Quote from: Drohem;741775I would offer that, perhaps, the approach of expecting to play a great warrior before the dice are rolled is self-defeating when using random rolls to generate ability scores for a game.  Perhaps a less irritating approach would be to hope to play a great warrior after the ability scores have been determined and the scores even warrant the hope of becoming a great warrior.

I understand what you are say, believe me, but the approach of having expectations of your character prior to rolling ability scores when using random rolls to determine the ability scores is only going to lead to disappoint when the actual rolls don't meet the preconceived expectations.  Once I switched my view to developing my character after I have determined the ability scores randomly I have become much more happy with the characters created.

When I play, there are usually two things that drive what I want before dice are rolled:

* what type of PC do I want to play
* what is everyone else playing so I can round out the group.

Luckily for me, I'm rarely tied down to one particular class that I like.  There's always a couple that I find appealing.  Like right now, I'd like to play either a fighter, druid, paladin, or mage, in that order.  If I'm joining a group that already has a bunch of fighters, I'll go druid or mage and still be happy.

But even for those people who do like one or maybe two classes only, choosing the class before you roll is still not a problem in post TSR D&D.  There are no stat reqs in 5e.  So literally there is nothing stopping me from playing any class I want after dice are rolled.

That being said, if you only roll 3d6 in order, it can be irritating to want to play a fighter but end up with a 7 in strength while you have a 15 in intelligence.  But that is not an indictment against rolling for stats like so many people want to make it out to be.  Hardly anyone plays with 3d6 in order and that's it.  Most people I played with did 4d6 drop lowest, and at the very least, assigned in order even if they did only 3d6.

so on that note, I guess I disagree that one shouldn't choose the type of PC they want to play before dice are rolled.  I think that's normal.

QuoteBut seriously, how often it is the case where one person at the table rolls completely superior rolls to everyone else at the table to the point where that one character completely outshines and outperforms every other character at the table?  Sure, maybe it happens once every blue moon.  But, more likely than not, it is an Internet meme.

I don't ever recalling this happening in over 30 years when it couldn't be explained as the player just being a twat.

Quote from: Drohem;741775I would offer that, perhaps, the approach of expecting to play a great warrior before the dice are rolled is self-defeating when using random rolls to generate ability scores for a game.  Perhaps a less irritating approach would be to hope to play a great warrior after the ability scores have been determined and the scores even warrant the hope of becoming a great warrior.

I understand what you are say, believe me, but the approach of having expectations of your character prior to rolling ability scores when using random rolls to determine the ability scores is only going to lead to disappoint when the actual rolls don't meet the preconceived expectations.  Once I switched my view to developing my character after I have determined the ability scores randomly I have become much more happy with the characters created.

But seriously, how often it is the case where one person at the table rolls completely superior rolls to everyone else at the table to the point where that one character completely outshines and outperforms every other character at the table?  Sure, maybe it happens once every blue moon.  But, more likely than not, it is an Internet meme.

I agree, it is rare. But people concerned with such, are trying to avoid it before it happens.

As for not wanting a great warrior before you roll, that's not really applicable.
The 'weaker' character way still be a great warrior, he just has clark kent in his party.

There are plenty of people that want uber stats, and get jealous of other characters higher stats.

I like the sexy danger of "in order", whether 3d6 or 4d6.

I like the earlier poster's 2d6 idea. When I start my Gamma World/Mutant Future solo game, I'm doing each stat, in order: Roll d20.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741784so on that note, I guess I disagree that one shouldn't choose the type of PC they want to play before dice are rolled.  I think that's normal.

Quote from: Bill;741791As for not wanting a great warrior before you roll, that's not really applicable.
The 'weaker' character way still be a great warrior, he just has clark kent in his party.

Honestly, we're all on the same page as I agree with both statements above.  My point was not to be so invested in a character concept before random ability scores are generated when using that method to determine ability scores.  

Sure, I have some tentative ideas about the type of character that I want to create before I roll the dice, but I will adjust according to the actual outcome of the dice rolls and ability score assignment.  

I am not presenting black-and-white ideas here; I am just saying that you need to be fluid and flexible when using random rolls to generate ability scores in creating a character based upon actual dice roll results.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741784When I play, there are usually two things that drive what I want before dice are rolled:

* what type of PC do I want to play
* what is everyone else playing so I can round out the group.

Luckily for me, I'm rarely tied down to one particular class that I like.  There's always a couple that I find appealing.  Like right now, I'd like to play either a fighter, druid, paladin, or mage, in that order.  If I'm joining a group that already has a bunch of fighters, I'll go druid or mage and still be happy.

But even for those people who do like one or maybe two classes only, choosing the class before you roll is still not a problem in post TSR D&D.  There are no stat reqs in 5e.  So literally there is nothing stopping me from playing any class I want after dice are rolled.

That being said, if you only roll 3d6 in order, it can be irritating to want to play a fighter but end up with a 7 in strength while you have a 15 in intelligence.  But that is not an indictment against rolling for stats like so many people want to make it out to be.  Hardly anyone plays with 3d6 in order and that's it.  Most people I played with did 4d6 drop lowest, and at the very least, assigned in order even if they did only 3d6.

so on that note, I guess I disagree that one shouldn't choose the type of PC they want to play before dice are rolled.  I think that's normal.



I don't ever recalling this happening in over 30 years when it couldn't be explained as the player just being a twat.

I have seen it, and I believe it is subjective whether or not the players were being 'twats' or not. People just do not enjoy the same things.

Quote from: Bill;741828I have seen it, and I believe it is subjective whether or not the players were being 'twats' or not. People just do not enjoy the same things.

What I mean is, is that I don't ever really recall a situation where one player was just dominating the entire game because he rolled well for char gen, and the few times I ever heard someone complain about it, they were being a twat because the lack of their PC impact was not related to another player's good rolls, but because they just wanted to hack and slash and do the most damage and that was it.

There are SOOOOOO many ways to get players involved in an RPG other than vanilla combat, that if you can't get players contributing low stats or no, that's either you sucking as a DM, or them sucking as a player.

Part of the problem is that the average gamer really doesnt give a fuck about if that character over there has better stats or not.

Its the people online bitching about it. And odds are good that 50% or more have never actually played the game in question and are just bitching because someone else might get a +1 to hit and they didnt. And they would not have been bitching if their character had been the one with the great stats.

Or on rare occasions someone trying to force their "one true way" on others. And that could be roll in order, point buy, tiddlywinks at 30 paces. AD&D gives you lots of options and yet still someone will try to force one way and one way only. That is all fine at your table and your group. Go with that you and the group is comfortable with. Just dont insult someone for liking some other method. Unless they are insulting about it.

I think most of us have at least given several different stat gen methods a whirl at some point.

Right now I am working through The Fantasy Trip's system which is a defined minimum of 8 in 3 stats and then 8 points to spend. That is pretty far removed from random rolls and has a very different dynamic since the stats define combat.

Quote from: Omega;741896Its the people online bitching about it. And odds are good that 50% or more have never actually played the game in question and are just bitching because someone else might get a +1 to hit and they didnt. And they would not have been bitching if their character had been the one with the great stats.

Winnah!!!    I have seen way more of this crap online than I have in RL (not counting some pre-teen days)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;741829What I mean is, is that I don't ever really recall a situation where one player was just dominating the entire game because he rolled well for char gen, and the few times I ever heard someone complain about it, they were being a twat because the lack of their PC impact was not related to another player's good rolls, but because they just wanted to hack and slash and do the most damage and that was it.

There are SOOOOOO many ways to get players involved in an RPG other than vanilla combat, that if you can't get players contributing low stats or no, that's either you sucking as a DM, or them sucking as a player.

Agreed.
But When a player cares most about, say, his warrior ability, it can be a problem.
I would be overjoyed if every player preferred non combat elements, but I like everyone to have fun.
I see a fairly large number of players that roleplay to some extent but are really motivated by combat.

QuoteWhen I play, there are usually two things that drive what I want before dice are rolled:

* what type of PC do I want to play
* what is everyone else playing so I can round out the group.

This is exactly what I do. The majority of the time it's the second choice.

Quote from: Bill;741587I personally enjoy rolling in order and breathing a character to life based on the fickle hand of fate.

But I have seen players that pop a blood vessel because they can't have the exact character they want.

That can happen with some players who were used to either point-buy systems or the extreme personalization of 3e (god forbid 4e!).  

However, after a bit of time they get used to it, and can get encouraged when they figure out that the process isn't some kind of restriction or punishment, but rather a way to encourage creativity.  Instead of playing what comes to your head, you start with a set of stats and from there have to think up what kind of character will suit them.  This allows people to come up with characters they would never ever think of if they're told "just pick something yourself".

Well said ^^

I've really begun to embrace this philosophy every time I game!