Quote from: David R;242065I'll check them out. Orrosh and the Mitchell books sound esp interesting. I do have some of the TORG supplements but I don't think I have Orrosh.....which is weird because from your brief description it sounds like something I would like.

Regards,
David R

Well, Orrorsh posits a British Empire that is essentially alone in a world dominated by, well, horrors, as per the name. The history given for the world is interesting, and starts out fairly conventional, but given that it's filled with supernatural stuff after the Gaunt Man gets there, it may not be to your taste.

Quote from: Age of Fable;242021Although it has the disadvantage that it's relatively difficult to turn into a screaming argument about nothing.

Screw you and your anti-dark ages bigotry!

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050My problem with alt-American History stories is that they all either mine the overworked "British-winning-the-Revolutionary-War-and-hanging-Washington-&-Co." or are just excuses for socio-political diatribes containing a lot of heavy-handed contemporary/pop culture references ("...and Paris Hilton really ran in and won the 2008 elections!" Harhar. Not.)

I strongly agree with this, which is why I can't take the whole thing seriously at all.

The type of alt US history I like is the classical. A world with superpowers for example. While that often goes off the rails to too common political diatribes, at least there's examples where it is just fun. Or rather used to be, I hate comics these days...

Quote from: CavScout;241988I bet when you drop N-word jokes, you follow up the stares with, "but a black friend told me it!"

Get over yourself.

Quote from: gleichman;242083I strongly agree with this, which is why I can't take the whole thing seriously at all.

The type of alt US history I like is the classical. A world with superpowers for example. While that often goes off the rails to too common political diatribes, at least there's examples where it is just fun. Or rather used to be, I hate comics these days...

I agree with the G-man here. What I'd like to see is some alt-"all the rest of the self-righteous world that thinks their shit doesn't stink" history. Otherwise, just gimme some stuff like superhero alt-history that can avoid making heavy-handed political rants disguised as fiction.

Quote from: gleichman;242083I strongly agree with this, which is why I can't take the whole thing seriously at all.

The type of alt US history I like is the classical. A world with superpowers for example. While that often goes off the rails to too common political diatribes, at least there's examples where it is just fun. Or rather used to be, I hate comics these days...

Although it wasn't perfect, I thought the JLU series handled this pretty well, really. Both the gov't and the JL had sympathetic positions and Superman worked out to be kind of a creepy bastard, which was pretty cool. I found myself rooting for the "Bad guys" on a couple of occasions.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242067Well, Orrorsh posits a British Empire that is essentially alone in a world dominated by, well, horrors, as per the name. The history given for the world is interesting, and starts out fairly conventional, but given that it's filled with supernatural stuff after the Gaunt Man gets there, it may not be to your taste.

Sounds interesting. I have got nearly all of the TORG setting books - Living Land, Nile Empire, Cyberpapacy, Nippon Tech, Land Below, Space Gods, Tharkold, Delphi Council Worldbook (Core Earth sourcebook), Terra - which like many GURPS sourcebooks I buy even though I don't use the system.  

Regards,
David R

Estar very cool links. Thanks!

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050My problem with alt-American History stories is that they all either mine the overworked "British-winning-the-Revolutionary-War-and-hanging-Washington-&-Co." or are just excuses for socio-political diatribes containing a lot of heavy-handed contemporary/pop culture references ("...and Paris Hilton really ran in and won the 2008 elections!" Harhar. Not.)

I'd like to see more well-thought-out alt-history settings about America that carefully explore how certain events or people have influenced history. There are a lot (relatively speaking) that deal with such things that occur in other times and places and actually seem more like exercises in speculative thinking rather than thinly-veiled political criticism.

One reason that's not too common might be that you've got to look at social forces rather than personalities. Alt histories tend to take a more-or-less subtle Great Man approach - they deal almost entirely with the actions of "Great Men" or else with simplistic versions of states that can be practically personified ("Then France invades Cuba"). By contrast, real history tends to be driven much less by personalities (though of course certain people do affect it) and more by abstract, somewhat dull, economic considerations and political shifts. Because alt histories are a form of entertainment, they are interested in telling an entertaining story, so the dull stuff simply gets dropped as irrelevant.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;242129the dull stuff simply gets dropped as irrelevant.

At last, I understand why I've been dumped so many times. Thanks, Canada!

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;242129One reason that's not too common might be that you've got to look at social forces rather than personalities. Alt histories tend to take a more-or-less subtle Great Man approach - they deal almost entirely with the actions of "Great Men" or else with simplistic versions of states that can be practically personified ("Then France invades Cuba"). By contrast, real history tends to be driven much less by personalities (though of course certain people do affect it) and more by abstract, somewhat dull, economic considerations and political shifts. Because alt histories are a form of entertainment, they are interested in telling an entertaining story, so the dull stuff simply gets dropped as irrelevant.

My history teacher had a saying about US history:  "Americans vote with their pocketbooks".  Historically, Americans re-elect the guy/party who had a good economy in his term, or oust the incumbent guy/party if the economy sucked ass.

But that's boring as hell, and makes everyone sound like greedy fucks, so in spinning the history and the campaigns, it's always about Big Issues or whatever the hell.

Quote from: J Arcane;242140My history teacher had a saying about US history:  "Americans vote with their pocketbooks".  Historically, Americans re-elect the guy/party who had a good economy in his term, or oust the incumbent guy/party if the economy sucked ass.

But that's boring as hell, and makes everyone sound like greedy fucks, so in spinning the history and the campaigns, it's always about Big Issues or whatever the hell.

There is some truth to that. What makes t even more scary is the cyclic nature of the economy and how little real control presidents have over it.

In 20/20 hindsight - its not really an "alternative Timeline". At the time that guy created the web page it WAS 2003. I remember - thats when I first printed it out.

So if any thing its a Sci-Fi parody speculative timeline as in "What if, from this point forward....." kind of trimeline.

 We may be reading it 'now' in 2008, but the present tense of when he first posted it was 2003 . (Like the big frigging note in the beginning of it says to the right of 2003)


- Ed C.

Quote from: CavScout;242144There is some truth to that. What makes t even more scary is the cyclic nature of the economy and how little real control presidents have over it.

For once, we agree. Alt-history especially wants to make everything in history Someone's Fault.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;242050My problem with alt-American History stories is that they all either mine the overworked "British-winning-the-Revolutionary-War-and-hanging-Washington-&-Co." or are just excuses for socio-political diatribes containing a lot of heavy-handed contemporary/pop culture references ("...and Paris Hilton really ran in and won the 2008 elections!" Harhar. Not.)

In my American Empire world, the alternate history hinges on three points -- each a twisted inversion of the highest points in this country.

September 12th, 1787: Dissatisfied with the direction being taken by Phildelphia Conevention, George Washington betrays the other founders, declares himself King George the First, and has most of the congress arrested for sedition.

April 12, 1861: A slave uprising in South Carolina results in the destruction of Fort Sumner.  Fearing that the entirety of the Southern states, which are 90% black, will be lost to a succession of slave revolts, King Franklin the Second mobilizes union troops, sparking the American Civil War.  The war ends with the passage of Domination Proclamation and the passage of the 14th Amendment, that ensures that only white land-owning males will be recognized as citizens of the Kingdom.

January 30th, 1933: The Klu Klux Klan, in the guise of the American Unity Party takes control of the American government in the aftermath of the First World War (which has left America cut off from its once vast network of colony states), finally ending over 100 years of monarchy.  Prime Minister Adolph Hitler, an Austrian immigrant, declares himself Emperor of the New American Empire, and launches an attack on Mexico.  At first European powers seek to appease the new government, but after the fall of Canada the world is forced to respond.  Thus begins the Second World War.  A reinvigorated America allies itself with Japan and the United Kingdoms.  These "Allied Powers" easily crush the Axis of Franco-Scandinavian Powers, and the war ends with the Dominant Empires Treaty Organization (DETO) in a lengthy cold war against the Russo-China Communist Alliance (RCCA).  During this time American social planners enact the "final solution" to the "African Problem," leaving tens of millions dead.

The modern world of the American Empire is superficially similar to our world.  Walk down an American street, and it looks pretty much like you expect.  Maybe a little cleaner, a little wealthier.  A lot less minorities, less immigrants.  Fewer women in business suits.  More orderly.

It's the little things you'd notice first.  The flags are different.  The post office logo is more...menacing.  Everything seems a bit stuck in the past, a bit too Norman Rockwellish.  Eventually you'll notice the Watchmen, following you, recording your movements.  Then the police will show up, with their dogs and their shiny black uniforms, and you'll know you're in a much different place.