Quote from: BrantaiThe hell you were?

Hell yeah!

Actually I thought this was a really interesting scenareo.  The devil takes over the world: What do your Characters do?  There's a lot that could be done with this, especially if you take the Fae into account.  I'm even tempted to write this one up as a game setting.   I think it's pretty DAMN awesome.  

- Mark

:confused:

I think we're not quite getting you, dude.  

The Christians had a lot of stuff they respected about the Greco-Roman philosophers, you know.  They certainly didn't see the Roman empire as "Evil" as such; they did see it as degenerate and misguided, but you'll note that once they took over they weren't actually TRYING to dismantle the Roman empire (it just happened due to their incompetence).

Back then, you had to be a madman to think that Rome as a concept or in practice was worse than the alternative.  Today, you'd have to be an ignorant ideologically-confused cretin.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HinterWeltWell, I am not even that close to a history degree. However, the sources I have read all say Constantine converted on his deathbed and therefore was not a Christian during his life.

Not converted--baptised! But he professed his faith long before that in words & deeds. I mean, he personally attended the Council of Soandso and advised/regaled the bishops in details of doctrine, he wrote lots of "sermons" which he would deliver to his court and what not.

As for the general issue, also raised by Pundy: Short of some actual historical number-crunching (%age of mystery religion/Sol temples vs. %age of Olympian gods through 3rd and 4th centuries), which may or may not exist, and I'd honestly love to hear about it--other than that, what's at stake is a huge & interesting question:

What drives change in history?

Will there first be a "need," which will then be filled by an object/ideology/whatever designed to fill it? Or will something utterly new erupt onto the scene, and change the terms of the need equation altogether?

BTW... that also works for RPGs. Was there a need for D&D in 1974? Of course not. There was a need--but only from the moment it was published, not earlier.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityNot converted--baptised! But he professed his faith long before that in words & deeds. I mean, he personally attended the Council of Soandso and advised/regaled the bishops in details of doctrine, he wrote lots of "sermons" which he would deliver to his court and what not.

O.k. Pierce, I get you. A misunderstanding on my part. Yes, he did Christian works in his life. And yes, the practice was in place to "convert" or be baptized on your deathbed. So, I think it is just semantics.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAs for the general issue, also raised by Pundy: Short of some actual historical number-crunching (%age of mystery religion/Sol temples vs. %age of Olympian gods through 3rd and 4th centuries), which may or may not exist, and I'd honestly love to hear about it--other than that, what's at stake is a huge & interesting question:

What drives change in history?

Will there first be a "need," which will then be filled by an object/ideology/whatever designed to fill it? Or will something utterly new erupt onto the scene, and change the terms of the need equation altogether?

Again, need here is being interpreted differently by each of us, I believe. To me, need means there must be an interest coupled with an opportunity. A hundred years ago there was plenty of interest in oil but no real opportunity to exploit it. So, there was no need. Now, there is interest and opportunity.

I think most folks would say opportunity is equal to need and I can see that in some cases. This is not always the case though. There were plenty of religions that had opportunity to grow but there was no interest in what they offered. You could call interest by a number of things like public appeal or common elements.

To me, from my reading, Christianity offered what interested the Romans. It offered a general appeal of "You to can be saved and all you have to do is believe in me" kind of salvation and answers. Yes, there is more to that but I think that is the core of it.

Now, the question is, would another religion step into that role or would it end up be Christianity with a different name? Would it be several cults servign different parts of the Empire? Earth mother religions? They certainly had the basis of a common element, Mom always loves you and accepts you.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityBTW... that also works for RPGs. Was there a need for D&D in 1974? Of course not. There was a need--but only from the moment it was published, not earlier.

See, I believe there was a need. If there wasn't we would all be on Chess boards arguing opening gambits. The need is not always a conscious one. I do not think there were people walking around in the 60s saying "Gee, I really want to role-play!...whatever that is?". However, the elements were there. People want to be entertained and this was a creative way of doing it.

In the end, I think we are closer on these points that our words allows us to be.

Bill

Quote from: RPGPunditI think we're not quite getting you, dude.  

The Christians had a lot of stuff they respected about the Greco-Roman philosophers, you know.  They certainly didn't see the Roman empire as "Evil" as such; they did see it as degenerate and misguided, but you'll note that once they took over they weren't actually TRYING to dismantle the Roman empire (it just happened due to their incompetence).

Back then, you had to be a madman to think that Rome as a concept or in practice was worse than the alternative.  Today, you'd have to be an ignorant ideologically-confused cretin.

RPGPundit

If you read this:

http://personal2.stthomas.edu/gwschlabach/docs/city.htm

You will see that I adopted the Augustian viewpoint on the topic and extrapolated from there.  You will notice that you are both right and wrong in this case.  I think that Augustine at least would have approved of my projection (if he could possibly choke down the premise).   Other Christians perhaps would not.  Most, however would agree that had Christ died as a child the world would be doomed to fall into Satan's hands.  I'm pretty sure of that one.  I simply provided an Augustian based pattern by which that might have happened based on the premise presented, giving it a Christian spin because it is a Christian topic (Christ Jesus).  

For myself I simply think that the concept could make an interesting world setting.  If I go ahead with it I'd do it something like this:

The Fae (Fey) are semi-fallen angels who were caught midway between heaven and hell (which is one of the classical Christian theories about the Fey/Faerie), and so they form a kind of halfway house for mankind in their dire distress.  The Characters might start out by escaping "The (truly) Evil Empire", hooking up with the Fey, entering the OtherWorld (Tir Na Nog) and hiding out from Satan's forces while they plan for counter attacks and raids.

Of course you guys seem to have this predilication for attacking anything that doesn't immediately coincide with your viewpoints, making it somewhat unpleasant to try to contribute.   Oh well.   I'm really getting the feeling that this is not the friendly little forum I was told about.  I'm trying to state my views and thougths openly and I keep getting attacked as if I am The Enemy.  Its funny.  But not fun.

EDIT:  Oh, and to those who have been kind and helpful, thank you.  I do appreciate that.  But as it goes I think I'm going to fade from this Forum.   It is just a bit too unpleasant an atmosphere.  Maybe there's another place to go where people are quite so ... harsh?

- Mark

Quote from: VBWyrdeOf course you guys seem to have this predilication for attacking anything that doesn't immediately coincide with your viewpoints, making it somewhat unpleasant to try to contribute.   Oh well.   I'm really getting the feeling that this is not the friendly little forum I was told about.  I'm trying to state my views and thougths openly and I keep getting attacked as if I am The Enemy.  Its funny.  But not fun.

- Mark

Mark,
I cannot speak for others, but I mostly asked you to stop because you are not proposing alt history as a theology or fantasy setting. I was hoping to hear what people think would happen if the Christian institutions and faith were absent, not "Christianity is irrefutable and if Christ is not here then poof! the devil appears". I am trying to be reasonable and hope I am appearing as such. I just believe you are as off topic as if someone asked for help on the early Roman Catholic Church and someone told him that the One True Way was Buddhism.

Does that make sense or do you think your posts are on topic?

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltMark,
I cannot speak for others, but I mostly asked you to stop because you are not proposing alt history as a theology or fantasy setting. I was hoping to hear what people think would happen if the Christian institutions and faith were absent, not "Christianity is irrefutable and if Christ is not here then poof! the devil appears". I am trying to be reasonable and hope I am appearing as such. I just believe you are as off topic as if someone asked for help on the early Roman Catholic Church and someone told him that the One True Way was Buddhism.

Does that make sense or do you think your posts are on topic?

Thanks,
Bill

I was not understanding that from the original post.  But then maybe I am at fault.  I apologize.  I didn't get what you were driving at.  

EDIT:  

Quotebecause you are not proposing alt history as a theology or fantasy setting.

I guess this is the part that's confusing to me.  I thought my suggestion is exactly that, and alternate history and fantasy world setting.  So, I am confused.  But that's ok.  I think I simply do not understand the cultural norms in theRPGSite and so it's easy for me to mis-step.  Again, no offense intended.

- Mark

If Jesus wasn't around and Paul was looking for messiahs, he could do worse than John the Baptist. The Mandaeans chose the latter, for example.

Quote from: VBWyrdeI was not understanding that from the original post.  But then maybe I am at fault.  I apologize.  I didn't get what you were driving at.  

EDIT:  

I guess this is the part that's confusing to me.  I thought my suggestion is exactly that, and alternate history and fantasy world setting.  So, I am confused.  But that's ok.  I think I simply do not understand the cultural norms in theRPGSite and so it's easy for me to mis-step.  Again, no offense intended.

- Mark

No harm done. I mistyped though. What I meant was that you were proposing more of a fantasy/theological setting and I was hoping for an alt-history discussion. Personally, I think your idea for a setting has merit and would suggest you start another thread. I think you could get some good discussion based on a fantasy setting approach to the topic.

Thanks,
Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltNo harm done. I mistyped though. What I meant was that you were proposing more of a fantasy/theological setting and I was hoping for an alt-history discussion. Personally, I think your idea for a setting has merit and would suggest you start another thread. I think you could get some good discussion based on a fantasy setting approach to the topic.

Thanks,
Bill

In all fairness to VB, I thought his idea was cool too, and couldn't figure out why you, one of the cooler more open people here, reacted as you did.

so maybe the issue here is the difference/distinction you are drawing between alt-history and fantasy/theological setting.  I'm truly curious cause I saw VB's conjecture as just a different take on the subject; but I'm no expert on these things so I was confused.

Quote from: James J SkachIn all fairness to VB, I thought his idea was cool too, and couldn't figure out why you, one of the cooler more open people here, reacted as you did.

so maybe the issue here is the difference/distinction you are drawing between alt-history and fantasy/theological setting.  I'm truly curious cause I saw VB's conjecture as just a different take on the subject; but I'm no expert on these things so I was confused.

James,
Initially, I thought he was just crack-potting. If you can't see the possibility of that in his first post then you wont be able to understand why I asked him to stop.

Let me see if I can sum up. I was hoping to have a discussion about history, the effects of change, and his post is more about fantasy elements. Well, everyone seemed to be rolling with the history part and then pop! a fantasy/theological post that could easily be interpreted as "You bad people, you would be damned if not for our lord and savior". I was hoping to avoid that and discuss the effects of a powerful organization on the world not the bogey man and his faeries. That sounds hash but I am trying to draw a contrast.

Honestly, like I said, I think if you approach it as a fantasy setting it would be a great thread. Heck, I think a link back to this one would be a valuable source for that thread. However, I do not think the discussion of the rise of Satan is appropriate to a historical discussion except from a myth POV. Now, if you wanted to argue that a Satan figure would gain prominence, well, I think you would be wrong because Satan with out Christ is like milk with out cookies.

I am only one person in the thread though, I could be so wrong and everyone would rather talk about that in this thread.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltHonestly, like I said, I think if you approach it as a fantasy setting it would be a great thread. Heck, I think a link back to this one would be a valuable source for that thread. However, I do not think the discussion of the rise of Satan is appropriate to a historical discussion except from a myth POV. Now, if you wanted to argue that a Satan figure would gain prominence, well, I think you would be wrong because Satan with out Christ is like milk with out cookies.

Yeah, I think I just took it as Satan was the "myth" behind an evil cult done sprung up in the absence of Christ.  People were looking for something - and they got something they didn't bargain for.

Which I can totally see, now, after your explanations (even before this last one) as to how that could be seen the way you did - that's all.

Quote from: HinterWeltI am only one person in the thread though, I could be so wrong and everyone would rather talk about that in this thread.

No, I think your idea of two threads is good.  It's just confusing because the default assumption inherent in this thread is Jesus' Godhood as myth - which is perfectly cool with me, but I could see someone looking at it differently.

Quote from: HinterWeltJames,
Initially, I thought he was just crack-potting. If you can't see the possibility of that in his first post then you wont be able to understand why I asked him to stop.

Let me see if I can sum up. I was hoping to have a discussion about history, the effects of change, and his post is more about fantasy elements. Well, everyone seemed to be rolling with the history part and then pop! a fantasy/theological post that could easily be interpreted as "You bad people, you would be damned if not for our lord and savior". I was hoping to avoid that and discuss the effects of a powerful organization on the world not the bogey man and his faeries. That sounds hash but I am trying to draw a contrast.

Honestly, like I said, I think if you approach it as a fantasy setting it would be a great thread. Heck, I think a link back to this one would be a valuable source for that thread. However, I do not think the discussion of the rise of Satan is appropriate to a historical discussion except from a myth POV. Now, if you wanted to argue that a Satan figure would gain prominence, well, I think you would be wrong because Satan with out Christ is like milk with out cookies.

I am only one person in the thread though, I could be so wrong and everyone would rather talk about that in this thread.

Bill

Yeah, I can see where you're coming from now.  As for the thread I think I'm content to stuff this one in my back pocket for now.  I seriously think this is an interesting idea and I'm going to spend a little more time putting the concept together before I post more about it.   The Fae aspect is one thing, but there are all of the other historical implications as well.  I really like the alternate history ideas, and drummed up something a while back about a What If the Vatican had forseen scientific advancement as something that they needed to control instead of surpress... and that one turned out to be really interesting too.  I am thinking that I'm going to create a setting between two parallel universes that compare both of these ideas with the players criss crossing between them, through Tir Na Nog.   That would be sufficiently bizzare and fascinating and thought provoking for my game.  Anyway, thanks for the seed idea.   Very cool.

Please go ahead and continue the thread without me.  I'm going to be wracking my brains to put this together.  Thanks.  And sorry for the confusion.

- Mark

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIf Jesus wasn't around and Paul was looking for messiahs, he could do worse than John the Baptist. The Mandaeans chose the latter, for example.

Yes, I thought of that; and its certainly a possibility, however the stricter and more evident asceticism of John the Baptist's belief system as compared to Jesus' might not have made it as easy to convert into a Pauline "gentile" model.

RPGPundit