Quote from: spon;1135517Huh? When should they take these 2 levels and why? I've seen some very good descriptions of 5Es issues with balance and multi-classing, but this one seems pretty far out ... care to explain?

Played a one-shot 5th or 6th level game. Everyone multi-classed into rogue, had some feats or what not, they we're all doing sneak attack damage on top of weapon damage. My Dork Pants Ranger was doing 1d8 +2. It was like 16 point! 12 points! 22 points! I was like. 5. Yay?

Not sure why it seems pretty far out. These are experienced 5e players. I was at the table for 8 hours whiffing like a partially-blind t-ball player in a wind storm.

Quote from: trechriron;1135774Played a one-shot 5th or 6th level game. Everyone multi-classed into rogue, had some feats or what not, they we're all doing sneak attack damage on top of weapon damage. My Dork Pants Ranger was doing 1d8 +2. It was like 16 point! 12 points! 22 points! I was like. 5. Yay?

Not sure why it seems pretty far out. These are experienced 5e players. I was at the table for 8 hours whiffing like a partially-blind t-ball player in a wind storm.

Did the GM permit Aim as a Cunning Action?

If you're 5th or 6th level and everyone else has 1 or 2 levels of Rogue, then the Ranger should be the only one getting an extra attack every round, which should more then make up for a mere 1d6 extra damage from sneak attack.

Something seems wrong here.

Quote from: GameThug;1135680If you think 5E classes are well-balanced, you're probably not the guy to help me.  If you're unaware of the reams of writing on this topic, and you need to be in order to make a recommendation, you're not the guy to help me.

Eh I feel like all the classes in 5e are OP. Some people call that balanced, but I don't.

In optimal 5e, the fighter is a critical high DPR (damage per round) team member. They take either Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Master. As a Battlemaster they can set up some of their advantage. Champions get a unique benefit with Great Weapon Master because with that feat you can make an extra attack as a bonus action whenever you kill or get a crit. Champions extra crit actually means something then. Then for fighters try to grab wisdom save prof feat at lvl 14. Eldritch Knights get spells, grab one good buff spells per level with your free pick and use your con save prof to keep it up.

In a proper party, your allies set up advantage which allows you to make the most out of those -5 hit/+10 damage feats. Oh great weapon fighting is roughly +1.33 damage with a 2d6 greatsword or +2.66 on crits. It adds up.

Or you could play games like The Black Hack 2e or Solar Blades & Cosmic Spells where the Fighter equivalent is the party damage/mook clear. SB&CS takes from OD&D a little bit and gives you extra attacks equal to the different between your level and the HD of foes, which allows you to just slaughter mooks at higher levels that would otherwise be a major threat. I would recommend SB&CS because a more gonzo setting makes the simpler rules go over better.

Quote from: trechriron;1135774Played a one-shot 5th or 6th level game. Everyone multi-classed into rogue, had some feats or what not, they we're all doing sneak attack damage on top of weapon damage. My Dork Pants Ranger was doing 1d8 +2. It was like 16 point! 12 points! 22 points! I was like. 5. Yay?

Not sure why it seems pretty far out. These are experienced 5e players. I was at the table for 8 hours whiffing like a partially-blind t-ball player in a wind storm.

1-shots are a bit different, I can see that if everyone decides to choose it, it might be a bit overpowered. But you should have been Hunter's marking every time (if you're counting sneak, you should include your buff). It also sounds like the others had been working together for a while - and what were the feats? The only mix I know that's overpowered is the handxbow/sniper (2 or 3 shots, -5 to hit +10 damage every round), but I haven't been exposed to too much Min/Maxing so I'm willing to believe it is possible.

That said, it does suck to be in that situation. 1-offs can be a bit crazy. I avoid them except with people I know well - or if I'm the GM.

Quote from: GameThug;1135626Oh, so your example of the excellence of martials in general is a build based on one feat with one weapon type?  That totally disproves my claim that the Fighter class is weak.

No, that is one example, and we got into it because you posted something weird about Great Weapon Master not stacking with Dueling. also, is it martials in general or Fighters in particular. Because you seemed really angry earlier when I talked about Barbarians in a discussion with someone else, but here you are bringing them into the discussion. I also can't see how you would think I think only GWM users are excellent when I wrote, in a post you quoted, "But GWM is a feat, and optional, so won't always be available."

So let's look further. At level 6, a Champion Fighter with the Archery fighting style using a Longbow is likely to have a Dex modifier of +5 (a Fighter is two ASIs deep at this point). That leads to a +10 to hit and 1D8+5 damage per hit, two attacks per round as standard, crits on 19-20. Let's say fighting enemies with AC 18. That leads to an average of 6,625 damage per attack, or an average of 13,25 damage per round. A Warlock at that level probably has a Cha modifier of +4 (only one ASI deep). That leads to a +7 to hit and 1D10+4 damage per hit. Same AC 18 enemies. That's an average of 5,025 per attack, or 10,05 average damage per round. That's without any feats on the Archer's side.

We can do the same with a Strength-based Duelist Champion fighter. Same level, 6, likely to have Str modifier of +5. So +8 to hit and 1D8+7 damage per hit. Let's go with the same AC 18 enemies. The Duelist is pumping out an average of 6,775 damage per attack, or 13,55 average damage per round. Slightly more than the Archer and obviously still ahead of the Warlock. Note that this is not using feats, just the standard Champion fighter stuff, and a reasonable fighting style. And the Champion fighter is often regarded as the worst Fighter subclass in the PHB. But let's take a Defense focused Fighter using a Longsword and Shield, or a Longbow. Same scenario as above otherwise. This Fighter will deal an average of 5,675 damage per attack, or 11,35 average damage per round. That's still more than the Warlock. The Fighter is also going to have more HP and a higher AC (especially if using a shield and heavy armor, but even an archer will have this) than the Warlock.

Now, you may think it a little unfair to use level 6 as an example (although it is a level that certainly sees more play in general than level 17), but if we bump up the examples to level 8 where the Warlock gets another stat boost, the Fighter will also get one, and can use this to increase Con (and thus HP) or shore up a weaker stat, or take a feat if playing with that option. The Warlock will at this level do an average of 6,05 damage per beam, or 12,1 average damage with the whole Eldritch blast. So at this point the Warlock is outdamaging the Defensively focused Fighter, but not the ones that focused on ranged damage or a mix of offense and defense (Duelist). Even a Fighter with the Defense fighting style will outdamage the Warlock at this level if using a Greatsword, with an average of 14,6 damage per round (again, same example with AC18 enemies). This is still without feats. So no Great Weapon Master, and not even the damage boosting Great Weapon Fighting, and still doing more damage than a Warlock.

If we add Feats, which the Fighter gets more of, you can give the Archer Crossbow Expert, thus moving the damage die up to a D10, just like Eldritch Blast. Only the Archer gets a +2 to hit and doubled chance of critical hits, and no disadvantage if within 5 feet of a hostile (which will happen at some point). Or we can give our Duelist Shield Master, which increases both survivability and damage potential (by adding a Shove as a bonus attack). Or we can take Dual Wielder and go full Two Weapon Fighting, getting to use two Longswords (or Warhammers or what have you), for an extra attack each round with attribute bonus to damage, as well as gaining an extra point of AC (such a character at Level 8 will be pumping out an average of 17,025 damage for an attack action and a bonus attack, 15,075 if just using two Short swords).

Now a Warlock also has spells, but only two per short rest. And a Fighter has Action Surge, which will massively increase average damage output on a turn. Both classes are short rest based, and a Warlock who concentrates all Invocations on Eldritch Blast isn't going to really have anything else to use at lower levels. A Warlock therefore does a bit less average damage and is more vulnerable than the Fighter(both lower AC and fewer HP), but often has a range advantage over the fighter (a Longbow or Heavy Crossbow outranges the Eldritch Blast but with Disadvantage, though of course fights at those ranges aren't exactly common). And the Warlock is the only class who can even come close to a Fighter (or Barbarian, or Ranger, or Paladin) with cantrip damage. And well, that's kind of the Warlock's raison d'etre. They're the spellcasting class for when you want to use cantrips all the time instead of just when there's nothing better to do.

If you really feel that Fighter's need a boost in combat (I really disagree with you here, but whatever) then consider letting them add their Proficiency bonus to their weapon damage rolls. From a certain level of course, unless you disallow multiclassing. This is going to give them a real boost to damage output (our duelist in the above example would jump to 16,85 average damage per attack action).