Quote from: two_fishes;372123Remind me again why clerics were prohibited from using edged weapons in earlier editions.

If I recall correctly, and it has been twenty-five plus years, it had something to do with clerics not shedding blood via piercing or slashing weapons. It was a "spiritual issue." Crushing someone's bones was supposedly alright.

Quote from: PaladinCA;372147I figured that you would probably have to burn a feat. But if it can be done by DDI, then I couldn't figure out how to do it. There were no feats on DDI that had anything to do with equipping a shield. Weapons? Yes. Shields? I didn't see it. So how do you do it? What feat is it? Do you have to multiclass?

Oh, whoops -- didn't realize you were seriously puzzled, or I would have answered that already. You want Shield Proficiency (Light). If you're looking for it in the Character Builder, it's under Armor Proficiency, which is in fact confusing. I always have trouble finding it myself.

FWIW, I don't think it'd screw anything up if you gave clerics the feat as a freebie.

Quote from: two_fishes;372132It's true, but the point is there are odd game-balance limits in all the versions of D&D. I'm aware there are valid reasons for disliking 4e but these particular complaints strike me as pretty trivial. Crossbows do less damage than longbows, clerics need a feat to use shields. Like I posted before. Meh. Big deal

Yes. It is fairly trivial. But it is still annoying enough to bitch about it. And I still can't find in DDI how the hell you burn a feat to pick up the use of shields.

Quote from: Thanlis;372149Oh, whoops -- didn't realize you were seriously puzzled, or I would have answered that already. You want Shield Proficiency (Light). If you're looking for it in the Character Builder, it's under Armor Proficiency, which is in fact confusing. I always have trouble finding it myself.

FWIW, I don't think it'd screw anything up if you gave clerics the feat as a freebie.

I thought I had looked under that. I must have missed it.

I'm not the DM of the game I'm playing in, so I suppose I will just have to burn the feat for shield use. I'm still going to bitch about it.

Quote from: PaladinCA;372151I'm not the DM of the game I'm playing in, so I suppose I will just have to burn the feat for shield use. I'm still going to bitch about it.

Heh!

My cleric is picking up Battle Chaplain at level 11 as his paragon path because of the shield proficiency. No lie.

Quote from: Fifth Element;372141I suspect that worrying about the relative damage potential of longbows versus crossbows would be too nitpicky for my eight-year-old.

When I wrote my post, I actually thought of a silly jab an 4venger could throw at it... and this is it! You win a cookie, Iain.

FYI, What a dad wants out of a game may be different than what the kid wants out of it. If you really want the best out of your game, cattering to both inclinations (which, funnily enough, aren't automatically one and the same), is the right way to go. In case you didn't know.

Quote from: PaladinCA;372147Crybaby? Really? That's the best a self-identified prick can come up with?

I figured that you would probably have to burn a feat. But if it can be done by DDI, then I couldn't figure out how to do it. There were no feats on DDI that had anything to do with equipping a shield. Weapons? Yes. Shields? I didn't see it. So how do you do it? What feat is it? Do you have to multiclass?

There is a difference between bitching and crying. When you cry, you stop playing a stupid game for making such a lame design decision. When you are just bitching, you keep playing the game but feel that you have the right to complain about this aspect or that. But whatever... I'm pretty sure that 4e has zero flaws in your mind.

Well I had several more entertaining profanities at my disposal but I was pressed for time. I'll make it up to ya next time. And the feat is under "shield proficiency". It has a tag all it's own. You'll have to take "light shields" first then you can move up to "heavy shields". It does have a prereq. of Str 13 so perhaps that is your malfunction. Well, certainly not your only malfunction...

No 4e is not perfect and I'll be damned if you can show anywhere on this site where I proclaim that. I just thought you sounded like a petulant 4 year old spouting fallicies because you weren't intelligent enough to do the research necessary to complete the character you wanted. And you basically still sound like a petulant 4 year old wailing to the wind that you can't have your way, when all you had to do was ask someone, somewhere for help. But no, you had to pitch a fit like a toddler instead. So now you have your answer you simpering twit. Go make your character and shut up.

Quote from: David Johansen;372056I've been thinking of setting up a campaign for my sons again and decided that some concepts in Castles and Crusades are just a little too, nit picky for an eight year old.  So, anyhow, the last few times I've run C&C with the kids I found myself thinking daily powers and what not would actually be easier for them to manage and they'd enjoy shouting stupid power names out when they attack.

I was all set to pick up the Monster Manual and everything.  So I got out the Player's Handbook and started looking through it.  I still don't think it's much like D&D but there's a game in there.  And there it is, crossbows do less damage than longbows aren't any easier to hit with.

I think I'll burn the fucking book...

That sure seems like a big reaction to a minor issue.  No game will be your perfect representation of how things should work.  You will always have to tweak a few things here and there, particularly if your issues go down to the level of a point of damage for two different but similar weapons.

For what it is worth, I believe your issue is dealt with by the rules, by a method you might not expect by just glancing through the rules.  I think this is one of those where the specific powers will do different things depending on whether it is a bow or a crossbow.  A point or two of damage to the base weapon is really a small difference, compared to what you can actually do with the weapon using various powers and feats and class abilities and such.

Quote from: Benoist;372159You win a cookie, Iain.

Macaroon, please.

Quote from: Benoist;372159FYI, What a dad wants out of a game may be different than what the kid wants out of it. If you really want the best out of your game, cattering to both inclinations (which, funnily enough, aren't automatically one and the same), is the right way to go. In case you didn't know.

Speaking as a dad, well duh. But if you're planning a game for your son, I think putting aside your own preferences is key. If he doesn't give a flying fuck that crossbows don't deal enough damage but has fun playing, that's a successful game.

Unless, of course, the point is to indoctrinate him into the culture of nerdrage.

Forest for the trees, forest for the trees.

Quote from: IMLegend;372160And you basically still sound like a petulant 4 year old wailing to the wind that you can't have your way, when all you had to do was ask someone, somewhere for help. But no, you had to pitch a fit like a toddler instead. So now you have your answer you simpering twit. Go make your character and shut up.

Now that's better. Much more in line with the level of discourse I've come to expect from the pooflingers that stifle actual discussions on this site.

Some of you take this shit too seriously. I bitched because I thought it was a lame design choice (and because it was fun), not because I thought it was a game breaker or a reason to stop playing this edition of D&D.

But thank you (and others) for pointing out the way to find the right feat selection in DDI.

Quote from: IMLegend;372160And the feat is under "shield proficiency". It has a tag all it's own. You'll have to take "light shields" first then you can move up to "heavy shields". It does have a prereq. of Str 13 so perhaps that is your malfunction.

Actually, this bugged the crap out of me in d20. Multiple proficiencies for armor that made no sense at all: let's take three forms of armor and lump them together by weight instead of function.

I had to house rule them for d20 Modern 'cause it was so idiotic..

Stupid, stupid, stupid. :duh:

Quote from: Fifth Element;372173Speaking as a dad, well duh. But if you're planning a game for your son, I think putting aside your own preferences is key. If he doesn't give a flying fuck that crossbows don't deal enough damage but has fun playing, that's a successful game.

Unless, of course, the point is to indoctrinate him into the culture of nerdrage.

Forest for the trees, forest for the trees.

You say "duh", but then profess that the dad must put aside his own preferences. This is actually a counter-sense. If my statement is so obviously "duh", then both the dad's and the son's preferences matter. Not one, or the other. If you prefer one set of preferences over the other, then you disagree with my statement, and you are actually not abiding by your "duh".

Logic fail.

Further, maybe some dad deems important to actually point out the difference between a bow and a crossbow to his son. Maybe the kid is interested in the middle-ages. Maybe that matters to their relationship. Just because that wouldn't be important to you and/or your son doesn't mean it has to not matter to anyone, ever.

It's not necessarily some "indoctrination" into "nerdrage". Just a different point of view than yours.

But hey, as soon as someone has a different set of assumptions than what 4e thinks is "fun" or "un-fun", s/he's automatically some indoctrinating asshole nerdraging. It's badwrongfun. Right? Right. Nice Onetruewayism.

Quote from: T. Foster;372121Not true in 1E AD&D -- yeah the heavy crossbow has 1 point lower max. damage against man-sized opponents (it actually does 1 point more against Large opponents: 2-7 vs 1-6), but it has the same average damage (1-6 and 2-5 both = 3.5 average), longer range (8/16/24 vs 7/14/21), and equal or better "to hit" adjustment against every AC, so most of the time using a heavy crossbow you're going to have at least a +1 bonus to hit (because of the AC adjustment) and, if the target happens to be between 70-80 or 140-160 yards away, an even bigger bonus compared to a long bow. Of course having 1/4 the ROF (one shot every 2 rounds instead of 2 shots per round) almost certainly outweighs that bonus, but that's a different issue than complaining that the crossbow doesn't do as much damage.

No it isn't. Of course I factored the rate of fire into my assessment, as did everybody.

Also you get limited mileage out of those weapon vs. AC tables for various reasons everyone's hashed out a million billion times.

Quote from: T. Foster;372121"But no one we knew ever used those weapon vs AC adjustments" comes the inevitable response. Well, that's your problem right there.

That's what I keep telling people!