Quote from: Bunch;865177Is it fair to say ACKS character generation is frontloaded?  What little I've seen of the system is from the Player Companion regarding custom classes.  I do like frontloaded character creation.

For the most part, yes.

At the class-creation level, it generally defaults to you getting everything at level 1 (with some things improving over time and other things not improving), but there are rules for "trade off an ability at level 1 for an ability at level (7-N) and another ability at level (7+N)", etc.  Personally, though, I tend to feel that it's not a worthwhile tradeoff, since I rarely see characters above level 3-4 in most D&Dish systems.  Its value in your campaigns may vary.

At the character-creation level, picking your class defines the bulk of how your character will develop mechanically - there's no multiclassing, skill points to spend every level, etc. - but you do get to choose one new general proficiency at levels 5, 9, and 13, and one class proficiency every 3, 4, or 6 levels (depending on your class), so there's still a small allowance for tweaking the character's mechanical path after character creation.

Quote from: nDervish;865195For the most part, yes.

At the class-creation level, it generally defaults to you getting everything at level 1 (with some things improving over time and other things not improving), but there are rules for "trade off an ability at level 1 for an ability at level (7-N) and another ability at level (7+N)", etc.  Personally, though, I tend to feel that it's not a worthwhile tradeoff, since I rarely see characters above level 3-4 in most D&Dish systems.  Its value in your campaigns may vary.

At the character-creation level, picking your class defines the bulk of how your character will develop mechanically - there's no multiclassing, skill points to spend every level, etc. - but you do get to choose one new general proficiency at levels 5, 9, and 13, and one class proficiency every 3, 4, or 6 levels (depending on your class), so there's still a small allowance for tweaking the character's mechanical path after character creation.

Thats a different version of frontloaded thatn what i was going after.  I'm referring to where all your major class choices are made when you're first level.   This would be contrasted with say d&d 3.x where every level you pull out all the books and see what you want now.  For the pbp games I'm currently playing frontloaded design seems to mke life easier.  
In both systems spellcasters still have some backloading issues.

Yes, character creation is front loaded. That's because you're supposed to spend your higher levels focusing on domain creation.

Can't say my group had any issues with Attack Throws whatsoever. We worked out everyone's basic melee and missile Throws, and had them recorded against specific weapons if they had anything like Fighting Styles that augmented them.

Then I told them the AC of whomever they were attacking, and they added it to their Throw.

Quote from: Bunch;865231Thats a different version of frontloaded thatn what i was going after.  I'm referring to where all your major class choices are made when you're first level.   This would be contrasted with say d&d 3.x where every level you pull out all the books and see what you want now.  For the pbp games I'm currently playing frontloaded design seems to mke life easier.  
In both systems spellcasters still have some backloading issues.

OK, then that sounds like you were talking about what I referred to as "the character-creation level": You pick your class when you create the character, and that defines the bulk of your future mechanical development, with the exception of picking a new proficiency once every few levels.  The majority of levels are just "roll additional HP and update to-hit/save numbers" with no choices to be made.

Quote from: aspiringlich;865186Exactly what I said: 10 is what makes the math work. But for someone just learning the game who has no prior assumptions, the notion that 10 is "bad" isn't at all obvious. However, to that same person, "having an armor class of zero" sounds bad, because it sounds like you have zero protection, and in ACKS, that's just how it is.

ah ok i under stand you now sorry i miss under stood you

Quote from: S'mon;865191It's 55% - 11 in 20. Rolls of 1-9 miss (45%), rolls of 10-20 hit (55%).

This is possibly why AD&D had base AC 10 and base THAC0 21 - gives 50% to hit.  Fighters & Clerics had base THAC0 20 giving them 55% base to hit. Classic D&D has base AC 9 but everyone except Normal Men gets THAC0 19 or better, hitting 55%.

ah sorry thanks for catching my mistake

Quote from: Christopher Brady;864847Can you elaborate on this?

It's been described elsewhere on this thread already; I mentioned it in my review of ACKS, which is found in the Reviews section of this forum.  It just seems counter-intuitive to me, without making anything particularly simpler. I guess it works for Macris or whoever designed it, but it didn't appeal to me.

Well, cool.  I'll save my pennies then.

Quote from: Omega;865187Depends on the class. Most are BECMI/Pedia analogs.

This is pretty heavily dependant on interpretation. Five of the twelve classes in the core book have no equivalent in the BECMI books or the Rules Cyclopedia. Only one of the nineteen (19!) classes in the Player's Companion comes up in BECMI or the Rules Cyclopedia (the Mystic, broadly equivalent, though not identical, to the Mystic in the Master set and reprinted in the Rules Cyclopedia), with one other (the Shaman) vaguely similar (but not really) if you view it in a mirror while squinting.

Quote from: Omega;865187They get all their abilities at level 1 and then those abilities improve as they level up. None of the "Get new widgit every level".

The campaign classes though tend to have some widgets at levels X-Y-Z. The Bard for example gets Read Languages at level 4, Blade dancer gets potion and scroll crafting at 5. and so on.

This isn't really true either. Most Classes get certain fixed abilities at Levels 5, 9, and sometimes 11. For example, Fighters get a Morale bonus to Hirelings they personally lead at Level 5, and Mercenaries flock to their banner at Level 9. Mages can research spells, scribe scrolls, and brew potions at Level 5, gain apprentices and can craft wands, rings, and weapons at Level 9, and can create constructs and magical cross-breeds at Level 11. Some Classes (like the Thief mentioned above) have a few more abilities scattered over their progression.

Quote from: Ddogwood;865317Yes, character creation is front loaded. That's because you're supposed to spend your higher levels focusing on domain creation.

This isn't particularly the case. ACKS has a great domain system, but it doesn't assume the PCs pursue that.

Quote from: aspiringlich;865137I don't see what's so difficult about this.

Quote from: Kiero;865369Can't say my group had any issues with Attack Throws whatsoever. We worked out everyone's basic melee and missile Throws, and had them recorded against specific weapons if they had anything like Fighting Styles that augmented them.

Then I told them the AC of whomever they were attacking, and they added it to their Throw.

This was my experience as well. My own players are currently handling it in different ways each to their own tastes, which is simple since most of the modifiers are largely static. I'm actually having difficulty believing the amount of trouble with the mechanic being described, considering our group's lack of difficulty. Clearly that's not everyone's experience.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;865857Well, cool.  I'll save my pennies then.

I think that's a shame, if so. Generally, people's complaint here seems to revolve around Attack Throws. That's a single mechanic out of the entire game, and as has been explained, the math is simple enough to flip it around into whatever format you prefer from any version of D&D, if it rankles. There's more than enough other material in ACKS that makes the game rock in actual play that it's still more than worth it. A lot of the discussion here strikes me a bit like not buying a house you like because you dislike the paint in one of rooms.

Quote from: Bobloblah;865874I think that's a shame, if so. Generally, people's complaint here seems to revolve around Attack Throws. That's a single mechanic out of the entire game, and as has been explained, the math is simple enough to flip it around into whatever format you prefer from any version of D&D, if it rankles. There's more than enough other material in ACKS that makes the game rock in actual play that it's still more than worth it. A lot of the discussion here strikes me a bit like not buying a house you like because you dislike the paint in one of rooms.

My bad, no, I meant I was going to save up to pick up the PDF at the very least.  Not hold off.  Sadly, something came up and I have to spend the 'windfall' I got a week ago.  Is all.

It's still on my radar.  It'll just take a while more for me to pick it up, is all.  I'm sorry I gave the wrong impression.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;865875My bad, no, I meant I was going to save up to pick up the PDF at the very least.  Not hold off.  Sadly, something came up and I have to spend the 'windfall' I got a week ago.  Is all.

It's still on my radar.  It'll just take a while more for me to pick it up, is all.  I'm sorry I gave the wrong impression.

Oh, no worries! Anyone can obviously decide for themselves that the game is junk not worth owning. It's simply that, as a fan, I beg to differ!

Quote from: Bobloblah;865874This is pretty heavily dependant on interpretation.

This isn't really true either. Most Classes get certain fixed abilities at Levels 5, 9, and sometimes 11.

This isn't particularly the case. ACKS has a great domain system, but it doesn't assume the PCs pursue that.

We must be reading different games then called Adventurer Conqueror King.

1: Fighter Mage Cleric Thief. As well as Dwarf and Ellf (2 types each corresponding to Cyclopedia divisions.) Obviously not exact. Then there are the prestige style classes.

2: Its the same as in BX where the classes around level 9 all gain a domain style perk. That and gaining small armies or apprentices are not really part of the class as they may never come into play. The core classes effectively load in about everything up front and then build on it. Those that do not get one, maybe two widgets over the course of all those levels.

3: You are correct here. Which then by your own statement makes all those mercs and castles not a point for those classes does it?

X: Even if someone doesnt like the overall 3e+pedia format. There are still many elements that can be pulled out and applied to the whole basic series from B to BX  to BECMIpedia.

Quote from: Omega;865903We must be reading different games then called Adventurer Conqueror King.

1: Fighter Mage Cleric Thief. As well as Dwarf and Ellf (2 types each corresponding to Cyclopedia divisions.) Obviously not exact. Then there are the prestige style classes.

2: Its the same as in BX where the classes around level 9 all gain a domain style perk. That and gaining small armies or apprentices are not really part of the class as they may never come into play. The core classes effectively load in about everything up front and then build on it. Those that do not get one, maybe two widgets over the course of all those levels.

3: You are correct here. Which then by your own statement makes all those mercs and castles not a point for those classes does it?

X: Even if someone doesnt like the overall 3e+pedia format. There are still many elements that can be pulled out and applied to the whole basic series from B to BX  to BECMIpedia.

It's certainly true that the core classes are the most BX/BECM like, and the most front-loaded. But the campaign classes in ACKS are less so, and the numerous classes presented in the Player's Companion are even more varied and are definitely not front-loaded.

The Shaman, for instance, gets:
1st. Commune with spirits, totem animal (12 options)
2nd. Divine spellcasting
3rd. Spiritual ritual
5th. Shapechange, magic research (minor)
6th. Spiritwalk
9th. Medicine lodge, magic research
11th. Ritual spells

The Warlock gets:
1st. Familiar, spellcasting
2nd. Secret of the dark arts
4th. Hex
6th. Contact dark powers
7th. Magic research (minor)
8th. Alter shape
9th. Coven
10th. Summon infernal creature
13th. Magic research, necromancy
14th. Forbidden spells

The Mystic gets:
1st. Graceful fighting, meditative focus, mindful
2nd. Strength of spirit
3rd. Speed of thought
4th. Probability trance
5th. Purity of body and soul
6th. Command of voice
7th. Wholeness of body
8th. Perception of intention
9th. Monastery
10th. Harmony of spirit
14th. Perfection of body

The Witch gets:
1st. Divine spellcasting, tradition (4 options), tradition power #1
3rd. Tradition power #2, brew potions
5th. Tradition power #3, research spells
7th. Tradition power #4, scribe scrolls
9th. Coven, magic research
11th. Ritual spells

The Zaharan Ruinguard gets:
1st. Dark blessing, quickening, weapon focus
2nd. Arcane striking, spellcasting
4th. Death healing
5th. Dark charisma
9th. Spell storing, dark fortress
10th. Magic research (minor)

And all of the above are created with the same class-creation engine, which is provided in the Player's Companion so you can make your own classes to your taste.

If you want an RPG with 5E-style classes where you pick a tradition/path and that shapes which powers you accumulate over time, you can do that - the Shaman and Witch are examples. If you want to have 3E-style classes that offer a new class ability every level, you can have that - the Mystic is an example. If you want simple BX/BECMI classes, you can have that, too - the Fighter and Thief are examples.

Quote from: Omega;865903We must be reading different games then called Adventurer Conqueror King.

1: Fighter Mage Cleric Thief. As well as Dwarf and Ellf (2 types each corresponding to Cyclopedia divisions.) Obviously not exact.

Okay, as I said, this depends on interpretation, although I think that's me being generous. Saying "Most are BECMI/Pedia analogs" was extremely misleading, seeing as five out of twelve were not, and one of the remaining seven, the Assassin, requires an extremely generous interpretation of the Headsman/Thug NPC-only monster "class" in the Master set DM's book. It would not be unreasonable to say half of them are different than those in B/X and BECMI. That's completely different than what you said. Yes, it contains the classes from the BECMI Red Box (actually, they're a closer match for their B/X equivalents), but it then adds six more.

Quote from: Omega;865903Then there are the prestige style classes.

There's nothing like a Prestige Class in ACKS. Are you referring to the Fighter's Paladin/Knight/Avenger and the Cleric's Druid from the BECMI Companion set? They are really pretty different from the nearest ACKS equivalents, not least because they require you to level in the base class to 9th level first. Having played both BECMI and ACKS, I can't see any reasonable comparison that equates these with ACKS classes.

Quote from: Omega;8659032: Its the same as in BX where the classes around level 9 all gain a domain style perk. That and gaining small armies or apprentices are not really part of the class as they may never come into play. The core classes effectively load in about everything up front and then build on it. Those that do not get one, maybe two widgets over the course of all those levels.

I think Alex goes into a more detailed response to this, but I just wanted to point out that this statement seems nonsensical to me. So, we should obviously ignore high-level spells, then, seeing as a campaign might never get there. In fact, we should probably ignore 5th Level abilities, too, seeing as a campaign might never get there. In fact, we should probably ignore 2nd Level stuff because... you get the idea. Moreover, the question wasn't whether or not the classes in ACKS get something different than in B/X at every level, merely whether or not they get "widgets" at every level. They don't, but most of them get additional abilities or benefits at 5th, 9th, and sometimes 11th, while many get abilities and/or benefits in-between there, too.

You original statement was perhaps vague enough for this to be a matter of interpretation, but the points I mentioned above are factually correct. I think you're letting your prior experience with B/X and BECMI colour your judgement. Saying free mercenaries at 9th level is not a class ability because it was the same in B/X is a subjective judgement. Saying one of an ACKS' Fighters class abilities is to receive free mercenaries at 9th level when building a stronghold is an objective statement of fact. Did it work the same in B/X? More or less. So what?

I do agree that it's fair to say that ACKS classes are generally front-loaded. The fact that class abilities are prescribed and not selected (with the exception of Proficiencies) also eliminates the whole build mentality.

Quote from: Omega;8659033: You are correct here. Which then by your own statement makes all those mercs and castles not a point for those classes does it?

A Fighter might never lead anyone in battle, therefore his 5th Level ability shouldn't be a point for the class. Does that make sense to you? My initial statement around domains was that ACKS doesn't force you into them, and it doesn't, just like heavier armour is generally better for a Fighter, but the  system doesn't force you to wear it. A PC is, however, going to be, on average, more powerful if they go that route. That's both an interplay of their class abilities with the domain and mass combat systems, and the fact that bringing the resources of a domain to bear can be quite effective (e.g., thousands of gold, armies, vassals, etc.).

Quote from: Omega;865903X: Even if someone doesnt like the overall 3e+pedia format. There are still many elements that can be pulled out and applied to the whole basic series from B to BX  to BECMIpedia.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If it's that most TSR versions of the game are broadly compatible, sure. Am I misunderstanding you?

Quote from: Bobloblah;865874This isn't particularly the case. ACKS has a great domain system, but it doesn't assume the PCs pursue that.

It doesn't force PCs to pursue the domain game.  It absolutely does assume that they will.  One of the Fighter's core abilities is to add morale bonuses to henchmen and mercenaries.  Mages need to build sanctums to pursue magical research.  The section on designing a campaign setting is geared almost entirely towards creating a region where PCs will be able to establish domains.  Not to mention the title of the book - I mean, it's not called "Adventurer Adventurer Adventurer".