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Author Topic: Alignment in SPAAAACE!  (Read 2641 times)

Jamfke

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Alignment in SPAAAACE!
« on: April 24, 2020, 01:33:48 AM »
I'm working on a design for a sci-fi OSR game and I'm wondering if alignment rules are that necessary. I can see them being useful in fantasy games with deities and the like being an ever present factor for the characters, but sci-fi doesn't dip into that pond so much. However, with dark and light themes being a thing (à la Star Wars) I can see where it can come in handy for gauging a character's allegiances.

Do you guys/gals use alignment that often during a session?
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S'mon

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Alignment in SPAAAACE!
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2020, 04:03:30 AM »
When I ran White Star, which has L-N-C alignment, I ignored it. I don't think you need it.

Spinachcat

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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2020, 04:16:20 AM »
I run Mechanoids and Rifts Phase World, both are by Palladium and use their alignment system. I've found no unusual problems. Players who like alignment, generally continue liking alignment and vice versa.

I've ported Law / Neutral / Chaos into Gamma World with no concern. It's basically Law = pro-civilization; Neutral = selfish; Chaos = anti-civilization. Lawfuls seek to rebuild the world and support growth of villages and towns. Neutrals like their own village or town, but might not care about others. Chaotics like the apocalypse, especially the freedom from civilization.

It's led to interesting roleplay. The Lawfuls can't easily justify destroying a growing village of bandits, even though they are scum because they are creating order out of chaos. The Neutrals are happy to wipe them out to protect the settlements who hired them, even if those settlements are stagnant dead ends. The Chaotics are happy to raid the raiders and take their stuff.

Could you have all that without alignments? Of course, but FOR ME, I find alignment a good, easy and reliable shortcut to fire up conflicts at the table.

nDervish

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Alignment in SPAAAACE!
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2020, 05:29:48 AM »
Personally, I'm not a fan of D&D-style alignment, regardless of genre, but I do try to get PCs tied in to factions, religions, national loyalties, etc., which is also an effective way to generate interesting conflict and translates well into SF or other genres where absolute morality or clashes of cosmic powers aren't necessarily a thing.

Of course, the downside of this is that it's very campaign/setting-specific.  If you don't know what the Cult of Gajo-Eyia teaches, or the Denkhra people's relations with their neighbors, then "this character is a Denhkar acolyte of Gajo-Eyia" means next-to-nothing to you, while "this character is Chaotic Good" is understood clearly, at least in a broad sense, even to someone unfamiliar with the setting.

Jamfke

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« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2020, 12:23:35 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;1127722
When I ran White Star, which has L-N-C alignment, I ignored it. I don't think you need it.
I was usually the same way with D&D back in the day. The only time I ever really paid attention to alignment then was if someone wanted to play a Paladin, and then only if they were planning to do something seriously off kilter with that character's ideals.
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Vidgrip

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Alignment in SPAAAACE!
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2020, 12:28:42 PM »
I've never run or played in a sci-fi game with alignment, but I can see a possible advantage to doing so.  I'm currently in a game that has no alignment and there was insufficient discussion about what the party would be doing during our session zero.  Now it is a bit of a mess because some want to be heroes and others cut-throats.  Of course a better session zero would have avoided this, but had we chosen an alignment at character creation, it would have certainly raised a red flag and prompted a discussion.
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Jamfke

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« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2020, 01:20:16 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127725
I run Mechanoids and Rifts Phase World, both are by Palladium and use their alignment system. I've found no unusual problems. Players who like alignment, generally continue liking alignment and vice versa.

I've ported Law / Neutral / Chaos into Gamma World with no concern. It's basically Law = pro-civilization; Neutral = selfish; Chaos = anti-civilization. Lawfuls seek to rebuild the world and support growth of villages and towns. Neutrals like their own village or town, but might not care about others. Chaotics like the apocalypse, especially the freedom from civilization.

It's led to interesting roleplay. The Lawfuls can't easily justify destroying a growing village of bandits, even though they are scum because they are creating order out of chaos. The Neutrals are happy to wipe them out to protect the settlements who hired them, even if those settlements are stagnant dead ends. The Chaotics are happy to raid the raiders and take their stuff.

Could you have all that without alignments? Of course, but FOR ME, I find alignment a good, easy and reliable shortcut to fire up conflicts at the table.

I can see that working well in most situations, especially in a Gamma World setting.

Quote from: nDervish;1127732
Personally, I'm not a fan of D&D-style alignment, regardless of genre, but I do try to get PCs tied in to factions, religions, national loyalties, etc., which is also an effective way to generate interesting conflict and translates well into SF or other genres where absolute morality or clashes of cosmic powers aren't necessarily a thing.

Of course, the downside of this is that it's very campaign/setting-specific.  If you don't know what the Cult of Gajo-Eyia teaches, or the Denkhra people's relations with their neighbors, then "this character is a Denhkar acolyte of Gajo-Eyia" means next-to-nothing to you, while "this character is Chaotic Good" is understood clearly, at least in a broad sense, even to someone unfamiliar with the setting.

I do have several factions (governments/criminal organizations and such), but even within something like that there can be some good people who just get swept up in the crowd-think and make bad decisions. I can see how just having factions as a determining factor of intentions could get confusing without explanation.

Quote from: Vidgrip;1127772
I've never run or played in a sci-fi game with alignment, but I can see a possible advantage to doing so.  I'm currently in a game that has no alignment and there was insufficient discussion about what the party would be doing during our session zero.  Now it is a bit of a mess because some want to be heroes and others cut-throats.  Of course a better session zero would have avoided this, but had we chosen an alignment at character creation, it would have certainly raised a red flag and prompted a discussion.

Yeah, going in would be a good time to know what your "business associates" have in mind.

Thinking more on this, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to include the alignments in the game and let the players decide to use them or not. I don't think I'll spend five pages discussing them in the rules like in the 2E DMG, but maybe a page or two!
Thanks,
James F Keck
Keck Publishing
4C or Not 4C? The real question is why not 4C Expanded? PWYW now at DriveThruRPG

jhkim

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Alignment in SPAAAACE!
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2020, 02:37:48 PM »
Quote from: Jamfke;1127781
Thinking more on this, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to include the alignments in the game and let the players decide to use them or not. I don't think I'll spend five pages discussing them in the rules like in the 2E DMG, but maybe a page or two!

Personally, I'd prefer not to have pages of rules included just because. I think that contributes to how systems become bloated tomes. If alignment isn't baked into the system elsewhere, then I'd prefer to just leave it off. People who really like alignment can easily add it in.

VisionStorm

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Alignment in SPAAAACE!
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2020, 03:21:44 PM »
I haven't even paid attention to alignment in D&D in decades. Generally I find alignment to be restrictive, unhelpful, contradictory and more likely to lead to out of character arguments that detract from play than actual RP. It's pretty much the opposite of what the books have painstakingly tried convince us for decades--a straightjacket, not a tool for RP. And the evidence of that is in every rule that penalizes characters (usually of specific classes) for not following their alignment "correctly", which is an inherently subjective task, and every spell that's alignment specific, and every magic item that targets specific alignment as well. For something that's just a "RP tool" there seem to be loads of mechanics baked around enforcing it.

Even when you consider players who personally "like" alignment because it gives them inspiration the reality remains that any attempt to enforce alignment beyond just "I personally wanna use it cuz it helps focus my RP" leads to shallow RP at best and pointless out-of-character squabbles about WTF exactly X or Y alignment "means" at worst. My policy when it comes to alignment has become the same as for religion--if you wanna believe in this stuff do it in your own time (for your own RP) but don't expect anyone else to subscribe to it. I also don't include any alignment-specific spell or magic items, or convert them to work specifically against infernal or celestial beings instead.

Bren

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Alignment in SPAAAACE!
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2020, 08:34:25 PM »
No. Never. At best, it barely works in D&D. I've never used it in anything else and have never, ever missed it. And I really don't want it in my Sci-Fi.
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 05:47:02 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;1127722
When I ran White Star, which has L-N-C alignment, I ignored it. I don't think you need it.


Did White Star do anything interesting or sci-fi specific with the L/N/C alignment, or was it just a D&D-ish cut and paste?

S'mon

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« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2020, 06:15:01 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127891
Did White Star do anything interesting or sci-fi specific with the L/N/C alignment, or was it just a D&D-ish cut and paste?

Lawful Star Knights (Jedi) vs Chaotic Void Knights (Sith). It makes more sense in a Star Wars based universe than in most D&D fantasy!

RPGPundit

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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2020, 11:18:42 PM »
I use the L/N/C alignments. In my upcoming Star Adventurer game, alignment is mostly to guide roleplaying but it has some effects on things like psychic powers or some reaction-based special abilities (like how a certain subclass could have a +1 bonus to reaction rolls with people of the same alignment).
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Spinachcat

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« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2020, 04:28:19 AM »
Quote from: S'mon;1127924
Lawful Star Knights (Jedi) vs Chaotic Void Knights (Sith). It makes more sense in a Star Wars based universe than in most D&D fantasy!

Did they just make Lawful = Good and Chaos = Evil?

S'mon

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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2020, 07:47:37 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1128119
Did they just make Lawful = Good and Chaos = Evil?

Yes, in White Star.