Some well-made movie had the line : "The truth doesn't matter , they'll believe the legend. "


 Anyone ever read the Michael Moorcock SF novel "Behold the Man" ?
Many of the early christianity issue and birth pangs are discussed indirectky in there.

- Ed C.

Somewhere along this interesting thread, one sub-argument/question got lost:

At the time of the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, how was Christianity represented among the Legionaries? And, maybe related to that, how many Germanic and other non-Italo-Greacan troops were among them?

Was there a correlation between "Barbarian" Legionaries and christianity at that point in time?

Christianity already had made the shift from pure pacifism to allow legionaries into the faith. Maybe the impact of that shift within Christianity has had far wider consequences than much of what has been talked herein so far?

QuoteWould we still have a monotheistic set of religions?

Christianity was NOT the first monotheistic religion therefore Judaism would still survive.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;500327Christianity was NOT the first monotheistic religion therefore Judaism would still survive.

Yeah, as an obscure, minor religion that doesn't proselytize, doesn't spread, and doesn't even have a claim on being the cultural ancestor of the (alternate history) world's single greatest religion.


Anyway, another question: it's often said that polytheistic religions are inherently more tolerant and accepting of other religions than monotheistic ones (duh). How would the age of discovery and the eventual founding of overseas Empires have gone without Christianity? Would White Man have been any less of a jerk?

QuoteAnyway, another question: it's often said that polytheistic religions are inherently more tolerant and accepting of other religions than monotheistic ones (duh). How would the age of discovery and the eventual founding of overseas Empires have gone without Christianity? Would White Man have been any less of a jerk?

The tolerance of polytheistic religions is best described by the catholic missionaries slaughtered by pagans - saint Wojciech for example, if anything. Romans were tolerant of religions as long as they weren't trying to spread dissent in the Empire - that's why druids were purged in Britain (that, and human sacrifice).

As for Christianity's appeal in Rome - Pundit somewhat got it right. It was a religion beloved by slaves, as it abolished slavery. It's not rocket science. That's why it spread mostly in the "novau riche" (sp?) parts of Roman social structure.

If I remember correctly, Constantine the Great shifted to Christianity mostly because of a supposed "sign from God" during the battle of Milvian Bridge, in form of a comet, and he still only did that on a deathbed.

The discussion about Constantine had reached a much higher level already, Rincewind, did you read the thread?

As to my earlier remark, I just checked it and C.'s army at the Milvian bridge consisted mostly of Britons and other Barbarians. If anybody knows how farspread christianity was among Barbarians at that time, I would be interested to find out.

Quote from: Settembrini;500361The discussion about Constantine had reached a much higher level already, Rincewind, did you read the thread?

As to my earlier remark, I just checked it and C.'s army at the Milvian bridge consisted mostly of Britons and other Barbarians. If anybody knows how farspread christianity was among Barbarians at that time, I would be interested to find out.

Oh I suspected that I'd not say anything especially new on topic of Constantine - just wanted not to appear like I am sniping that one statement like some Christianity defender .

I'd say that the fact that Constantine was (supposedly) awaiting a sign from Christian God, suggests that there was a fair number of Christians in his army - otherwise, wouldn't he rather look to pagan gods, the ones that his troops believed in, and whose intervention'd certainly work well for morale of the army?

Christianity could certainly take a stronghold amongst Britons, since their native faith was pretty much crushed because of it's anti - Roman sentiment.

What I appreciate about this forum is that this thread has remained fairly civil (and intellectual) instead of devolving into a flamewar about Christianity ruining society.

It has been a while since I've read anything on the subject but seem to remember Ramsay MacMullen"'s christianization of the Roman Empire being pretty illuminating. Definitely recommend to those interested in (or debating on) the subject.

Quote from: Premier;500353Yeah, as an obscure, minor religion that doesn't proselytize, doesn't spread, and doesn't even have a claim on being the cultural ancestor of the (alternate history) world's single greatest religion.

That was never the intention of Judaism though unlike other large religions who want more converts and the like.  Judaism is not minor either but then again, it is your personal opinion.

It's point of scholarly contention as to whether or not ancient Jews proselytized. They may well have. It's not at all safe to assume that what is presently true has always been so. That said, minor is certainly the case, and often persecuted. Judaism might fared better through the ages if Christianity had not been so powerful, but this is hard to say with any certainty.

Christianity had few certain strong advantages over Judaism even not just in spiritual matters.

For example, abandoning circumcision and wear requirements, such as not cutting the hair etc. etc by Fathers of Church.

Quote from: Rincewind1;500398Christianity had few certain strong advantages over Judaism even not just in spiritual matters.

For example, abandoning circumcision and wear requirements, such as not cutting the hair etc. etc by Fathers of Church.

Why are those advantages???

They are certainly advantages in terms of attracting converts.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;500401Why are those advantages???

1) Harder to identify the members of the religion, therefore making persecution harder.
2) There's no ban on any particular kind of food etc. etc, which makes following the principles of the religion simpler.
3) I really think that if you had a choice between circumcision and not, the choice is rather not that hard. I, for one, like my turtleneck.