Quote from: apparition13;680120People who are naturally athletic tend to learn sports faster than those who aren't?

All right, that's one explanation. I find that justifications that goes the other way around - mechanic X justify fact Y that is desired about the setting - sounds more relevant. Like "Since we want a game world where humans prevail, and demihumans have many perks, we need level caps to explain why elves/dwarves/etc.. are not prevalent." I might be nitpicking.

Quote from: boulet;680125All right, that's one explanation. I find that justifications that goes the other way around - mechanic X justify fact Y that is desired about the setting - sounds more relevant. Like "Since we want a game world where humans prevail, and demihumans have many perks, we need level caps to explain why elves/dwarves/etc.. are not prevalent." I might be nitpicking.

There are definitely campaign based expectations embedded into the game.

We've discussed elsewhere how hit points might not be all physical but may also have a large luck element. The level limitations may be another reflection of divine favoritism that now is the Age of Men.

This discussion made me go back and look at the explanations from pages 14 -> 17 about race and class in DMG 2nd edition. Very interesting, and detailing about what expectations are (and that DMs should feel free to ignore them).

double xp requirements for demi humans.
or to be more fine tuned set a multiplierbased on race so say elves are three timed and hobbits 1.5.
this limits demi humans but in real terms only a level or two below the human.
alsi promotes the human as fast learner meme compared to the ponderous long lived races

Two alternatives to some of the above.

1. Create individual classes for each race - each requiring more experience per level perhaps. That is an Elven fighter, perhaps slightly different to a human fighter, with less armor and weapon availability. A Dwarf fighter; similar still but who won't retreat and so and so forth for each class variant.

2. Play RuneQuest/BRP

Quote from: elfandghost;680134Play RuneQuest/BRP

Normally I'd be inclined to do just this.

But I'm thinking of running a classic AnD game online for some friends, using a few of my old modules.

Quote from: LordVreeg;680116I had to go the other direction.
In my last years of playing the game, I had instituted a penalty instead of a hard cap.  I don't have my notes right now, but I seem to remember adding on 5% per level over the cap for demi humans, with a maximum of 60%.  It was a decent patch and incentivized players to see the benefit of going human.

Yeah, I previously had thought of simply imposing a 50% on experience points earned *after* the level limit had been reached.

Perhaps something like this would be the easiest solution overall...

Best alternative to demihuman racial limits is to give Humans bonuses that make them attractive to play. As it stands, they're the only race not allowed to multiclass and one of two races that doesn't have some ability to see in the dark.

What I'd recommend doing is letting Humans multiclass normally, between any two or three classes they qualify for, and giving them a 10% XP bonus. When I play AD&D, I usually lobby for Player's Option, so I'd say an extra CP or two per level is also justified.

Quote from: elfandghost;680134Two alternatives to some of the above.

1. Create individual classes for each race - each requiring more experience per level perhaps. That is an Elven fighter, perhaps slightly different to a human fighter, with less armor and weapon availability. A Dwarf fighter; similar still but who won't retreat and so and so forth for each class variant.

This is the sauce. If I were more ambitious, I'd do something like this-- no level limits, no MC restrictions, race-as-class for demihumans, and demihumans can multiclass into a limited, unique selection of 'normal' classes.

If I were feeling really ambitious, I'd include demihuman-only classes for each race.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;680167This is the sauce. If I were more ambitious, I'd do something like this-- no level limits, no MC restrictions, race-as-class for demihumans, and demihumans can multiclass into a limited, unique selection of 'normal' classes.

If I were feeling really ambitious, I'd include demihuman-only classes for each race.

I think it would work well. I'd actually like a retro-clone to attempt it. You could then apply the level-limits to the human classes - saying that the limits are there because they have to work in human circles or human ways of working that are unnatural to demi-humans.

Sample High Elf classes:

Guardians: As fighter with weapon restrictions, medium armor only. Perhaps morale conduct that prevents certain actions.
Weavers: As Magic-Users, but restricted to using certain spells - non Necromantic type, none detructive.

BASICALLY: Playtest, playtest. The best way to find out how incentives really work is to leave it to players!

Quote from: Akrasia;679712They get the spell 'slots' for higher-level spells as they progress, but they must fill those slots with lower level spells.

There are sound reasons why number of spells *of a given level* castable is limited, and why those limits were reduced in AD&D from their OD&D values.

This is a common problem with "spell point" systems that take no account of the placement in the standard lists of remarkably powerful spells at low levels.

QuoteFinally, demi-human fighters do not found new strongholds and lands of their own.

This is arguably a stretch more than just on the order of "MUs don't use armor, or weapons other than those permitted their profession." Acceptability presumably depends on the combination of how you rationalize it, and what particular players are prepared to swallow.

Quote from: Phillip;680221There are sound reasons why number of spells *of a given level* castable is limited, and why those limits were reduced in AD&D from their OD&D values.

This is a common problem with "spell point" systems that take no account of the placement in the standard lists of remarkably powerful spells at low levels.

I think that you may have misread my proposal.  The idea was that higher level spell 'slots' could only be filled by *lower* level spells.  E.g. An elf magic-user would have to fill his level 6 'slots' with spells levels 1-5.

When I DM, level limits are tossed into the scrap heap. Don't want 'em, and don't need 'em.

Quote from: Akrasia;680163Yeah, I previously had thought of simply imposing a 50% on experience points earned *after* the level limit had been reached.

Perhaps something like this would be the easiest solution overall...

It worked.
I went skill based ultimately for most of my games, but when I used it, it seemed to work.  The accumulating thing (5% per level) made more sense for some of the other, non elven issues, as well.

I have not found level limits to be 'game breaking'

However, I have, at times over the years, house ruled level limits.  

1) Ignore level limits. Easiest option.

2) Earned xp halved after level limit reached

3) Demi humans other than half orcs get one extra 'class' to divide
 xp among. Essentially this is assuming the racial bonuses are roughly as useful as being mutilassed.

Ultimately I don't think worring about level limits is worth it.

If it ain't broke.  Don't fix it.