Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 03:25:11 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/17mz4v5/subreddit_rule_changes_blacklisted_creators/

On the one hand, it's primarily this general subreddit. But on the other, it's a pretty big subreddit for rpgs more generally, and part of a larger trend. Apparently it's not just him but any "blacklisted creator" who cannot be discussed from here on in. Zak S is another one, and currently I think the list is just those two. But in theory the mods are the ones who arbitrarily decide from here on in who gets blacklisted and must not be named within an rpg context.

IDK, maybe this isn't really super newsworthy, or should be in the political subforum. That said, I figure that this could be argued in a sense emblematic of prior corporate and anti-free-speech  trends within rpgs, TTRPGs, and the hobby more broadly.

If you cared to read the post that you linked you should have found this at line 6 (yes, 6 full lines of text to read, what a shame):

Quote
Furthermore, the mod team here has seen evidence of vote manipulation and collusion from the ACKS discord channel to promote ACKS here beyond what is permitted by reddit.

That's the reason for banning discussions on Macris' works, not because r/rpg is "anti-free-speech" or "woke": there was direct evidence of violation of reddit's rules, and in these cases a mod team must act or reddit will act for them (usually by closing the sub). Same thing for r/osr: they were brigaded.

Quote from: pawsplay on December 01, 2023, 12:23:23 AM
I mean, I'm not a fan of broad topic bans. But to all the people saying, what's wrong with Macris, I'm like, are you for real? He's a Milo guy.

I don't give a fuck.

Maybe it's because I've had some personal interactions with him and he seemed pretty solid to me, but mostly because he makes good products.

Reddit is a hellhole. In other news, water is wet.

This sort of thing is a good example of how deeply, reflexively authoritarian these people are.  They don't like this guy.  They don't like people he has associated with.  What's their immediate response?  To not talk about them?  To not buy his products or talk about him.  No.  Their immediate response is to ban discussion of him or his products by anyone.  Their immediate response is authoritarian in nature.  I don't like this therefore no one can discuss it at all.  Their response to a lot of things is authoritarian in nature.   

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 30, 2023, 06:08:33 PM
What is the leftards issue with ACKS?

They hate Macris, and will never not.

Honestly, the problem isn't with having haters, it is with such haters having pushed themselves into positions of power.  Like the idea that /r/rpg and /r/osr are helping their userbase by banning you for mentioning anything Autarch is obviously crap, and leading up to the ban a bunch of socialist-subreddit-bros would swarm on in and shit all over the place.  Instead of those guys being banned for shitting everywhere, they got everything they wanted instantly- meaning that this was probably the point from the start.

Anyway, unlike a lot of bad reddit ideas, this one is currently localized to a few groups of moderators.  There's a /r/theosr that was made back when they were trying to demonize everyone whose games had evil races, and that allows discussion of Autaurch- but of course, there's very little traffic there by comparison.  Further, it looks like much of the discussion got sponged into some discord (that was also advertised here), which is just fine if you want stuff on Discord but it does mean that there's almost no presence on more open forums.

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 03:27:50 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 03:25:11 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/17mz4v5/subreddit_rule_changes_blacklisted_creators/

On the one hand, it's primarily this general subreddit. But on the other, it's a pretty big subreddit for rpgs more generally, and part of a larger trend. Apparently it's not just him but any "blacklisted creator" who cannot be discussed from here on in. Zak S is another one, and currently I think the list is just those two. But in theory the mods are the ones who arbitrarily decide from here on in who gets blacklisted and must not be named within an rpg context.

IDK, maybe this isn't really super newsworthy, or should be in the political subforum. That said, I figure that this could be argued in a sense emblematic of prior corporate and anti-free-speech  trends within rpgs, TTRPGs, and the hobby more broadly.

If you cared to read the post that you linked you should have found this at line 6 (yes, 6 full lines of text to read, what a shame):

Quote
Furthermore, the mod team here has seen evidence of vote manipulation and collusion from the ACKS discord channel to promote ACKS here beyond what is permitted by reddit.

That's the reason for banning discussions on Macris' works, not because r/rpg is "anti-free-speech" or "woke": there was direct evidence of violation of reddit's rules, and in these cases a mod team must act or reddit will act for them (usually by closing the sub). Same thing for r/osr: they were brigaded.

Yeah, okay, so ban the users doing the brigading.

Banning all discussion of a creator and his past and future work is something else.

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 03:27:50 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 03:25:11 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/17mz4v5/subreddit_rule_changes_blacklisted_creators/

On the one hand, it's primarily this general subreddit. But on the other, it's a pretty big subreddit for rpgs more generally, and part of a larger trend. Apparently it's not just him but any "blacklisted creator" who cannot be discussed from here on in. Zak S is another one, and currently I think the list is just those two. But in theory the mods are the ones who arbitrarily decide from here on in who gets blacklisted and must not be named within an rpg context.

IDK, maybe this isn't really super newsworthy, or should be in the political subforum. That said, I figure that this could be argued in a sense emblematic of prior corporate and anti-free-speech  trends within rpgs, TTRPGs, and the hobby more broadly.

If you cared to read the post that you linked you should have found this at line 6 (yes, 6 full lines of text to read, what a shame):

Quote
Furthermore, the mod team here has seen evidence of vote manipulation and collusion from the ACKS discord channel to promote ACKS here beyond what is permitted by reddit.

That's the reason for banning discussions on Macris' works, not because r/rpg is "anti-free-speech" or "woke": there was direct evidence of violation of reddit's rules, and in these cases a mod team must act or reddit will act for them (usually by closing the sub). Same thing for r/osr: they were brigaded.

Somehow his manipulation of the gamification system of Reddit is bad and all the other people doing it to aren't?  This smacks deeply of hypocrisy and double standards for enforcement.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
Yeah, okay, so ban the users doing the brigading.

Banning all discussion of a creator and his past and future work is something else.

The only working strategy (in an effectively anonymous space like reddit) for blocking a massive influx of bad faith actors that try to game the system is blocking the arguments they make, not the users.

Same thing here: talking of politics outside the scope of gaming is forbidden. It's a rule meant to avoid bad faith discussions from the grounds up.

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 10:19:32 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
Yeah, okay, so ban the users doing the brigading.

Banning all discussion of a creator and his past and future work is something else.

The only working strategy (in an effectively anonymous space like reddit) for blocking a massive influx of bad faith actors that try to game the system is blocking the arguments they make, not the users.

Same thing here: talking of politics outside the scope of gaming is forbidden. It's a rule meant to avoid bad faith discussions from the grounds up.

I don't agree but for sake of argument let's say I agree. Like you say: Block the arguments, it's the only way!

New Post: Hey does anyone know of any cool custom character sheets for ACKS?

[This post has been deleted]

They didn't ban users or arguments - they forbid all mention of the guy and his work.

The no-politics rule here is not personal. It applies to everyone. That's an essential and obvious difference.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 10:39:32 AM

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 10:19:32 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
Yeah, okay, so ban the users doing the brigading.

Banning all discussion of a creator and his past and future work is something else.

The only working strategy (in an effectively anonymous space like reddit) for blocking a massive influx of bad faith actors that try to game the system is blocking the arguments they make, not the users.

Same thing here: talking of politics outside the scope of gaming is forbidden. It's a rule meant to avoid bad faith discussions from the grounds up.

I don't agree but for sake of argument let's say I agree. Like you say: Block the arguments, it's the only way!

New Post: Hey does anyone know of any cool custom character sheets for ACKS?

[This post has been deleted]

They didn't ban users or arguments - they forbid all mention of the guy and his work.

The no-politics rule here is not personal. It applies to everyone. That's an essential and obvious difference.

I find this whining weirdly amusing, keep on please.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 10:39:32 AM

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 10:19:32 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
Yeah, okay, so ban the users doing the brigading.

Banning all discussion of a creator and his past and future work is something else.

The only working strategy (in an effectively anonymous space like reddit) for blocking a massive influx of bad faith actors that try to game the system is blocking the arguments they make, not the users.

Same thing here: talking of politics outside the scope of gaming is forbidden. It's a rule meant to avoid bad faith discussions from the grounds up.

I don't agree but for sake of argument let's say I agree. Like you say: Block the arguments, it's the only way!

New Post: Hey does anyone know of any cool custom character sheets for ACKS?

[This post has been deleted]

They didn't ban users or arguments - they forbid all mention of the guy and his work.

The no-politics rule here is not personal. It applies to everyone. That's an essential and obvious difference.

More specifically, it's about keeping the gaming thread on the topic of gaming. You can discuss how politics affects gaming to your heart's content on the gaming board. For politics unrelated to gaming there's a separate board where the only requirement is "Pundit must find it interesting or it will be locked."

The only thing 100% across the board banned are promotion of antisemitism or fascism; which are pretty clearly defined and pretty easy to discern when someone is espousing them.

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 11:00:48 AM
I find this whining weirdly amusing, keep on please.

Sure thing buddy. It's odd that you're concerned about bad faith actors when you are one. There's a word for that.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 11:10:13 AM

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 11:00:48 AM
I find this whining weirdly amusing, keep on please.

Sure thing buddy. It's odd that you're concerned about bad faith actors when you are one. There's a word for that.

Never said that I'm concerned, I've said that the only way to block them (especially on reddit) is to block the topics that attract them.
I also asked to keep on whining about violated freeze peach or whatever you think happened on r/rpg, but you disappointed me...

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 11:47:20 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 01, 2023, 11:10:13 AM

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 11:00:48 AM
I find this whining weirdly amusing, keep on please.

Sure thing buddy. It's odd that you're concerned about bad faith actors when you are one. There's a word for that.

Never said that I'm concerned, I've said that the only way to block them (especially on reddit) is to block the topics that attract them.
I also asked to keep on whining about violated freeze peach or whatever you think happened on r/rpg, but you disappointed me...

So you're not concerned with bad faith actors. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote from: NotFromAroundHere on December 01, 2023, 03:27:50 AM

Quote from: KindaMeh on November 30, 2023, 03:25:11 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/17mz4v5/subreddit_rule_changes_blacklisted_creators/

On the one hand, it's primarily this general subreddit. But on the other, it's a pretty big subreddit for rpgs more generally, and part of a larger trend. Apparently it's not just him but any "blacklisted creator" who cannot be discussed from here on in. Zak S is another one, and currently I think the list is just those two. But in theory the mods are the ones who arbitrarily decide from here on in who gets blacklisted and must not be named within an rpg context.

IDK, maybe this isn't really super newsworthy, or should be in the political subforum. That said, I figure that this could be argued in a sense emblematic of prior corporate and anti-free-speech  trends within rpgs, TTRPGs, and the hobby more broadly.

If you cared to read the post that you linked you should have found this at line 6 (yes, 6 full lines of text to read, what a shame):

Quote
Furthermore, the mod team here has seen evidence of vote manipulation and collusion from the ACKS discord channel to promote ACKS here beyond what is permitted by reddit.

I actually did read through the whole thing. As well as some of the actual threads in question. I didn't really think to go into it, because anything that results in the creation of a blacklisted creators list and a unique banning of products and discussion content across multiple major subreddits seems sketchy to me in and of itself, but I think their ruling reasoning was pretty damn sketchy as well.

For context, I do know that brigading is defined roughly as follows: "A term that originated on Reddit, Brigading is when a group of users, generally outsiders to the targeted subreddit, "invade" a specific subreddit and flood it with downvotes in order to damage karma dynamics on the targeted sub; spam the sub with posts and comments to further their own agenda; or perform other coordinated abusive behaviour such as insulting or harassing the subreddit's users in order to troll, manipulate, or interfere with the targeted community." In this instance it was seemingly stated that self-promotion and the bolded part were the alleged primary issues at hand. (For voting manipulation, neither multiple accounts nor soliciting seemed in play. At best you could maybe argue group voting in that via Discord or non-reddit sites one would be solicited to upvote ACKS2 stuff. They don't appear to have been very successful if so, since by far the most negative comments about Macris seem to have done the best vote-wise, and those comments defending him seem mostly low count by comparison.) On which note, I don't see how promoting the works of others because you're a fan counts as self-promotion. This in turn causes me to be wary of their analysis in and of itself, especially given the context that the other infraction was apparently using posts or comments to make an argument for a game they must have genuinely liked in order to bother. Likewise, the actual conversations I saw honestly had more people and posts that hated or disliked Macris than supporters, so I don't see how they could have been spamming. Most threads turned into an excuse to hate on that guy, all told. At best, some of the people posting may have previously coordinated via discord servers or the like to spread kickstarter news in relevant forums and internet locations, which seems relatively reasonable on my end. I saw no solid evidence presented of them being bad faith actors, and I think rystrasmi makes good points about how that kind of thing would be handled properly in a different manner even if it were a genuine thing. (Not least because the way it went down ended such that someone who wasn't even accused of being one of the posters got banned as a discussion topic, alongside all his games. Likewise, collective punishment was enacted on anyone who likes any of his games, rather than just those who posted. And the topic of ACKS2 being launched was generalized to canceling the person and all his games, and paving the way for other creators and their products to be similarly canceled via the creation of a blacklisted [their term, not mine] creators rule.)

Also, if all that was really so "bad" Reddit would have stepped in (which I doubt, because there apparently do exist one or more subforums like r/theosr where they didn't go for that approach and everything was fine), and the subforums were scared of Reddit's intervention, but it doesn't give 2 shits about the current fallout... I think that would say more about the company and corporate censorship than anything else.