I have to admit to you that the magic systems used in the D&D games have never been fulfilling to me. The whole concept of 9 spell levels, the artificial break between arcane and divine magic, the whole way the system works in general. What other magic systems out there strike your fancy, and what do you recommend for the casual gamer?
spell points i susually what we end up using...you get x amount of points per level and we use the spell level list as the pont cost (level one spell is 1 point, level 9 spell is 9 points) which gives the ability to cast tons more lower level spells and such instead of ok you cast 2 spells and rest 8 hours...
I think it really depends. I don't think you can endorse the magic system of Ars Magica to someone who only wants to play D20. The whole mix match thing will work for some people but more often then not you are begging for a huge pile of hurt.
It also really depends on the current type of game you are running. If high fantasy hack n' slash is what you are going for, well D&D magic actually suites that genre pretty good. If you want the game to focus on the abilities of the magic users and have the actual act of casting magic to be as important as what's being cased then a game like Ars Magica, WW's Mage or even Riddle of Steel is something I'd recomend.
Personally I like Warhammer's Magic system. It's not my favorite magic system if you are only looking at that (Ars Magica wins hands down). But in terms of a game where the setting, the mechanics and everything else fit together Warhammers Magic does a nice job of it.
Riddle of Steel has a very good magic system, open ended free form and huge potential. But the personal cost of using magic is extreemly high and neuters the system. Though if you wanted to do a huge magic based game that could be corrected easily enough.
WW's magic system is about in the middle between Ars Magic and Riddle of Steel in terms of freedom and intricacy of spell casting. The original rules with flashback were annoying. I haven't read the nWOD rules yet, but I've heard they are greatly improved. Also Mage The Crusades did a much better job with the original rules because the setting is much better.
Quote from: Reefer Madnessspell points i susually what we end up using...you get x amount of points per level and we use the spell level list as the pont cost (level one spell is 1 point, level 9 spell is 9 points) which gives the ability to cast tons more lower level spells and such instead of ok you cast 2 spells and rest 8 hours...
I remember that sort of system from my 2e days. The problem with it was that it let the characters turn into uber-sorcerers, only picking up multiple copies of the spells they think they'd use. If you feel like sticking with D&D/D20, it's not that hard to use a modified sorcerer for most of your spellcasters. Or if you're happy changing flavor text for your own purposes (and can get over how sci-fi the name sounds), psionics are a good, flexible magic system.
Past that, Zalmoxis really isn't giving us enough information to go on. As Kryyst said, the best magic system depends on one's play style. If we know what you like (and what you can't stand), we can help you zero in on a good match that much better.
Decipher's Lord of the Rings game has a magic system that could be fairly easily adapted to D&D. It's based on rolling against a Target Number to avoid becoming fatigued. You can cast as much as you want as long as you don't pass out from exhaustion. More powerful spells have a higher TN to avoid Fatigue. I'd say make the Fatigue roll a Fort save using the Target Number as the DC (they're equivalent, but I'd adjust it up; they're too low in the LotR game), and then applying a succession of the various D&D conditions (shaken, etc.) as Fatigue rolls are missed, until after the worst one, the character passes out.
Quote from: HumanophileI remember that sort of system from my 2e days. The problem with it was that it let the characters turn into uber-sorcerers, only picking up multiple copies of the spells they think they'd use. If you feel like sticking with D&D/D20, it's not that hard to use a modified sorcerer for most of your spellcasters. Or if you're happy changing flavor text for your own purposes (and can get over how sci-fi the name sounds), psionics are a good, flexible magic system.
Past that, Zalmoxis really isn't giving us enough information to go on. As Kryyst said, the best magic system depends on one's play style. If we know what you like (and what you can't stand), we can help you zero in on a good match that much better.
I am not looking for a magic system to fit any specific genre or style, other than fantasy. I am merely soliciting a variety of magic systems as a starting point, so I can check them out and find one I like the best.
By the way I have already gotten some examples I will have to look at at from this thread; thank you all for that. Please though, continue.
I actually like the 3.5 psionics system; if you scrape the serial numbers off you have a pretty nifty spell points sytem. My project to translate all the SRD spells into powers has bogged down to time limitations, sadly.
The Arcana Evolved system is pretty nice. Sorta like sorcery, but you can change your spells known (readied) every day. Also has some fun ways to play with spell slots. I recommend taking a look.
Check out Arcana Evolved.
It's flexible, powerful, balanced, and unified. There's no arcane/divine distinction; instead, there's a simple/complex/exotic distinction.
Spells can be cast a level higher or a level lower to improve options.
Low-level slots can be combined to cast high-level spells and vice-versa.
"Templates" can be gained with feats to modify spells and add or remove effects.
Overall, it's complex but a hell of a lot of fun.
Although I haven't tried it in play yet, the Blue Rose/True20 spellcasting system looks pretty impressive, too. It's skill-based rather than spell-based.
-O
If you haven't looked at it already, you might check out Unearthed Arcana. There is a variant spell point system there.
Personally, I really like the spell point system found in FFG's Midnight setting. By making sure that everything revolves around points (as opposed to something a bit more complex like spell slots), it seems like adding additional magic subsystems becomes a lot easier potentially making the magic system richer. One example from Midnight is the use of ritual casting. Adding additional casters simply reduces the spell point cost.
Of course, some of the magic system in Midnight is inherently tied to the premise of the setting so take that example with kind of a grain of salt.
Arcan Unearthed has a neat system, though it is inherently lowered powered than the standard D&D system. I've never played it, but it's a great read.
One thing I have been thinking about is a fatigue-based casting system, by which spellcasting wears a caster down mentally without causing any loss to actual hit points. Such a state would leave the caster vulnerable to attack by other spellcasters, because spell duels would be handled like combat, with opposing rolls. Spellcasters with "full" slots would be unfatigued, and thus able to better defend themselves against attacks by other casters. Hmm. Just brainstorming today.
That sounds okay in theory. My big gripe with systems like that is in-play transparency. I don't want to have to recalculate & manage any more stats during gameplay than absolutely necessary.
The AE spellcasting system pushes it for me; that's basically my high-water mark for complexity.
-O
Quote from: obrynThat sounds okay in theory. My big gripe with systems like that is in-play transparency. I don't want to have to recalculate & manage any more stats during gameplay than absolutely necessary.
The AE spellcasting system pushes it for me; that's basically my high-water mark for complexity.
-O
I don't think it'd be that hard to track. Regardless if it effects you mentally or both mentally and physically. You wouldn't have to endlessly recalculate stats. Just have an accumulator that rises, every so many points you get a penalty to any saves that are required.
QuoteOne thing I have been thinking about is a fatigue-based casting system, by which spellcasting wears a caster down mentally without causing any loss to actual hit points. Such a state would leave the caster vulnerable to attack by other spellcasters, because spell duels would be handled like combat, with opposing rolls. Spellcasters with "full" slots would be unfatigued, and thus able to better defend themselves against attacks by other casters. Hmm. Just brainstorming today.
My own homebrew system uses this kind of a mechanic, combined with spells-as-skills similar to the Star Wars force rules.
Fatigue-based systems are neat in that they give spellcasters the chance to cast many more spells, so long as they stay low powered. When they really need the big spell, it can pretty much end their day. Also, by making the fatigue tied to a roll, it removes some of the predictability from things, which I personally like.
Quote from: ZalmoxisOne thing I have been thinking about is a fatigue-based casting system, by which spellcasting wears a caster down mentally without causing any loss to actual hit points.
I'd have to double check to be sure I'm remembering correctly, but I think that's essentially how the True20 magic system works. There are 20 or so magical skills - spells are checks against a difficulty number, some magical skills cause fatigue.
I should have a look at true 20 then, because I like fatigue system but I don't want to tie them to hit points, if only because it feels weird that primary casters, who tend to have few hp, are not that good at sustaining spell casting.
I'm also looking for ways to avoid the X/day systems because they're balanced against a parameter (basically what a PC is supposed to do in one given day) which is everchanging and varies wildly. It also bothers me because it introduces many differences in rythm between PCs, like the monumentally boring "one spellcaster is out of spell, let's rest !".
Since I'm mainly DMing Arcana Evolved these days, (where the spells power curve in level isn't as important as the D&D one), I'm wondering about letting spellcasters who used all their slots in the standard way continue to cast spells with some fatigue/malus/limitations.
random ideas for spell casts after exhaustion of spell slots:
- every spell cast diminishes primary spellcasting stat by its level for a duration
- every spell cast has is casting time doubled
- only diminished forms can be cast
I'm not sure about the duration, but the first option is kinda growing on me. It could also work for the ritual combats.
Chacal
Quote from: ChacalI should have a look at true 20 then, because I like fatigue system but I don't want to tie them to hit points, if only because it feels weird that primary casters, who tend to have few hp, are not that good at sustaining spell casting.
I'm also looking for ways to avoid the X/day systems because they're balanced against a parameter (basically what a PC is supposed to do in one given day) which is everchanging and varies wildly. It also bothers me because it introduces many differences in rythm between PCs, like the monumentally boring "one spellcaster is out of spell, let's rest !".
Since I'm mainly DMing Arcana Evolved these days, (where the spells power curve in level isn't as important as the D&D one), I'm wondering about letting spellcasters who used all their slots in the standard way continue to cast spells with some fatigue/malus/limitations.
random ideas for spell casts after exhaustion of spell slots:
- every spell cast diminishes primary spellcasting stat by its level for a duration
- every spell cast has is casting time doubled
- only diminished forms can be cast
I'm not sure about the duration, but the first option is kinda growing on me. It could also work for the ritual combats.
Chacal
I think having something like a magic potential score for all characters, but inherantly higher among those trained as spellcasters, would work. I have tinkered with the idea of getting rid of saving throws altogether, and tying magic saves to this magic potential score. In that way all characters could still save against spells, but magic users would have a better capability in this regard. Personally I prefer spellcaster who are more front-loaded with lesser kinds of spells, and making higher level spells require group casting or serious planning/ritual. This is similar to the way magic is presented in folklore, with minor magics like enchantments, illusions, healing and divinations being pretty much standard to all spellcasters, be they shamans, witches, sorcerers or whatever.
The Black Company by Green Ronin has a decent system where you can weave spells together and is more skill based, but it involves a lot of math. Arcana Evolved has I think a preferrable system where each spells has a laden, normal and heightened effect. It allows you to cast spells of lower levels for laden effects or combine spell slots to cast heightened spells. It is very balanced and I really recommend it.
One of my players is designing a new system that mimics the flexability of thew psionics system but its still a long way off.
Quote from: sunfearOne of my players is designing a new system that mimics the flexability of thew psionics system but its still a long way off.
That would be me. :)
Quote from: ZalmoxisOne thing I have been thinking about is a fatigue-based casting system, by which spellcasting wears a caster down mentally without causing any loss to actual hit points. Such a state would leave the caster vulnerable to attack by other spellcasters, because spell duels would be handled like combat, with opposing rolls. Spellcasters with "full" slots would be unfatigued, and thus able to better defend themselves against attacks by other casters. Hmm. Just brainstorming today.
Here's one from Unearthed Arcana. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm#spellPointVariantVitalizing) It's OGC.
Quote from: sunfearArcana Evolved has I think a preferrable system where each spells has a laden, normal and heightened effect. It allows you to cast spells of lower levels for laden effects or combine spell slots to cast heightened spells. It is very balanced and I really recommend it.
I haven't used it in play, but it does seem really good. There are a couple of places where the heightened/diminished thing isn't very well thought-out though, like the
lesser raise the dead spell.
Let me explain, for those who are not familiar with the system. Each spell you know comes in three versions: a "diminished" version, the standard version, and a "heightened" version. The diminished version costs a spell slot of one level lower to cast, and the heightened one level higher. You still can't cast the diminished spell until you are of high enough level to cast the regular spell, though (partially "just because", and partially because you don't have any "spells readied" slots of that level yet).
So, IMO, diminished versions of the spells should still be useful compared to the standard version - they should be less powerful, but there should be situations where you would use the diminished spell as opposed to the regular spell in order to conserve resources. However, with the case of
lesser raise the dead, the spell needs casting seven times over the course of a week, with each casting taking eight hours and costing 500 gp (material component). The only difference in the diminished version is that there's a 50% chance of failure at the end of the process.
Now, given that everyone who can cast diminished
lesser raise the dead can also cast a regular
lesser raise the dead, why would anyone choose to cast the diminished version?
Quote from: DackeNow, given that everyone who can cast diminished lesser raise the dead can also cast a regular lesser raise the dead, why would anyone choose to cast the diminished version?
A morbid form of gambling?
Or if you promised your cousin that you would cast raise dead on him but you never really liked him.
Another vote for Arcana Evolved/Unearthed here. It's a nice system that strikes the balances that i'm most interested in.
I'm now a full-fledged True20 pimp. Love the magic system in there.
Do the basic True20 rules differ substantially from the Blue Rose rules?
I know Blue Rose has stuff like Corruption and whatnot that would seem detrimental to a lot of high-fantasy sorcery.
-O
Quote from: obrynDo the basic True20 rules differ substantially from the Blue Rose rules?
I know Blue Rose has stuff like Corruption and whatnot that would seem detrimental to a lot of high-fantasy sorcery.
-O
Not substantially... it is basically Blue Rose without the setting; only the rules. I find the system is both constraining and liberating. It's easier to get what you want earlier, and spellcasters are more able to hold their own early-on, but fatigue is there to put limits on casters. I like that. Corruption did not make it into the core rules... I think that's just Blue Rose-specific. The spells are greatly simplified; for example, the spell Earth Shaping combines Move Earth, Soften Earth, Shape Stone and Earthquake into one spell... adjucated by difficulty checks. The spells are also stackable, using the prerequisites idea of feats.
I've always loved White Wolf's Mage magic but it is a much more complex system to handle.
I would love to see a fantasy variant that is more power appropriate but built off the same ideas.
I'm playing in a Mage game, and although the magic system is undoubtedly fun, I'm not really a fan at the moment. Maybe it's because we're using Mage 1.0 with the most fantastically complex & ridiculous dice rolling system ever. I dunno. :)
-O
Quote from: ZalmoxisI'm now a full-fledged True20 pimp. Love the magic system in there.
We are curious how the fatigue rules work. We like the idea of a caster using spells until exhaustion, rather than having slots or points, but we have seen such systems where two magic missiles and a web would exhaust a 5th level character.
Quote from: obrynI'm playing in a Mage game, and although the magic system is undoubtedly fun, I'm not really a fan at the moment. Maybe it's because we're using Mage 1.0 with the most fantastically complex & ridiculous dice rolling system ever. I dunno. :)
-O
I wasn't thinking the mechanics of the dice but the basic idea of areas of mastery and the ability to create effects based on your level of mastery in each area and your total level of power.
I'm no fan of Wheel of Time, but the RPG actually has a pretty good alternate magic system. It manages to get rid of the restrictiveness of 9 straight levels without introducing points, which I personally don't really like. IMO they make it seem too much like final fantasy.
The way it works is each spell has 4-5 different levels that it can be casted at, which changes the degree of the spell (i.e. damage, radius, length of time, etc.). This is better than spell-modification options (i.e. something like D&D's feats that modify spells) because it doesn't give you quite so much of a bewildering array of options.
The only problem is that it perhaps is a little limiting in scope, and is a little WoT specific. But most of the spells one would want to cast are there, and the WoT flavor can be removed without much effort. If you like a more elemental flavor for your magic as opposed to arcane it's definitely sufficient in scope.
I've always thought D&D magic should have had a roll to successfully cast. A Base Magic Bonus to match up with a Base Attack Bonus.
That said, I really want to try Mage sometime.
OK, real simple...
DC = 10+Spell Level+Times cast(-Spells per Day)*
* is optional. I use it to give them a little break.
It's a Willpower check.
If they fail, they can either take damage (1d4/6 per spell level) or you can subtract a point from thier Willpower per spell level.
Works good, fairly balanced, and funny when someone fails.
ZZZAAAAPPPP!
Hmm... Thanks! :)
Quote from: T-WillardOK, real simple...
DC = 10+Spell Level+Times cast(-Spells per Day)*
* is optional. I use it to give them a little break.
It's a Willpower check.
If they fail, they can either take damage (1d4/6 per spell level) or you can subtract a point from thier Willpower per spell level.
Works good, fairly balanced, and funny when someone fails.
ZZZAAAAPPPP!
Hey that's pretty neat. Thanks! :)
Spells and Magic from Bastion Press has a Rune Magic system I like. You learn runes instead of individual spells. Each rune grants you access to a list of ten spells, one each from level 0-9, that are related to each other (there's a rune that deals with healing, one that deals with summoning, etc). As you go up in level you are able to use the more powerful spells associated with the runes you know, and you can also learn new runes. The runes they use are baesd on real viking futhark runes.
Quote from: TechnomancerSpells and Magic from Bastion Press has a Rune Magic system I like. You learn runes instead of individual spells. Each rune grants you access to a list of ten spells, one each from level 0-9, that are related to each other (there's a rune that deals with healing, one that deals with summoning, etc). As you go up in level you are able to use the more powerful spells associated with the runes you know, and you can also learn new runes. The runes they use are baesd on real viking futhark runes.
That could be fun. That was roughly the premise of my book, Elements of Magic. But runes might be a cooler hook than the D&D elemental planes. :)
Quote from: CyberzombieThat could be fun. That was roughly the premise of my book, Elements of Magic. But runes might be a cooler hook than the D&D elemental planes. :)
I was actually going to recommmend EoM as well because of the good things I've heard about it, but not having actually seen it myself I figured I should refrain.