I guess I'm feeling cranky after the family get-together.

http://elevenfootpole.blogspot.com/2009/07/no-roll-to-hit-rationale.html

Why not just tell someone to flip a lightswitch?  It would be about as much fun, and just as much a "meaningful contribution" to a game session under such a setup.

Actually, I think flipping a lightswitch might involve more risk (the bulb might be burned out or the wiring might be faulty, giving you a shock).

The counterpoints to those who don't agree with the argument are amusing, at least.  (And horrors!  People have to wait for others to take their turn before they can roll the dice now...Jesus H Christ, now it's "no fun" to wait a minute or five for your turn?)

Enjoy.

Well, obviously the most fun would be if we all just sat in a circle and gave each-other handjobs.

No downtime, no looking up rules, etc.

I guess people will still have to show up on time and shit like that, though, so gamers probably wouldn't go for it

Crom.

This is a big ol' case of "not understanding how arithmetic works".  Expected value and all that.  If the expected value of rolling to hit and then rolling for damage is the same as just rolling for damage, it's the same situation.

Also, I guess this is a negative side effect of "more shit to do in a turn".  Under Brown Box D&D we can roll over a turn of combat in less than a minute, so if you miss, it's not the end of the fucking world.

On the other hand, there seem to be player who feel that if their character ever fails in anything it attempts, the character is 'ruined'.  To those players, I can only say "Boo fucking hoo".

Haven't we all been guessing what 5E D&D could look like?  

In my thread on 5E here, it was amusing to guess which D&D "sacred cows" could possibly be dropped in a future 5E.

I suppose rolling for initiative individually for each player and taking turns could be another "sacred cow" to be dropped.  One way they could do this is to have something similar to what was done in earlier editions of AD&D or basic set D&D, where the party makes one single roll for initiative as a group.  Combat essentially alternates between the players as a group, and the badguys as a group.

An easier variation of this would be to have the DM saying by decree whether the players' party goes first or not.  If the badguys have heard the players and/or seen them with infravision in advanced (ie. rolling for perception or just passive perception), they can get ready and ambush the players (ie. they go first in combat).  If not, the players can go first and ambush the badguys if they notice the badguys first.

So when the players get their turn as a group, they can tactically run the combat according to however they want.  For example, the controllers first cast a ranged area spell on a group of badguys for "crowd control" and hopefully killing off several of the minions.  Next comes the strikers attacking whatever the controllers didn't finish off.  (Etc ...).

*sigh*

The worst part of all this is? I actually think the guy might be right.

Quote from: Old Geezer;311861Also, I guess this is a negative side effect of "more shit to do in a turn".  Under Brown Box D&D we can roll over a turn of combat in less than a minute, so if you miss, it's not the end of the fucking world.

It's true.

Like in GURPS4e,

• Decide whether to attack, all-out attack (strong), all-out attack (double), all-out attack (determined), all-out defend, move & attack, step, whether to target a body part of your foe, etc
• Roll to hit
• If you hit, foe rolls to dodge/parry
• if foe fails to dodge/parry and you did not target a hit location, roll for hit location
• roll for damage
• check if damage exceeds level X, depending on hit location
• if so, roll to see if injured foe falls over, falls unconscious, or dies

Which is why 5PCs vs 12 gargoyles can take two and a half sessions to resolve.  It can be run quickly by a good GM but... Can be tedious, to say the least.

By the time you find out if your character is alive or not you no longer care.

Quote from: Benoist;311864*sigh*

The worst part of all this is? I actually think the guy might be right.

jesus christ.  what ever happened to a simple book of rules to determine if guys with swords killed shit or not?

where the hell does the need for all this crap come from? call me a rleplayer/simulationist i guess, but the gamist approach to the game sux the big one.

its sorta like spoiling kids. give them what they want, they become little demons.  its not good to give in to whatever makes someone feel good so as to make them want to play dnd.  it'd a sign of desperation to make money and increase the base of gamers by pandering.

just make a game that lets people act out in character fighting shit with swords and magic.  how hard is that?  where the hell does the 4e bullshit fit that mode of gaming?   it doesn't.

if you like it then fine, have fun.  i don't. i'll have fun my way.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;311868its sorta like spoiling kids. give them what they want, they become little demons.  its not good to give in to whatever makes someone feel good so as to make them want to play dnd.  it'd a sign of desperation to make money and increase the base of gamers by pandering.

I can sympathize with this "get off my lawn" sentiment.  

Nevertheless, if this is what the munchkins want and they are willing to pay for such books with "Dungeons and Dragons" on the front cover, there isn't much any of the grognards can do about it.  WotC needs new blood to buy their books, for which many grognards are simply not the target customers anymore.  (ie. 1E/2E AD&D, 3E/3.5E D&D, etc ... grognards).

Despite what I or anybody else thinks about TSR/WotC being the root of all evil, they know exactly where their bread is buttered.  I wouldn't be surprised if the high turnover of designers and writers at WotC, has everything to do with getting rid of people who are stuck in their old ways of thinking.  (ie.  They don't want anymore "fatbeards" on staff).  They want younger "hipsters" who have their pulse on what the younger generation is interested in.

Quote from: ggroy;311869I can sympathize with this "get off my lawn" sentiment.  

Nevertheless, if this is what the munchkins want and they are willing to pay for such books with "Dungeons and Dragons" on the front cover, there isn't much any of the grognards can do about it.  WotC needs new blood to buy their books, for which many grognards are simply not the target customers anymore.  (ie. 1E/2E AD&D, 3E/3.5E D&D, etc ... grognards).

Despite what I or anybody else thinks about TSR/WotC being the root of all evil, they know exactly where there bread is buttered.  I wouldn't be surprised if the high turnover of designers and writers at WotC, has everything to do with getting rid of people who are stuck in their old ways of thinking.  (ie.  They don't want anymore "fatbeards" on staff).  They want younger "hipsters" who have their pulse on what the younger generation is interested in.

yeah.  and that ain't me. i haven't bought anything from them since i bought the 3.0 phb in what, 2000?  so i guess i'm useless to them.

i have bought from other 3pp's though.

Quote from: Joethelawyer;311870yeah.  and that ain't me. i haven't bought anything from them since i bought the 3.0 phb in what, 2000?  so i guess i'm useless to them.

i have bought from other 3pp's though.

I'm sure WotC knows exactly who they should listen to, and who they can safely ignore.  For the most part, they probably ignore most of the chatter of online message boards.  The present management knows exactly what the financial books look like, and probably have their minds made up for the most part.

If 4E D&D turns out to be not so successful in the eyes of their superiors at Hasbro, they'll be fired eventually and a new management team will be put in place to oversee the development of a 5E.

Probably a good indicator of the "beginning of the end" for 4E, is if there is a huge shakeup and purge in the management ranks at WotC.

Did a little sample 4e combat with two of my players tonight, them against 6 minion-level orcs and one mid-level leader type. Thanks to bad rolls to hit from the fighter, the combat lasted longer than it should have - all of 40 minutes. Also, it was a "tie" in that both of them ended up unconscious and the leader orc down to 1 hit point but facing an astral whatsis that the Cleric had summoned. This was the first time they had ever played 4e, so I think that time could be trimmed considerably, especially if we had the full 4-man group together and dingbat would stop rolling 5's all night. Take that for what its worth. No tantrums to report, just lots of aerobic eye-rolling at the crappy luck.

Also, the "one roll to hit, set damage" mechanic is already IN 4e - minions do set damage on hits (5 points in the case of the club-wielding orcs tonight). I can see them expanding that to other monsters or even PCs with little effort.

Quote from: Werekoala;311872Also, the "one roll to hit, set damage" mechanic is already IN 4e - minions do set damage on hits (5 points in the case of the club-wielding orcs tonight). I can see them expanding that to other monsters or even PCs with little effort.

Easiest way to convert damage dice to "set damage":

d4 -> 4 points damage
d6 -> 6 points damage
d8 -> 8 points damage
d10 -> 10 points damage
d12 -> 12 points damage

2d4 +1 -> 9 points damage
4d6 +3 -> 27 points damage

etc ... ad nauseum.

One of the great appeals of T&T: No rolls to hit in Melee. Just skip straight to damage.... And parrying is presumed, so only the winner does "real damage"...

Solves the whole issue of "$%^ I Missed!"...

QuoteRisk runs counter to tactical thinking.

Oi.  IT is at this point that I pretty much give up and start skimming the article instead of reading it too intensely.  The level of fucked up thinking it takes to believe that is beyond my ability to respond rationally.

If the world ever does go to shit, I just hope and pray I don't wind up in a foxhole somewhere in the ruins of ancient Portland with this asshole as my Lt.  

QuoteRisk inhibits learning.

Cor blimey, it's a horror to me to think that there are likely quite a few educators who agree with him, but the notion certainly fills ME with great horror to think that risk assessment apparently should be allowed no place in a "learning" environment.

QuoteMaths is not, normally, fun.

[malibustacey]"Math is hard!"[/malibustacey]  So this is what it's come to, is it?  Not content with ruining education, the author simply gives up on the notion of even utilizing basic learnign skills altogether.

Should it be any wonder to anyone at this point that this worthless git has a monster from Final Fantasy as his user photo?  Because it's exactly the sort of system he's describing.  Just pushing A on the menu to attack and watching the damage numbers tick off.  

What a brainless mook of a man.

Quote from: ggroy;311862Haven't we all been guessing what 5E D&D could look like?  

In my thread on 5E here, it was amusing to guess which D&D "sacred cows" could possibly be dropped in a future 5E.

I suppose rolling for initiative individually for each player and taking turns could be another "sacred cow" to be dropped.  One way they could do this is to have something similar to what was done in earlier editions of AD&D or basic set D&D, where the party makes one single roll for initiative as a group.  Combat essentially alternates between the players as a group, and the badguys as a group.

An easier variation of this would be to have the DM saying by decree whether the players' party goes first or not.  If the badguys have heard the players and/or seen them with infravision in advanced (ie. rolling for perception or just passive perception), they can get ready and ambush the players (ie. they go first in combat).  If not, the players can go first and ambush the badguys if they notice the badguys first.

So when the players get their turn as a group, they can tactically run the combat according to however they want.  For example, the controllers first cast a ranged area spell on a group of badguys for "crowd control" and hopefully killing off several of the minions.  Next comes the strikers attacking whatever the controllers didn't finish off.  (Etc ...).

The problem with having group initiative is that the party can win, and trash the bad guy, or lose, and not have any chance at all to stop him. Also, no one can, "make a fast character," since they have to share their turn anyway.