something more on their character sheet than "Listen at Door 1 in 6".  And during chargen they'll probably want to select the skills they are good at and later they will probably want to train to improve them.  What you have identified looks more to me like a mechanic that can be folded into a skill system, the same way some games fold combat stats into their skill system.

Quote from: Seanchai;375426Hence my use of the word "akin" when describing it.

However, what's a skill system? It's a subsystem of a game in which assigns a mostly static modifier to the resolution of some specific task. Although spotting secrets doors and listening at doors aren't labeled in the rules as skills, they are a rudimentary de facto skill system.

And yet they're not used the same way at all. Having the Dm describe a room and then telling the DM where you want your character to search is also a "de facto" skill system, and apparently the one RandallS prefers. The point is, you tried to say that 1e includes a WotC style skill system and it doesn't.

QuoteI'm not referring to the thief's 1e skill system. I'm referring to page 60 of the 1e DMG. If you believe only thieves could listen at doors, perhaps you should re-read the rules at some point before arguing about what's not in them.

Seanchai

I didn't say nobody could listen at doors. I thought we were discussing skills, so I was referring to the thief skill "Listening at Doors". However, regardless of whether all classes could actually use the mechanic of pressing their imaginary ears at imaginary doors in order to try to hear imaginary sounds, the listen at doors mechanic still doesn't equal or even approximate the WotC Perception skill. 1e D&D is a game, so yes, there are mechanics for things in it. What you said, as I've pointed out, was that 1e D&D contained a WotC style skill system, in direct contradiction to RandallS telling you what older editions do not contain that WotC editions do. I have pointed out that 1e D&D does not, in fact, contain a WotC style skill system, and that for many of the skills WotC included, older editions left up to player/DM interaction or houserules. It's as simple as that. You can keep trying to change the argument into something it's not and you'll still be wrong. You've already thoroughly demonstrated how Perception isn't present in 1e D&D, and that even it's precursor is much, much more specific and limited, and uses an entirely different mechanic anyway. Got any more?

Quote from: Seanchai;375426However, what's a skill system? It's a subsystem of a game in which assigns a mostly static modifier to the resolution of some specific task. Although spotting secrets doors and listening at doors aren't labeled in the rules as skills, they are a rudimentary de facto skill system.

Quote from: Seanchai;375426However, what's a skill system? It's a subsystem of a game in which assigns a mostly static modifier to the resolution of some specific task. Although spotting secrets doors and listening at doors aren't labeled in the rules as skills, they are a rudimentary de facto skill system.

If this is what a skill system is then even OD&D has a skill system in the form of the roll to hit.  Absurd.

Quote from: StormBringer;375446This is bullshit.  It's the tactic of defining something so broadly as to make the definition meaningless, so anything can be included.  Ex falso quodlibet.

Quote from: jrients;375448That definition looks to me like most players I know would find it inadequate. . . . What you have identified looks more to me like a mechanic that can be folded into a skill system, the same way some games fold combat stats into their skill system.

Quote from: 837204563;375508Absurd.

One hears such sounds, and what can one say but, "Seanchai."



With apologies to Peter Shaffer and Tom Hulce.

Quote from: The Shaman;375542One hears such sounds, and what can one say but, "Seanchai."



With apologies to Peter Shaffer and Tom Hulce.

:teehee:

Quote from: 837204563;375508If this is what a skill system is then even OD&D has a skill system in the form of the roll to hit.

How would you define a skill system?

Seanchai