Quote from: GeekEclectic;1135239Sounds like 5e is continuing the legacy of 3e, which made fighters a lot less unique and spellcasters much more powerful than their 2e counterparts.

It does not. You should play a battlemaster fighter yourself and you will see the original poster is wrong in his assessment.

OR you could take the word of one guy after 6 years of the game being out and millions playing the game, and shrug and just assume the one guy posting on the Internet is right?

Me, I find the fighter plays very strong. Particularly the Battlemaster.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135401I'm just saying that compared to a basic weapon attack, cantrips can eventually do significantly more damage, which pretty much undermines basic weapon damage

In 5e? LOL no they don't. Wow. Cantrip damage...it truly isn't good. At any level. Ever. It does not compare to fighter damage. Not well at all.

I've been playing that class.  So please tell me how wrong I am.

Let's consider, oh, Warlock.

Eldritch Blast.  1d10 DAM.  Ranged Spell Attack; 120'.  2 Beams (Attacks) at 5th; 3 at 11; 4 at 17.
Agonizing Blast adds CHA Mod to DAM.  Eldritch Spear can extend range to 300'; Repelling Blast can add a 10' push (which is a Superiority Dice expended for a Fighter).  3 choices of the class's 8.

Fighters by comparison.
Long Sword.  1d8 DAM.  Melee range.  Extra Attacks at 5, 11, and 20 (Edit from typo).

Dueling adds +2 DAM.

Damage done at range?  0.

Quote from: trechriron;1135255Apparently everyone in 5e should have 2 levels of Rogue?

Huh? When should they take these 2 levels and why? I've seen some very good descriptions of 5Es issues with balance and multi-classing, but this one seems pretty far out ... care to explain?

Quote from: GameThug;1135496You're more or less leading the counter-case, so you're getting my reply.

I assume you're talking to me, but unless you quote someone your reply is simply general to the thread.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496I don't think there's any credible case to be made that Fighters are competitive, in any role, in 5E.

You are incredibly wrong.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496I don't see how you can look at Fighters getting their 4th attack at level 20, and look at Warlocks getting a 4th Eldritch blast target BEFORE that, and tell me Fighters are awesome.

Fighters are awesome. Eldritch Blast is also a great damage cantrip, and only available to Warlocks. Warlocks have two spell slots plus at high levels some Mystic arcanums, therefore they get the better cantrip. It's even better if you take the Agonizing blast invocation, as that lets you add your ability modifier to your cantrip damage. And the damage is roughly comparable between a four beam Eldritch Blast with Agonizing blast and a Fighter with three attacks. It depends a bit on the Fighter's loadout, if we're running with feats etc (a Polearm equipped polearm master with GWF, GWM and PWM can do horrendous amounts of damage), but yeah, about the same damage output for a Champion Fighter. The Champion Fighter can of course use Action Surge twice per short rest also, which is fairly similar to the Warlock's ability to use two spells per short rest. A Battlemaster Fighter is doing somewhat less average damage, but the Superiority dice and maneuvers make up for it. An Eldritch Knight can combine casting a cantrip and making a weapon attack in one round. Other subclasses all have their own tricks.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496Yes, GWM.  So what?  GWM does not stack with Duellist, leaving Fighters at a massive disadvantage to-hit.

Duelist doesn't give a bonus to hit but to damage, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Could it be another person who claims Fighters are weak without understanding the rules? Also, do the math. The damage bonus is so big that a Fighter will do more damage on average with a GWM attack action than without one, even though he has a smaller chance of hitting per attack. But GWM is a feat, and optional, so won't always be available.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496In whatever fantasy world the designers are living in where parties short rest 6-8 times per day, then sure, Battlemasters can recharge their Superiority Dice.

How many groups actually do that?  Hell--how many parties have TWO encounters per day?

Nobody has ever said anything about 6-8 short rests. It's 6-8 encounters per adventuring day. About two to three short rests on average. I can say that the groups I've played 5e with have all gotten closer to 6-8 encounters per day than 2. If your group isn't doing that, you either need to put in more encounters, or change the duration of long and short rests. Further, if you aren't even doing two encounters per day, a Battlemaster has no reason to not use all Superiority Dice in that one battle. That's a massive damage boost.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496Casters can do 1d10 damage one handed, at range.  Many have class features that permit them to add ability bonus to DAM.  Further, many spells are save for half; Fighters hit or miss.

No Cantrips are save for half, they're all save for negation. If we're talking proper spells then we've got to add in Action Surge and such for the Fighter as well.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496There's no doubt that you can stat out a weak, sub optimal caster that a top-tier Fighter can match--some of the time.

In combat, an average fighter will match or outperform an average spellcaster most of the time.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496Cantrips never run out of ammo.

This has literally never been a problem any of the times I've played 5e. The archers have never run out of ammo.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496And as an aside--stop offering the Barbarian as a response to what is fundamentally a question about Fighters.

I invite you to read the thread title of the thread you posted, which reads "Alterative [sic] Class System for 5E in which Martial Classes Don't Suck". Martial classes, not Fighters specifically. Further, I was talking to someone else, who actually talked about how he thought Barbarians would do worse than Fighters in a comparison of damage against a cantrip wielding Wizard. Hence an example using a barbarian is quite relevant.

Quote from: Mistwell;1135507In 5e? LOL no they don't. Wow. Cantrip damage...it truly isn't good. At any level. Ever. It does not compare to fighter damage. Not well at all.

Warlock Eldritch Blast cantrip damage is good, but that is pretty much all a Warlock is about. A 17th level Wizard casting a fire bolt on the other hand is going to be outdamaged by an 11th level sword and board fighter.

Quote from: GameThug;1135510I've been playing that class.  So please tell me how wrong I am.

Let's consider, oh, Warlock.

Eldritch Blast.  1d10 DAM.  Ranged Spell Attack; 120'.  2 Beams (Attacks) at 5th; 3 at 11; 4 at 17.
Agonizing Blast adds CHA Mod to DAM.  Eldritch Spear can extend range to 300'; Repelling Blast can add a 10' push (which is a Superiority Dice expended for a Fighter).  3 choices of the class's 8.

Fighters by comparison.
Long Sword.  1d8 DAM.  Melee range.  Extra Attacks at 5, 11, and 18.

Dueling adds +2 DAM.

Damage done at range?  0.

If you wanted to do damage at range you would have picked a Longbow and the Archery style. Or be a Champion fighter and pick both Dueling and Archery. If you wanted to do the most damage possible you would have picked up a Greatsword and taken Great Weapon Fighting. Oh, and the Fighters last extra attack comes at level 20, at level 18 Fighters get a Martial Archetype Feature.

Quote from: GameThug;1135496In whatever fantasy world the designers are living in where parties short rest 6-8 times per day, then sure, Battlemasters can recharge their Superiority Dice.

How many groups actually do that?  Hell--how many parties have TWO encounters per day?

Probably a lot if you're doing the classic dungeon crawl.  But if you're not you do really need to use some kind of rest variant of Fighters will indeed seem like they suck.

My experience is that Fighters pull their weight if the rest schedule is followed.  At relatively high levels (say around 10 or so) Second Wind feels useful as it's quite a lot of free healing if you're doing it 3 times in a day.

They're dull though.  It wouldn't be such a problem if most of the PCs were cut from the same cloth but it does feel to me that if I'm playin a Fighter I'm playing 2E while the rest of the party is playing 4E, and I have to sit through all their deliberations over powers and combos just to get a chance to swing my sword.  The rogue,however, is the class which is truly boring in combat.

Quote from: TJS;1135523Probably a lot if you're doing the classic dungeon crawl.  But if you're not you do really need to use some kind of rest variant of Fighters will indeed seem like they suck.

My experience is that Fighters pull their weight if the rest schedule is followed.  At relatively high levels (say around 10 or so) Second Wind feels useful as it's quite a lot of free healing if you're doing it 3 times in a day.

They're dull though.  It wouldn't be such a problem if most of the PCs were cut from the same cloth but it does feel to me that if I'm playin a Fighter I'm playing 2E while the rest of the party is playing 4E, and I have to sit through all their deliberations over powers and combos just to get a chance to swing my sword.  The rogue,however, is the class which is truly boring in combat.

Then you aren't fighting right. I've played the Fighter who was the one doing all the crazy shit. Battlemaster Fighter with Polearm mastery, a Glaive and Great Weapon Fighting. Hear the other players say "oh shit, it's Blankman's turn, this is going to take a while." Two attacks per round at level one (Variant Human, so you start with the Polearm mastery) and re-rolling damage rolls of 1-2 makes for a lot of dice rolling in comparison to everyone else. Add in maneuvers and superiority dice a few levels later and there's even more to do. Also, as a polearm master you control the battlefield. You've got the reach and get to attack people as soon as they move into your reach. Your positioning thus becomes extremely important, especially if you take the Sentinel feat as you can then stop them in their tracks, before they can even reach you or your line. Compare that to "ehh, I cast Toll the Dead again I guess." Any class can be boring or awesome, it all depends on what you want to do, how you play the character and how much you engage.

Greetings!

Fighters can always shoot a Wizard or a Warlock with flaming arrows--or arrows dipped in acid, or poison. While the spellcaster is dealing with that--the Fighter closes in on them, and slaughters them swiftly. Wizards and Warlocks have pathetic hit points, and are extremely weak. They go down fast when a warrior gets into hand to hand combat with them.

Besides Fighters being quite formidable in hand to hand combat--Fighters also have additional advantages, especially by higher levels. In my own World of Thandor, Fighters have access to awesome feats, as well as enormous gold-and-treasure generating options, and a far superior ability to raise fortresses, gather huge armies, and deploy resources that can easily make a Wizard or Warlock something to laugh at as they are hunted down, tortured, and burned at the stake for heresy. Battalions of Witch Hunters are always eager to track down and slaughter evil scum like Warlocks, Witches, and Wizards. Any Fighter facing up against such a rival should be able to easily recruit such determined and ruthless allies to make Wizard's, Witches, and Warlock's lives a living hell until they are caught and brought to a final judgment.

Fighters are also more rugged, and have more hit points. Fighters can survive and triumph against overwhelming odds, on a continuous basis, even in sub-optimal environments. No rests required.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Blankman;1135525Then you aren't fighting right. I've played the Fighter who was the one doing all the crazy shit. Battlemaster Fighter with Polearm mastery, a Glaive and Great Weapon Fighting. Hear the other players say "oh shit, it's Blankman's turn, this is going to take a while." Two attacks per round at level one (Variant Human, so you start with the Polearm mastery) and re-rolling damage rolls of 1-2 makes for a lot of dice rolling in comparison to everyone else. Add in maneuvers and superiority dice a few levels later and there's even more to do. Also, as a polearm master you control the battlefield. You've got the reach and get to attack people as soon as they move into your reach. Your positioning thus becomes extremely important, especially if you take the Sentinel feat as you can then stop them in their tracks, before they can even reach you or your line. Compare that to "ehh, I cast Toll the Dead again I guess." Any class can be boring or awesome, it all depends on what you want to do, how you play the character and how much you engage.

Greetings!

Damn Straight! Fighters are not weak. If someone thinks Fighters are weak, then either they aren't playing them right, or the DM is just sitting on them to somehow keep them down and crippled.

Fighters are great with big, awesome weapons. Get magic weapons that do even more. Magic armour, shields that have biting lion heads, polearms, awesome spears. Jump around, move, use good feats and bring the fire and death to the enemy. You have to be creative, aggressive, and bold!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Blankman;1135522If you wanted to do damage at range you would have picked a Longbow and the Archery style. Or be a Champion fighter and pick both Dueling and Archery. If you wanted to do the most damage possible you would have picked up a Greatsword and taken Great Weapon Fighting. Oh, and the Fighters last extra attack comes at level 20, at level 18 Fighters get a Martial Archetype Feature.

Yes, apologies.  The 18 was a typo.

Quote from: Blankman;1135525Then you aren't fighting right. I've played the Fighter who was the one doing all the crazy shit. Battlemaster Fighter with Polearm mastery, a Glaive and Great Weapon Fighting. Hear the other players say "oh shit, it's Blankman's turn, this is going to take a while." Two attacks per round at level one (Variant Human, so you start with the Polearm mastery) and re-rolling damage rolls of 1-2 makes for a lot of dice rolling in comparison to everyone else. Add in maneuvers and superiority dice a few levels later and there's even more to do. Also, as a polearm master you control the battlefield. You've got the reach and get to attack people as soon as they move into your reach. Your positioning thus becomes extremely important, especially if you take the Sentinel feat as you can then stop them in their tracks, before they can even reach you or your line. Compare that to "ehh, I cast Toll the Dead again I guess." Any class can be boring or awesome, it all depends on what you want to do, how you play the character and how much you engage.

Yes, you roll a lot.

You don't DO a lot.

Battlefield control isn't nothing, but don't overstate the value of your one reaction effect--provided you hit.  Contrast that with the automatic reaction effects of other classes.

Quote from: SHARK;1135526Greetings!

Fighters can always shoot a Wizard or a Warlock with flaming arrows--or arrows dipped in acid, or poison. While the spellcaster is dealing with that--the Fighter closes in on them, and slaughters them swiftly. Wizards and Warlocks have pathetic hit points, and are extremely weak. They go down fast when a warrior gets into hand to hand combat with them.

Besides Fighters being quite formidable in hand to hand combat--Fighters also have additional advantages, especially by higher levels. In my own World of Thandor, Fighters have access to awesome feats, as well as enormous gold-and-treasure generating options, and a far superior ability to raise fortresses, gather huge armies, and deploy resources that can easily make a Wizard or Warlock something to laugh at as they are hunted down, tortured, and burned at the stake for heresy. Battalions of Witch Hunters are always eager to track down and slaughter evil scum like Warlocks, Witches, and Wizards. Any Fighter facing up against such a rival should be able to easily recruit such determined and ruthless allies to make Wizard's, Witches, and Warlock's lives a living hell until they are caught and brought to a final judgment.

Fighters are also more rugged, and have more hit points. Fighters can survive and triumph against overwhelming odds, on a continuous basis, even in sub-optimal environments. No rests required.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

None of your custom stuff matters here.

Quote from: Blankman;1135520Duelist doesn't give a bonus to hit but to damage, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Could it be another person who claims Fighters are weak without understanding the rules? Also, do the math. The damage bonus is so big that a Fighter will do more damage on average with a GWM attack action than without one, even though he has a smaller chance of hitting per attack. But GWM is a feat, and optional, so won't always be available.

It gives bonus Damage without a To-Hit Penalty, in contrast to big bonus damage with a major penalty.  Were a Fighter able to use the Duelist ability with a great weapon, it would offer more predictable damage and better options.

Quote from: Blankman;1135520I invite you to read the thread title of the thread you posted, which reads "Alterative [sic] Class System for 5E in which Martial Classes Don't Suck". Martial classes, not Fighters specifically. Further, I was talking to someone else, who actually talked about how he thought Barbarians would do worse than Fighters in a comparison of damage against a cantrip wielding Wizard. Hence an example using a barbarian is quite relevant.

There's a Post along with that Title, and you spend a lot of time talking about something other than the center of the problem.