Quote from: CRKrueger;660790It's hard to call something a RPG when the roleplay aspect of it isn't the main focus.  How do you know roleplaying isn't the main focus?  Because a large number of the game's mechanics are OOC metagame for the purpose of providing a board or wargame like tactical challenge.

I think we're in the agree-to-disagree stage about this, but I'm saying again that I don't think the OOC mechanics are inherently central, because there are plenty of wargames with only "in-character" mechanics.  

cf. Single-piece wargames vs. RPGs

Quote from: CRKrueger;660790It's hard to call something a RPG when the roleplay aspect of it isn't the main focus.  How do you know roleplaying isn't the main focus?  Because a large number of the game's mechanics are OOC metagame for the purpose of providing a board or wargame like tactical challenge.

4e is a Tactical RPG as I see it, or a Wargame RPG, or a rpG, however you like to classify it, but it sure doesn't fit the moniker of RPG without pointing out that fundamental element, namely that Roleplay is secondary to gameplay.

I think that 4E dnd has tactical rules that would make a decent wargame.

But when I run 4E the emphasis is on roleplay, not combat.

I ignore a lot of metagamey stuff like 'milestones' (wtf is that crap?) and challengeratings/encounter building (useless to me)

I almost always end up dming pathfinder and 4E because the players like those systems.

I would prefer to do 1E/2E/Lotfp/etc...

I am not a fan of 4E by any stretch, but I do think it is an RPG. Albeit an rpg that borrows heavily from other game mediums, but still an RPG. It is probably one of my least favorite systems though. It has a lot of tactical rules for sure. Many rpgs do as well. I dont think you can simply point to where the bulk of the rules are to say it qualifies or doesnt. Roleplaying is one of those things that requires less mechanical support than combat or magic so you could have an rpg that is 80% combat rules and still be an rpg.  My issue with a game like 4E is many of the mechanics feel like they interfere with my style of roleplaying and my style of understanding what is going on in the setting. However my style isnt the only one out there.

CRKrueger had a question to me about Dungeon World a while earlier that I didn't answer because I got side-tracked after starting a reply.  So picking up from earlier...

Quote from: CRKrueger;660299What rules don't you like?

I had some fun with the mechanics of XP upon failure at first, but it definitely bothered one of the other players in my group a lot - and I am reasonably convinced it is a flaw more than a feature.  

The damage rules are frustrating, given that armor reduces damage but there is no consistent way to boost damage, resulting in too many (IMO) blows that are successful with zero damage.  

Spout Lore is a problem for balancing with giving XP and having appropriate consequences.  

A number of the class options just don't quite fit the flavor I like.  Playing a thief, I find my main ability is poisons, for example.  

Regarding the "out-of-character" choices you get from the Moves...  I think in general these can be made "in-character" if you consider them as a priority list for your character.  i.e. Say there are 4 choices - and I can choose 1 on a 7-9 result, or 3 on a 10+.  I can approach the options as saying what results my character is trying for the most.  This part I'm generally OK with.

Quote from: jhkim;660925I had some fun with the mechanics of XP upon failure at first, but it definitely bothered one of the other players in my group a lot - and I am reasonably convinced it is a flaw more than a feature.

I get what you are saying here, and I am still on the fence about this one too.  So far I have played in about 5 session of DW and my character (Dwarf Cleric) has won almost 3x as much XP as another character (Silverlion's Elf Druid) since we started play.  My character is now 2nd level while the other two characters in the game are still 1st level due to my horrible rolls.  Silverlion, on the other hand, has been rolling rocks while playing and has earned significantly less XP as a result.

Quote from: jhkim;660925The damage rules are frustrating, given that armor reduces damage but there is no consistent way to boost damage, resulting in too many (IMO) blows that are successful with zero damage.

I am still feeling out the combat of this game as well.  It seems that this is a compounding issue because it caused combat to last longer, which in turns gives more opportunity for the partial success range.  This in turn creates more opportunity for characters to take damage and get taken out.

Quote from: jhkim;660925Spout Lore is a problem for balancing with giving XP and having appropriate consequences.

I haven't played enough to make an opinion on this subject.

Quote from: jhkim;660925A number of the class options just don't quite fit the flavor I like.  Playing a thief, I find my main ability is poisons, for example.

I haven't played enough to make an opinion on this subject.

Quote from: jhkim;660925Regarding the "out-of-character" choices you get from the Moves...  I think in general these can be made "in-character" if you consider them as a priority list for your character.  i.e. Say there are 4 choices - and I can choose 1 on a 7-9 result, or 3 on a 10+.  I can approach the options as saying what results my character is trying for the most.  This part I'm generally OK with.

I'm still kind of 50/50 on this subject.  I am a more traditional gamer, but I can still make some options fit with in-character choices and maintain immersion, but some other choices and options are outside of in-character choices for me and do pull me back out of immersion somewhat.