Big news on the AFF front with PDFs finally being authorised. You can get the corebook and the Hero's Companion on DTRPG: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186396/Advanced-Fighting-Fantasy-2nd-Ed. All others will follow, including Titan and Out of the Pit.

Also, a Sci Fi sister RPGs, Stellar Adventures, has just been out up as a KS: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2036759092/stellar-adventures. With the number of Sci Fi Fighting Fantasy books to draw on, it should be have a pretty broad coverage of the Sci Fi genres.

That"s great news! Lack of a PDF option has stopped me picking this up for a long time.

I have heard that from a lot of people. I was wondering if Titan and OotP would be left out, but it sounds like they are in

Really keen to see what FF Sci Fi rules make it into Stellar Adventures. Mecha from Robot Commando, starships from Starship Traveller, and power armour and weapons from Space Assassin

Quote from: Skywalker;905349Big news on the AFF front with PDFs finally being authorised. You can get the corebook and the Hero's Companion on DTRPG: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186396/Advanced-Fighting-Fantasy-2nd-Ed. All others will follow, including Titan and Out of the Pit.

While I think it's fantastic that these are finally becoming available, the price for the core book PDF is awfully steep, and I say that as someone who's purchased the entire line in dead-tree thus far. It suggests to me that the original license holders still have no understanding of the electronic RPG market and AFF2's place in it. Anyway, we'll see if the other two books follow suit.

Quote from: Skywalker;905422Really keen to see what FF Sci Fi rules make it into Stellar Adventures. Mecha from Robot Commando, starships from Starship Traveller, and power armour and weapons from Space Assassin

I would that's pretty much everyone's list. I can't imagine those wouldn't be included, and based on the campaign write-up and the comments posted, it certainly looks like they are.

$14 doesn't seem so bad to me TBH. Dragon Warriors is $20, Palladium Fantasy is $12.50, and D&D (RC or Moldvay) is $10.

The real issue is the fact that the PDF has come out so long after the print version so there is a lack of bundling. But Arion is bundling from here on out and is offering a PDF for anyone who bought from him direct previously.

I am hoping that the PDF release will allow for a hardcover POD of the core book. Though I am happy with softcovers for most of the books, a hardcover rulebook would be something I want.

Yeah, I think some of the issue is definitely the lack of bundling, but by no means all of it. Consider the comparison items: D&D Moldvay is one of the better selling D&D versions of all time, D&D RC is a compilation of nearly the best selling RPG product of all time (BECMI dwarfs almost everything else), and Palladium Fantasy is a bit of cult classic that has legions of dedicated Palladium fans behind it (and everything else Palladium does). Advanced Fighting Fantasy is great and all, but I can't say I think it's in anywhere near the same league as any of those three. As for Dragon Warriors at $20? ...I can't imagine what they're smoking, but it must be good. Maybe a fan of the game will drop by to defend it, but I haven't seen a credible analysis of PDF sales that makes me think you sell a lot of $20 PDFs without a massive brand behind you. Even $10 appears to be a significant barrier that starts to require name recognition to push past. And, to be clear, I'm talking about PDF-only, not bundled with a $40 hard copy, which just isn't the same thing.

I think a more accurate analysis is that D&D products have the biggest customer base and are just reprints explains their lower price. In comparison, AFF2 is a substantial revision of an existing product, which justifies the extra $4 IMO. Dragon Warriors has considerably considerable new and high quality art. It is much more a deluxe presentation of a well loved classic RPG.

I still don't think the extra $4 is out of line with similar products as said. To give more examples, Classic RQ is selling for $15 and Classic Traveller for $13.40, both of which have a lower page count and are simple reprints.

I've seen that argument made before, and, unfortunately for content producers, I think newness, reprint, or time and effort in writing has little or no impact on the price that consumers are willing to pay for a PDF. As for those other games whose PDFs you mentioned, you are again comparing PDFs of games with vastly larger audiences than AFF.

Hey, time will tell! Maybe Arion will make a bunch of coin on these - I sure hope so - but I wouldn't count on it. I think the game (i.e., AFF) might do better with a much cheaper core PDF that allows people to dip their toe into the system, or to recruit new players with.

Quote from: Bobloblah;905545I've seen that argument made before, and, unfortunately for content producers, I think newness, reprint, or time and effort in writing has little or no impact on the price that consumers are willing to pay for a PDF. As for those other games whose PDFs you mentioned, you are again comparing PDFs of games with vastly larger audiences than AFF.

It seems like a no-win situation if you use the same larger audience justification to criticise AFF's price point from both a lower price (in the case of D&D and Palladium) and a higher price (in the case of RQ and CT) perspective.

Its also worth noting that, unlike all of those products, AFF is a licenced product which has separate concerns (and with an obviously naïve licensor as to electronic products). Giving away the rulebook for a much cheaper price will certainly see an increase of units moved to some extent, but we have no idea if it would be better for Arion or even sustainable. Its easy to speculate when you have no horse in the race or any real knowledge of those licence terms. All we know is that the price is comparable to similar products in the market.

As someone who has never heard of Advanced Fighting Fantasy (at least not to my recollection anyway), and has Googled it but hasn't really found anything about the system's mechanics as it were... why would someone play Stellar Adventures over Traveller, Stars Without Number, or River of Heaven?

I'm not entirely sure how AFF works (since I am in the camp that doesn't pay $14 for a PDF) but in the old Fighting Fantasy books the system was really simple (and arguably not that great).

Basically characters have a Skill rating from 6 to 12. In combat, you and the opponent each roll 2d6 and add your skill, who gets the higher total hits. For other skills, it's roll under. Like you want to climb something and have a Skill of 10, you'd have to roll under 10 on 2d6.

Almost everything was dependent on one "Skill" ability score, which was generated by rolling 1d6 +6. There however was a luck attribute to mitigate bad rolls.

So I guess the main draw is nostalgia, or simply not liking those other systems you mentioned.

Fighting Fantasy was as a series of solo gamebooks, that were almost as instrumental as D&D in the rise of fantasy tabletop gaming in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Amongst other things, the writers were founders of both TSR UK and Games Workshop. During its run, the series dabbled in RPGs with Fighting Fantasy and then Advanced Fighting Fantasy. Though the setting was fantastic, the system always failed in translation from the solo gamebooks to a full tabletop RPG.

That was until Arion Games released AFF2 5 years ago. Arion Games took the system and made it an excellent and robust system, without moving it far from its origin. There are many positive reviews of the system around the place including here: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?20577-Advanced-Fighting-Fantasy.

So why Stellar Adventures? TBH we haven't see even a manuscript for the book, so its hard to do much more than extrapolate from AFF2 and the science fiction Fighting Fantasy books that it will no doubt draw on. It will likely have a significant overlap to other sci fi RPGs with similar vibe, like those you mention. However, as a stab, here are a few things that I expect will likely stand out :

1. The system is simple yet robust, even simpler than the RPGs you mention.
2. The system is classless, effectively being a pure a skill based system.
3. It has great accessibility for non-RPGers, given that was the initial target for FF books, and the solo gamebooks allows for an effective springboard (if you can find them).
4. The artwork, if from the FF books on which it draws, will be outstanding.
5. I expect the vibe to much brighter than the three you mention. Though the sci fi FF books covered noir mysteries, political thrillers, and Star Trek like space journeys, they all had a wonderful 80s adventurous tone.
6. This is a guess, but again if the FF books on which it draws are anything to go by, and as the system is simple, it should be easy to cover a wide breadth of sci fi genres.

Quote from: JeremyR;905577I'm not entirely sure how AFF works (since I am in the camp that doesn't pay $14 for a PDF) but in the old Fighting Fantasy books the system was really simple (and arguably not that great).

The system has been modified considerably from the solo gamebooks. A more robust system was added to the base system in the Riddling Reaver in 1986 and this became Advanced Fighting Fantasy in the late 80s in a book called Dungeoneer. This system added the kinds of things you would expect from a tabletop RPG such as a layer of skills, differentiated weapons and armour, added magic and races etc. However, it still wasn't great as there were quite a number of balance issues. These issues have all been resolved in AFF2 that Arion Games has now released on PDF. Stellar Adventures will be based on AFF2.

As such, Skill for a starting PC is rated between 4 to 7, and you add on top of that skills. Skill is effectively D&D's level. Despite this better balancing and allowance for advancement, the base system is the same with PCs rolling 2d6 and rolling equal to or under their Skill.

FWIW there is a free Quickstart here: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/108092/Advanced-Fighting-Fantasy-Quickstart

Quote from: Skywalker;905555It seems like a no-win situation if you use the same larger audience justification to criticise AFF's price point from both a lower price (in the case of D&D and Palladium) and a higher price (in the case of RQ and CT) perspective.

I haven't done that. I've said nothing about the specific spread amongst the prices listed, I've only commented on the upper limits of what a game is likely to be able to get. I think that mostly isn't determined by the things a publisher would like it to be determined by (e.g., writing effort, cost of art, page count, new vs. reprint, etc.). I think AFF's pricing is pushing the upper limit for what it is and the audience it has, and I think it's unfortunate because I believe it will actually hinder growing the game (and probably lose sales to piracy).

Quote from: Skywalker;905555Its also worth noting that, unlike all of those products, AFF is a licenced product which has separate concerns (and with an obviously naïve licensor as to electronic products). Giving away the rulebook for a much cheaper price will certainly see an increase of units moved to some extent, but we have no idea if it would be better for Arion or even sustainable. Its easy to speculate when you have no horse in the race or any real knowledge of those licence terms. All we know is that the price is comparable to similar products in the market.

I am aware of all of this. Maybe you didn't read my first post in the thread?

Quote from: Bobloblah;905512It suggests to me that the original license holders still have no understanding of the electronic RPG market and AFF2's place in it.

I don't blame Arion; I think the fault rests squarely with the license holders (Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone). As I said, I don't think they have any real sense of the electronic RPG market, and I think that has already hurt AFF2 in how long it's taken them to even have PDFs of the core books. Regardless, I hope it works out for Arion going forward, as AFF is a great lightweight old-school system, and Arion has put out great material for it. I'll definitely be backing the Stellar Adventures Kickstarter.

That's fantastic news!  I look forward to seeing this product.

Now, I wonder if we'll ever get something with the material from the ultra-rare Allansia book?